4 Strings Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Ok, if it aint bust, don't fix it. I agree. I am happy with my Streamliner, even now take it for granted. But.... I've read a few comments about improving on the stock valves in a Genz Benz Streamliner. One person sped up the 'warm-up' phase which was getting longer with the originals, another achieved a different sound. It seems GB sort of encourage swapping them by maintaining the guarantee despite valve changes and making it practically easy to do. I have no use for the massively overdriven sound available on my STL 900 and would be happy for a more defined sound and less overdrive - even being able to tap into more power before the overdriven sound appears. Has anyone changed the valves in their Streamliner? Any effect at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voxpop Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 You could swap out the ecc83 valves for ecc81, which is around 70% of the gain of the 83. Upgrading the valves for old stock / vintage will improve the sound as all new valves are poor IMO. Expect to pay up to £40 each for quality vintage valves.... It is worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamfist Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 I put a NOS JAN Philips 5751 into V1 of my 900 (now residing elswhere). Definately made a positive difference. It made the (huge) low end a little tighter and more controllable. Also lowered the, already low, noise floor a tiny bit. The valve was about £30 from Watford Valves. Never tried changing any of the others. V1 is always the most important though as changes at the beginning of the signal are amplified all the way through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 I still have tons of old valves I can sell some of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted November 8, 2012 Author Share Posted November 8, 2012 V1 seems to be the valve in which I'm most interested as its the over-drive valve (V2 and V3, I understand, drive the tone control). If I use a lower gain valve will this also reduce the level of the signal to the rest of the amp, ie give the impression of a loss of power or will it still give the same signal level but with less over-drive? If so, this is what I want. (£30 is probably more than I want to spend to try that out though!) There are three 12AX7 valves, if I replace V1 with a 12AU7 (apparently ~50% of the gain) or a 12AT7 (apparently 70% of the gain) what's likely to be the effect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbytodd Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 keeping an eye on this topic.ive thought about valve swapping in my streamliner but i was waiting for someone else to do it first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamfist Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 [quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1352386631' post='1862441'] V1 seems to be the valve in which I'm most interested as its the over-drive valve (V2 and V3, I understand, drive the tone control). If I use a lower gain valve will this also reduce the level of the signal to the rest of the amp, ie give the impression of a loss of power or will it still give the same signal level but with less over-drive? If so, this is what I want. (£30 is probably more than I want to spend to try that out though!) There are three 12AX7 valves, if I replace V1 with a 12AU7 (apparently ~50% of the gain) or a 12AT7 (apparently 70% of the gain) what's likely to be the effect? [/quote] If you stick in a lower gain valve in V1, then yes you will reduce the potential output from that gain stage (or gain stag[u][b]es[/b][/u] as there are 2 in each 12A*7). However, the streamliner pre-amp is designed to have more than enough extra gain at other stages in the pre-amp to compensate. My actual experience with the streamliner, with the 5751 (70% of the gain of an AX7) in V1, was that I did not perceive any drop in volume in the amp at all. It ALWAYS had way, way more than I could use. The 5751 also enabled plenty of OD in the pre-amp if that was wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted November 9, 2012 Author Share Posted November 9, 2012 Ok, two valves from Mr Foxen on their way. To keep in line with Voxpop they are old Mullard valves, there's one 12AU7 and one 12AT7. I will only be playing with V1. I'll report back. In the meantime please pray I don't break anything, I love this amp and certainly cannot afford another! If there's no improvement the valves will act as spares Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 (edited) Valvwes arrived double quick time, tried the ECC82, huge drop in gain (no fuzz no matter what I tried, even from my MM) and now has the ECC81 in. I will report back after rehearsals tonight. However, my comments will be in the context that I nearly didn't buy the Streamliner as Genz used the following nonsense in his advert for it, [i]'Our 3DPM™ adds heft and girth to each individual note, while enhancing the amplifiers responsiveness and headroom. It provides the dynamic and 3 dimensional tone and feel of an all tube power amp design.'[/i] Mine is being used for a bass guitar and so there will be no 3 dimensions to anything. If others can hear this sort of thing then they will be more qualified to comment on the subtleties of tone than me. However, I'm pretty familiar with my set up now and so hope make some useful comment. Edited December 20, 2012 by 4 Strings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 Rehearsal tonight, ECC81 on board, apparently around 70% of the gain of the original ECC83. Trying to stay aware of the sound and settings of my amp. I first thought I'd lost some of the depth of sound, but it was fine. I have lost some overall volume, but not much. The Streamliner has 'Gain', 'Volume' and 'Master' controls and a 'Gain' button. Wind the Gain knob much past 1 O'Clock and overdrive becomes apparent. Press the 'Gain' button and this doubles to extreme. Push the Gain all the way and you have a howling distortion of which a metal guitarist would be proud. Pointless for my purposes. I kept it in the 12 O'Clock position and the Gain button out of bounds. In fact all the controls care normally set at that position. With the ECC81 in place the Gain can be sent almost all the way round before any distortion. Or, it could stay in the 12 O'Clock and press the Gian button for a huge jump in output but still quite clean. For me, this is much better. For my regular use, I now need the Gain at around 2 O'Clock for the same output and decibels as 12 O'Clock with the standard valve. But I can now have the whole thing aggressively loud without distortion becoming the dominant feature. When the distortion does arrive its more subtle and, (I think, although I can't keep A-B'ing) smoother. A actually quite like a little distortion now, I didn't before. Rather like the distortion if you listen to JJ isolated tracks. This is good as we play Motown and soul. I won't be using it, even if its nice to know I still have the option. For me this is an improvement, makes my amp more useful (although those sorts of volume levels have limited use if you want to stay friends with your band members!) and easier to control at the expense of a little loss in max output (which has never been approached). The other improvement is a Streamliner thing. If you drive the 'Volume' into the output section too hard you get a horrible clicking sort of distortion which tells you all is not well, back it off. That no longer occurs. The Gain button now acts as a boost button for stadium gigs! I'm keeping the ECC81 and I'm happy it has brought about an improvement for my purposes. The original can be my spare, the ECC82 (which has the least gain of the three) reduced the output way too much for no real advantage in control of distortion. If you don't want the extent of distortion the standard set up gives, I can recommend the ECC31 as a replacement in V1. I now feel I have a more powerful and useful amp. Just for the record, original V1 is a JJ valve, V2 and V3 are identical Rubies. No idea why they are different. Thanks to Mr Foxen for the valves at a reasonable price, tested and beautifully packed and delivered next day. Anyone want to buy a Mullard ECC82? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted December 12, 2012 Author Share Posted December 12, 2012 Just to continue with the impression over time, I am more convinced that this has been a worthwhile modification and have had no temptation to go back to stock. It seems like the amp has lost power as the first as the Gain knob has to be turned a little further for the same output but the lack of distortion with use of the Gain knob and the Gain button make the amp far more useful. Indeed with the Gain button engaged it becomes phenomenally powerful whereas before it became distorted. Plenty of distortion still there if you want it (button in, knob more than 75% round) but way more power available without it. Similar experience to Hamfist. Very happy, can recommend an ECC81 in V1 position unless howling distortion is what you need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul S Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Is this an easy thing to do for people (ie - me) who have never before even opened up the inside of an amp, let along fiddled with it? It sounds like exactly the thing I should like to do, but am hesitant to try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Pre valves are plug and play, but how easy they are to get at is up to the amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul S Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Hmm, I have just sent you a PM.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted December 12, 2012 Author Share Posted December 12, 2012 Peasy Just unscrew the Allen screws in the top plate cover, which then simply lifts off. V1 is the one on the left hand side. Gently ease it out (slightly side to side movement) and then gently ease in the new one (same way). Gasp at the technology. Replace cover and screws, plug and play. Be interested if your three valves are a mixture of Ruby and JJ too. Be also interested in your impression of the result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul S Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 For sure. I like the idea of a more useable gain. I do use it for what I do, but having it toned down a bit sounds ideal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrig Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 What would happen if I swapped all three valves with [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]ECC81's?[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Would it change the sound completey?[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Please go easy on me, if this is a stupid question.[/font][/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Massively depends on what they all do. Probably lose lots of gain, and mess with eq centers if there is valve driven eq. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 Using ECC81s in all places will, no doubt reduce the output to the power amp section and, as the eq is valve driven, I suspect alter the tone and response of the controls. The job of V1 is (in my very limited understanding of these things) different in that it sort of prepares the signal for the tone section of the amp whereas the V2 and V3 valves operate the tone control circuits. What were you looking for in changing those other valves? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul S Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Well, I just did the transplant. You are right - even a technophobe like me could manage it in 5 minutes. The trickiest bit was finding an allen key that fitted! In all the excitement I forgot to look at your post and hence didn't have a look at the original 3 valves - the one I have removed says JJ. On the basis that I should quit whilst ahead I won't take the cover off again but, with the amp switched on, I can see through the window at the front that the middle valve says Ruby on it - the one on the right doesn't so I guess it is different? My wife is at work, so I was able to give it a bit of a run just now, having first noodled around before the change to keep the sound fresh in my mind. OK, not at gigging or rehearsal level but loud-ish. My impressions are *exactly* as you have detailed. More useable volume without distortion, even if the actual volume is decreased. For my purposes - classic rock rather than metal - I have more than enough of an edge to the sound so the loss in gain is not a problem. W ith a P-Bass fitted with SDP-1 pups it gives the same warmth to the tone and glassiness to the highs that it did before, but as you have greater sweep before the distiortion cuts in it is more controllable. The change is more noticeable wiith my SBMM SB-14, which is aggressive as heck with massive output - I used to find I had to dial off the gain a lot but, as with the P-Bass, there is now a greater range of useable space on the gain control. So - a huge thank you, 4strings, for getting me a tiny step further towards 'gear nirvana', whatever that is. And to Mr Foxen for getting the valve off to me so promptly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted December 16, 2012 Author Share Posted December 16, 2012 Anyone else before I start my commission negotiations with Mr Foxen! Next step to Nirvana involves a little speaker cab manufacturer down near Brighton! (Just used a Midget T yesterday for a huge hall (25x10seater tables) and filled the place with an overcoming amount of deep, Motown bass from backline only. Unbelievable little device.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul S Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Aha! I'm ahead of you on that one, at least. It is hard to oversell the barefaced kit, IMO. I have a Compact and a Midget and those two purchases have been the single most significant improvement in my sound. And overall health of my lumbar region. Either, on its own, is superb. Together they are the mutts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted December 17, 2012 Author Share Posted December 17, 2012 Erm, you don't use a Stingray do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul S Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Not quite - a 'Sterling By Musicman SB-14'. One of the herd, anyway, and very nice it is too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted December 17, 2012 Author Share Posted December 17, 2012 Phew, thought you were me for a minute! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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