New valves for Genz Streamliner - any experience?

[tonyf]

Here's an abject lesson in NEVER reading internet forums when you're in a blissful state of Gear Happiness Syndrome. Now thinking of tinkering with my STM 900 now!

To be honest, my Streamliner is a spectacularly good amp. Been so happy with it. In terms of setup, I tend to leave it fairly flat ish most of the time. Bass at 12 o'clock, mids at about 1 o'clock, top end opened up a bit. Mid band set to 2.5k and the gain section ALWAYS engaged to bring in a tiny bit of breakup but no so much as you'd call dirt. With my EBS Proline 410, it's lovely, full, articulate and punchy. However, the only minor issue I have is that it's always a little less than tight on the bottom end. Not boomy, but not tight. Someone mentioned the word "

Would changing the V1 for a [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]NOS JAN Philips 5751 be a reasonable step? Hamfist mentioned "[/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]low end a little tighter and more controllable". That's kinda what I'm after, particularly as I've recently started doing more pop/funk projects and less RAWK stuff.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]T[/font][/color]

[Paul S]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1355786767' post='1902856']
Phew, thought you were me for a minute!
[/quote]

We are.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='Paul S' timestamp='1355827476' post='1903146']
We are.
[/quote]

[4 Strings]

[quote name='tonyf' timestamp='1355824175' post='1903083']
Here's an abject lesson in NEVER reading internet forums when you're in a blissful state of Gear Happiness Syndrome. Now thinking of tinkering with my STM 900 now!

To be honest, my Streamliner is a spectacularly good amp. Been so happy with it. In terms of setup, I tend to leave it fairly flat ish most of the time. Bass at 12 o'clock, mids at about 1 o'clock, top end opened up a bit. Mid band set to 2.5k and the gain section ALWAYS engaged to bring in a tiny bit of breakup but no so much as you'd call dirt. With my EBS Proline 410, it's lovely, full, articulate and punchy. However, the only minor issue I have is that it's always a little less than tight on the bottom end. Not boomy, but not tight. Someone mentioned the word "

Would changing the V1 for a [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]NOS JAN Philips 5751 be a reasonable step? Hamfist mentioned "[/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]low end a little tighter and more controllable". That's kinda what I'm after, particularly as I've recently started doing more pop/funk projects and less RAWK stuff.[/font][/color]
[/quote]

That Jan-Phillips valve is the equivalent of an ECC83 or ATX7 which is the same spec as the standard V1 and so the differences are going to be subtle. I have no experience of this sort of substitution, perhaps someone else might chime in.

Watford valves say,
[i]"The Philips 5751 is a superbly warm and rich sounding 5751 type.[/i]
[i]The valve has a lower amplification of 70 mu as opposed to a 100 mu of a ECC83/12AX7. This makes it harder for the valve to distort and therefore an ideal choice when the best clean sound is required. The Philips 5751 is a great valve to use in Fender Hot rod series of amplifiers as it tames the fuzzy more drive setting.It also works well in the front end of any amplifier if gain reduction and clarity are your aims." [/i]


This seems to be what you're after, be very interested in the results.

[skychaserhigh]

The streamliner is a fantastic amp , if you like it now just leave it alone. From past experience of other amps , I think any differences from changing valves will be very subtle and you probably wouldn't notice in a band mix.

[4 Strings]

Changing valves of the same spec, absolutely.

[GRAHAM SG1]

I exchanged my V1 for a Phillips JAN 5751 and agree with the comments, it seems smoother and more manageable .

[4 Strings]

Another satisfied customer! I hope the worldwide valve market is prepared for the new demand for ECC81/12AT7s!

(Another Barefaced user too, is a Streamliner and a BF cab the perfect combination?)

[4 Strings]

For what its worth, I described this mod to Jeff Genz and got the following:


[i]"Hello Greg,[/i]

[i]Your experiment sounds like it is a true winner for your needs.[/i]

[i]The ability to modify to tonal characteristics of the Streamliner by swapping tubes is part of the beauty of this design.[/i]

[i]I think your choice of a 12AT7 in V1 makes perfect sense.[/i]

[i]Thank you for commenting and we appreciate you continued to play GB.[/i]

[i]Regards,[/i]

[i]Jeff"[/i]

[Budbear]

There's a 16 page thread on this very subject on Talk Bass. Lots of opinions, some quite intelligent and informative:

[url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/genz-benz-streamliner-tube-rolling-796088/"]http://www.talkbass....rolling-796088/[/url]

I've re-tubed my own Streamliner with a NOS Jan Phillips 5751 in the V1 position and found that it noticeably tightened up the bass response without significantly reducing volume. A 12AT7/ECC81 has even less gain (60mu) than a 5751 (70mu) and a 12AU7/ECC82 (19mu) is pretty useless in a MI preamp and is best saved for home hi-fi aficionados.
I also replaced the V2 & V3 with some old RCA 7025's (those are military spec 12AX7/ECC83's) which are subtly warmer and quieter, but in a loud band situation are indistinguishable from the stock tubes/valves.
I also push it all into a Barefaced Compact (soon to be joined by a Midget). Mercy, mercy me, it does sound so very good. Warm, deep, huge and punchy tone no matter how loud you go and stays that way up until the police arrive.

Edited December 21, 2012 by Budbear

[4 Strings]

Oh, no, not another one, you don't use a Musicman as well do you?

[Budbear]

Yes, I do. A '96 Sterling. However, I have hot-rodded it with a Nordstrand MM4.4 and an Aggie OBP-3 with the midrange tuned to 250 Hz. I'm also prone to show up with some variety of a P or J or a Warwick Flashback or Star Bass. It depends on the gig and my mood.

[4 Strings]

Seems to be a theme forming, MM to GB to BF. Anyone else with this chain?

[tonyf]

[quote name='Budbear' timestamp='1356125184' post='1907289']
There's a 16 page thread on this very subject on Talk Bass. Lots of opinions, some quite intelligent and informative:

[url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/genz-benz-streamliner-tube-rolling-796088/"]http://www.talkbass....rolling-796088/[/url]

I've re-tubed my own Streamliner with a NOS Jan Phillips 5751 in the V1 position and found that it noticeably tightened up the bass response without significantly reducing volume. A 12AT7/ECC81 has even less gain (60mu) than a 5751 (70mu) and a 12AU7/ECC82 (19mu) is pretty useless in a MI preamp and is best saved for home hi-fi aficionados.
I also replaced the V2 & V3 with some old RCA 7025's (those are military spec 12AX7/ECC83's) which are subtly warmer and quieter, but in a loud band situation are indistinguishable from the stock tubes/valves.
I also push it all into a Barefaced Compact (soon to be joined by a Midget). Mercy, mercy me, it does sound so very good. Warm, deep, huge and punchy tone no matter how loud you go and stays that way up until the police arrive.
[/quote]

I've read that thread a couple of times and agreed, there's some great stuff in there. I've ordered a NOS Jan Phillips 5751 from Watford Valves so I'll stick that in V1 and see what happens.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='tonyf' timestamp='1358348497' post='1937467']
I've read that thread a couple of times and agreed, there's some great stuff in there. I've ordered a NOS Jan Phillips 5751 from Watford Valves so I'll stick that in V1 and see what happens.
[/quote]

Let us know. I would expect it to have less of the effect of changing type to an ECC81.

[Teobass88]

Hey everyone!

I'm going to do a similar substition too.

I'd like to have less distortion and more clarity, keepin' the sound warm and punchy.
As I read I've to take a ECC81/12AT7. Am I right?

And what could be the best valve to buy in this case?

Here's my possibilities [url="http://www.musiclandia.eu.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1813_3025_975_1285"]http://www.musicland...3_3025_975_1285[/url]

Here's the 12AT results: http://www.musiclandia.eu.com/index.php?keyword=12AT&x=0&y=0&main_page=advanced_search


Sorry if I'm asking something stupid..I'm new in the "valve camp"! Thanks a lot!

Edited February 12, 2013 by Teobass88

[Mr. Foxen]

Best valve would be a used tested vintage one from, uh, someone.

[Paul S]

And that someone would be Mr Foxen himself. Lightening quick service, good price, lots of advice.




Cheque in post, Oli, usual rates?

[Budbear]

[quote name='Teobass88' timestamp='1360661159' post='1974017']
Sorry if I'm asking something stupid..I'm new in the "valve camp"! Thanks a lot!
[/quote]

The only stupid questions are the ones you already know the answers to.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='Teobass88' timestamp='1360661159' post='1974017']
Hey everyone!

I'm going to do a similar substition too.

I'd like to have less distortion and more clarity, keepin' the sound warm and punchy.
As I read I've to take a ECC81/12AT7. Am I right?

And what could be the best valve to buy in this case?

Here's my possibilities [url="http://www.musiclandia.eu.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1813_3025_975_1285"]http://www.musicland...3_3025_975_1285[/url]

Here's the 12AT results: [url="http://www.musiclandia.eu.com/index.php?keyword=12AT&x=0&y=0&main_page=advanced_search"]http://www.musicland...advanced_search[/url]


Sorry if I'm asking something stupid..I'm new in the "valve camp"! Thanks a lot!
[/quote]

In my very personal opinion any 12AT7 (ECC81) will do the trick of reducing the level of distortion. It reduces the gain so you will lose overall power but, in my experience, increase the power available before distortion.

The subtleties between different manufacturers is, I'm afraid, beyond my experience, others will comment, I hope. I have an old Mullard from Mr Foxen in V1, it makes the amp perform wonderfully and is in the amp now. I was lucky to pick up a group of 4 different vintage ECC81s on the dreaded ebay at a ridiculously low bargain price. Took the risk and they all seem to work, although one is rather 'ringy' so probably won't get used, so one day I'll do a bit if A-B'ing.

(Initial quick testing of the valves, to see if they worked, showed I may be a valve heathen and the difference too subtle for my ears.)

[Teobass88]

Thanks a lot for the answers..I'm going to buy a valve of this type selected by TAD...next step will be, if I will like what comes out from the amp, to find a finer valve!!

[Mr. Foxen]

TAD I've seen appear to be rebranded Shuguangs, so bear that in mind when you look at the price. Less chance of a duff one is what you are paying for, but you can send duffers back if you buy from a sensible place.

[4 Strings]

Just a small comment, I have noticed that for a given output level if I turn the Gain down but output 'Master' up it tends to give a thinner, less deep sound than if I drive the input Gain hard (but not to distortion) and turn the Master down.

[Mr. Foxen]

Probably is distortion, just not recognising it as such.

[4 Strings]

Maybe. It was in a hard surfaced cafe type venue and the bass sounded bad. Fiddled with eq, to avoid the 'just turn it up' thing, but couldn't find depth. I was using my little BF Midget and you need to pump it full of Watts and I had used the 'output' Master volume to so (Gain control was lower than usual to try an find the depth).

Its all rather marginal as, now dissatisfied, I played around at the next rehearsal and found my sound again, but with the Gain turned back up. Went the other way again (ie gain down, Master up) and although it wasn't as bad as in the cafe, it lost depth.

So, yes, perhaps a tad of overdrive gives the impression of depth, even if I thought I was within the clean band of gain. Experience has been the reverse, distortion tending to lose depth in sound majoring on the raspy frequencies.

Will fiddle around again. Room conditions can make or break your sound, especially if the room is small.