Bass disappearing from pop?

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='chaypup' timestamp='1352710660' post='1866278']
At the Cardiff bass bash (which was great!) on Saturday a discussion came up about how Pj Harvey's last album only had bass (guitar) on 1 track and how we should record bass parts for the rest of the album as she had 'forgotten' to.

Anyway, from this, someone mentioned that earlier in the year 3 of the top 10 billboard chart singles had no bass at all!
And the reason for this is that [b][i]songs are being produced and mixed for mobile phone speakers[/i][/b].

Does this spell the end for bass players?

[color=#FFFFFF](obviously not but it's a good starting point for discussion!)[/color]
[/quote]

quite frankly, f*** mobile phone speakers. Who here can say that they honestly want to listen to a song that has been mixed for such crap quality speakers? Anyway, who here even listens to music regularly on their phone speakers? i assume most of us have invested in a decent set of earphones/headphones? Listening to music on a phone makes me think of chavs at the back of the bus forcing every passenger to listen to some generic hyped up dance music. f*** it, they are welcome to those songs. I bet most of them didn't even pay for the song. Oh, the irony- producing a song to be played by the inferior phone speakers of the people who are most likely to steal their music.

Rant f***ing over!

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Ziphoblat' timestamp='1352720308' post='1866413']

[/font][/color]
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I just can't echo that sentiment at all. I'm 20 myself (came out of school a couple of year ago) and there were plenty of kids who were learning to play bass (and drum, and guitar). The scene is still very much alive, it's just there's other scenes running parallel to it... which honestly is fine. Perhaps even more interesting is that nearly all of the people I know who listen to mainstream radio chart music are middle aged women... I honestly hardly know any people of my age (or a bit younger) who listen to any of that stuff. Take that how you will.[/font][/color]
[/quote]

Hmm... I'm 19 myself, and unexpectedly still at school (although i have been off sick since mid september.... oh dear). I was in the performing arts group, and there were other kids in the group. But most of them played guitar. There was one lad, who played guitar, bass and drums, and also sang, but he wasn't a great drummer. Anyway, this group of 15 year olds constantly swapped around their instruments. The thing that annoyed me about that was this- I always think it is better to be good and competent on one instrument, than "mmm alright" on several. I have to say, none of them had any particular knowledge or interest in instruments. They just wanted to play along, which is fine, but the bassist usually had bad technique, and to a degree, lacking ability (nothing proper tuition wouldn't sort out). But i just think there is an entire lack of interest in kids coming up now for bass guitar. Nobody introduced me to it., I found it for myself, but then my family does have a bit of musical history to it. Obviously, the instrument to get, in a kids mind, is either a drum kit or a guitar, because those are the instruments that you hear. Guitars are obviously well know for big flashy solos, and kids love something flashy. Drums, hard to miss drums in a song. It is easy to miss a bass in a song, especially if it is only playing roots. I suppose it could also be wrongly perceived as a guitar by some youngsters. Anyway, us, as musicians, we tend to surround ourselves with other musicians, and i know for a fact that there are plenty of people in our generation who do listen to utter crap. And this "bass culture" thing is utter crap. Those people don't know what bass is, they seem to think it is a drum. FFFFFUUUUCCCCKKKK!

Sorry, i'm going to take my meds now.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1352714819' post='1866332']
It could be worse. We could be guitarists.
[/quote]

I assume this post is missing a smilie...

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Dr Chocolate' timestamp='1352717190' post='1866369']
Some of my favourite bands don't have a bass player Nine Inch Nails and Depeche Mode to name a couple but it still doesn't stop me jamming along to them and enjoying their music.
[/quote]

Maybe, but they still have plenty of bass. The bass guitar is not the only instrument capable of producing low notes.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='chaypup' timestamp='1352710660' post='1866278']
At the Cardiff bass bash (which was great!) on Saturday a discussion came up about how Pj Harvey's last album only had bass (guitar) on 1 track and how we should record bass parts for the rest of the album as she had 'forgotten' to.
[/quote]
I'm sure PJ Harvey can figure out her own bass parts if she needs to.

[quote name='chaypup' timestamp='1352710660' post='1866278']
Anyway, from this, someone mentioned that earlier in the year 3 of the top 10 billboard chart singles had no bass at all!
And the reason for this is that [b][i]songs are being produced and mixed for mobile phone speakers[/i][/b].[color=#FFFFFF]but it's a good starting point for discussion!)[/color]
[/quote]
And who is it that cares even the slightest bit about the Billboard top 10? I didnt even realise there was such a thing anymore.

What's your evidence that songs are being produced and mixed for mobile phone speakers? Are there really people listening to music on mobile phone speakers? Enough of them to warrant mixing especially for them? Mixing for in-ear headphones would make more sense.

[quote name='chaypup' timestamp='1352710660' post='1866278']
Does this spell the end for bass players?
[/quote]
No.

[thumperbob 2002]

It was said to a certain mr Epstein that guitar bands were dead and we know what happened there.

[Jacqueslemac]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1352714082' post='1866324']
Does it matter?

The scope of music these days is wide and diverse and pop/chart music is fast becoming an insignificant blip.
[/quote]

My thoughts exactly. I don't think I know anyone who listens to music that's in "the charts". Come to think of it, just how many charts are there now?

There are so many genres and sub-genres, it probably doesn't matter if the one that's aimed mainly at pre-teenage girls (apparently) happens to overlook one instrument.

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='BassPimp66' timestamp='1352711270' post='1866289']
The decline started after the suicide of Kurt Cobain. This was the last time I heard music on the mainstream radio, before rap and r'n'b took over the waves for good. Kids today do not care about electric bass. Most of the music now comes from a computer, add a few lyrics and spend all the budget on the music video. No money, no time for a pre-historic bass player. Same goes for drummers. It's disappointing because it's never been so good being a bass player in terms of technology. The gear has evolved tremendously over the last 2 decades. Sadly, music has not...
[/quote]

Woah there, Captain Caveman

I love these "the end of the (musical) world is nigh" threads. They're always good for a giggle at the middle aged men turning into the very thing they railed against in their own youth

[Thurbs]

I was at a club not so long ago having some kind of early 20's flashback muttering to myself how young everyone else looked... anyway...

The DJ in his wisdom kept playing with a low pass filter. It was quite revealing to me that when he turned the filter up, within 5 or so seconds everyone stopped dancing. He kept doing it over and over again with the same result.

This just re-enforced that a rhythm is probably the most primeval part of music people enjoy subconsciously. Yes not every track has rhythm and yes not every track needs melody but rhythm is probably the fundamental part of music and that it is never going to go away.

There is a question over how electronics is going to change the types of instruments people use to play rhythm. I watched a really good set from a solo performer at a open mic night. She queued loads of samples, rhythms and beats from a square keypad thing. She then sang + played the guitar over it, musically it was really creative, worked well and I enjoyed it very much. No bass guitar or drums in sight. Was there anything wrong with that? I don't think so.

[chaypup]

[quote name='chaypup' timestamp='1352710660' post='1866278'] At the Cardiff bass bash (which was great!) on Saturday a discussion came up about how Pj Harvey's last album only had bass (guitar) on 1 track and how we should record bass parts for the rest of the album as she had 'forgotten' to. [/quote]


[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1352714082' post='1866324'] Personally I think it's very presumptuous of the OP to consider writing bass parts for recorded songs that don't have them and were obviously written and arranged in such a way that the composer/writers felt that bass parts were unnecessary. In the (almost) 40 years that I have been writing music, [/quote]


[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1352723466' post='1866478'] I'm sure PJ Harvey can figure out her own bass parts if she needs to. . [/quote]

Apologies, I had thought that the smilie would indicate that our suggestion was entirely tongue-in cheek.

[lojo]

Its a good job the people I play with mainly choose to cover old songs

Last night, someone made a comment we where actually doing a song thats in the chart off our new list, it does have bass, all be it only 4 notes

[Doddy]

I'm sorry,but just because there is no bass guitar or double bass in some pop music doesn't
mean that there is no bass at all. There is some heavy synth bass parts in a lot of pop,and some of
these lines are great..often better than many of the root note or riff doubling lines of many rock and
indie bands.
With regards to making music for phones-I disagree. That's not a reason for not having bass in a
song. Prince has some big hits that have no bass guitar-listen to 'Kiss' and 'When Doves Cry'.Take
a listen to Blackstreet's 'No Diggity'-it' great,and it grooves,but there is no traditional bass on the
track.

[Dingus]

Without wishing to be controversial ( well, maybe a little bit controversial...) the best thing for me would have been if the mystifyingly overrated PJ Harvey had left the rest of the instruments off her latest album , and then left the vocals off as well. I used to have a girlfriend who thought PJ Harvey was a great artist , but then again the girl in question was an idiot .

Regarding the question of whether the bass is disappearing from pop music , I think the o.p clearly means bass guitar rather than any other instrument fullfilling the same or similar role , and so I think it is a very valid question. Certainly the prominence of the bass guitar has diminished in many styles of popular music , and the way people play the bass has changed stylistically , but it was always changing anyway , and will continue to change . Whereas bass magazines were once full of men with mullet haircuts and basses that looked like a cross between a coffee table and a science project who would play a twenty minute slap solo at the drop of a hat , they are now full of men with beards using vintage basses strung with flatwounds talking about how they play what serves the song best rather than try to show off . I'm sure a lot of these blokes would be much happier as social workers or working in an Oxfam shop , but for some reason they have chosen the bass guitar instead .

Edited November 12, 2012 by Dingus

[Fubar]

[quote name='Thurbs' timestamp='1352728402' post='1866573']
I watched a really good set from a solo performer at a open mic night. She queued loads of samples, rhythms and beats from a square keypad thing. She then sang + played the guitar over it, musically it was really creative, worked well and I enjoyed it very much. No bass guitar or drums in sight. Was there anything wrong with that? I don't think so.
[/quote]
Comes under the heading of 'Karaoke', that's what's wrong with that.

[Skol303]

[quote name='Fubar' timestamp='1352737961' post='1866768']
Comes under the heading of 'Karaoke', that's what's wrong with that.
[/quote]

Really, even if she's playing guitar too? But if she was only playing guitar and singing then I assume you wouldn't consider it to be karaoke?

Seems odd that you think the inclusion of technology somehow cheapens the act. For example, most recording studios resemble the flight deck of the Starship Enterprise in terms of tech - even those from 50+ years ago - so I don't personally see it as being anything detrimental to music. Quite the opposite, I think it opens up a shedload of new possibilities.

But each to their own, etc!

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Fubar' timestamp='1352737961' post='1866768']
Comes under the heading of 'Karaoke', that's what's wrong with that.
[/quote]
That's totally bizarre.

[51m0n]

Cee Lo Green's Forget You, great bass line, lovely couple of runs in it that really lifet the song. First thing that came into my head when you said pop bass lines.

Mixing and mastering has nothing to do with catering for phone speakers, neither does having bass or not, if you add it they wont reproduce it anyway, so why not have some bass if you prefer your arrangement like that (as the composer). Thats a nonsense argumetn if ever I heard one....

[Jarhead]

Being a young person, I have to say, it seems to me that there's been a lot of poorly thought out sentiment here, mainly from the older (I assume) that seems to be only listening to what comes out in the charts, and making their assumptions from that. I have to say, in my opinion at least, there hasn't been a pop song worth listening to that's made it into the charts in a while (not to say there haven't been decent songs in the charts, just not pop), where pretty much everything, not just the bass, was made using synths or programming. I think the lack of traditional bass guitar in this sort of crap is due to it being easier to make big bass sounds on a synth, than having to spend some actual time getting a great sounding bass tone on recording.

If you want to here some decent bass, don't listen to pop, for the most part you're only going to be disappointed. All of this being my opinion, of course.

Edit: Also, if I ever go into the studio, and the engineer mentions anything about mixing for phone speakers, or some other horrendous listening platform, I would not be best pleased.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Jarhead

[Doddy]

[quote name='Jarhead' timestamp='1352778382' post='1867352']
If you want to here some decent bass, don't listen to pop, for the most part you're only going to be disappointed.
[/quote]
Like I said earlier though,there are some great synth basslines in a lot of pop which I think is just as valid as a good
bass guitar line. Listen to 'Toxic' by Britney Spears-it's a killer synth bassline (that's just the first tune I thought of).
I don't think that synth bass is used just because it's easier either.It's used because it gives a sound and feel that you
just can't get from a bass guitar-the old Michael Jackson stuff is a perfect example of this.
Personally,I think there have been some decent pop songs in the charts lately-They may not be bass masterclasses,but it
doesn't stop them from being decent songs.

[51m0n]

Completely agree Doddy!

Bass isnt an instrument its a frequency range and an arrangement tool. What sounds right to the composer, is right.

Anyone think they can come up with a better pop song than this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkDLR4a6KPI&feature=related

[bremen]

[quote name='thumperbob 2002' timestamp='1352723536' post='1866479']
It was said to a certain mr Epstein that guitar bands were dead and we know what happened there.
[/quote]

Can we pin this somewhere please

[Prunesquallor]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1352799051' post='1867448']Bass isnt an instrument its a frequency range and an arrangement tool.[/quote]

+11111111111111

And a controller.

Just ask anyone playing live dubstep, or Squarepusher for that matter, if their bass guitar is redundant in modern music. Look forward, not back.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Prunesquallor

[chris_b]

In my opinion there have always been fantastic bass lines in pop music.

The synth bass lines on Michael Jackson's gigs were played by his bass players. So no bass players were harmed in the making of his records.

The good guys will just play what is required, like their bass lines on another instrument. We already do this when we switch between different bass guitars and double basses. And the ordinary guys, like me, will just play these bass lines on their regular instruments. For instance, the bass guitar line I play, where there isn't one on the record, on Sweet Dreams by The Eurhythmics.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1352766672' post='1867316']
Mixing and mastering has nothing to do with catering for phone speakers, neither does having bass or not, if you add it they wont reproduce it anyway, so why not have some bass if you prefer your arrangement like that (as the composer). Thats a nonsense argumetn if ever I heard one....
[/quote]

Actually I'd disagree with that.

In the pre-CD era different masters were made for each delivery medium, vinyl, compact cassette and also the master of the single would be different to the version that appeared on the LP even if they were both the same mix. This was to get the best sound possible within the limitations of the medium. These days there is a depressing tendency for a one-size fits all approach to mastering which might be cheaper but doesn't do the music any favours and has resulted in some appalling sounding CDs.

IMO music which is going to be delivered in a lossy compression format benefits from a bit of boost around the high and low cut-off points compared with the version that will be used to produce the CD.

[51m0n]

Nah, sorry, people use Auratones to mix on to hear what the mix sounds like on really poop speakers. (Actually Auratones are like the ultimate lazer on the mid range too, they arent bad, just frequency limited).

People mix and master whilst taking into account Fletcher-Munsen curves to increase the apparent loudness of a track to our fragile and easily beguiled human sound interface (our hearing, which is our ears and our totally not flat perception of that mechanism).

We are at the mercy of that particular interface, in that louder always, alwasy, always sounds better [i]in the short term[/i], and so much emphasis has been put on louder at all costs by many people who dont know better.

If someone were to mix/master purely for a phone speaker that mix would not translate at all to anything else, why? Because the phone speaker is so massively flawed. It would have huge boosts in upper mid, and no bass or lower mid whatsoever,m since those speakers do nothing at all below 250Hz. And what are they listening to on their phone speakers? Crappy generic pop dance music. And where is that intended to beplayed? Clubs. And what do clubs have? Massive massive sub bins, and floor to ceiling PA rigs.

It is far more likely that people are mixing/mastering for clubland, with a healthy dose of nasty limiting and a big kick in the upper mids for Fletcher Munsen all to achieve mythical quantities of supreme loudness. The EQ curves on the mix will also include a drop in sub as often as not so that the mahoosive boost in sub in most clubs doesnt fart out the rig.

Which can sound on a normal stereo like they are mixing for ickle tiny speakers (there isnt much sub on this and its kinda hard in the lower treble/upper mid range) when in fact they are mastering for huge club rigs and maximum loudness.

Just my opinion.....