Bass disappearing from pop?

[51m0n]

CDs sound apalling purely because of mastering for immediate volume rather than emotional impact over the long term.

Its nothing to do with specialising the master for CD versus some other medium IMO.

People still do masters for radio broadcast if yo ask them to (and you should really if you can afford it), since the broadcast limiting will play havoc with the mastering for CD.

Edited November 13, 2012 by 51m0n

[steven gayle]

Bass players are going to be around as long as there is music. I agree with an earlier post about stuff on the radio being a small percentage of the music that is being produced. There is an great live music scene where I live - indie, rock, jazz, R'nB - and I see no absence of bass guitars.

[Dingus]

At the risk of repeating myself , the o.p clearly means is bass guitar disappearing from pop music rather than synth bass or sine wave , in which case I would ask what he means by pop music . I've just listened to some snatches of the current top 40 singles and there isn't a whole lot of bass guitar in there , and what's there is is not featured very prominently, on the whole . If you went back to the top 40 of this week twenty, thirty and fourty years ago you would find far more bass guitar content on those records ( I could even try doing that , if you like . I have got that much time on my hands .) However , popular music is such a nebulous term nowadays that it is far harder to say if the bass guitar has a diminished role in the wider context . There are plenty of records with lots of bass guitar on them , there are plenty that have none. Stylistically there has definitely been a shift towards simplicity , and as a broad generalisation , there is not so much emphasis on being able to play well in mainstream rock and pop music . I watch Jools Holland every week and about 75 % of the bass players look like Polytechnic students with Precision Basses , and that is for the most part what they sound like .

Edited November 13, 2012 by Dingus

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1352806248' post='1867569']
CDs sound apalling purely because of mastering for immediate volume rather than emotional impact over the long term.

Its nothing to do with specialising the master for CD versus some other medium IMO.

People still do masters for radio broadcast if yo ask them to (and you should really if you can afford it), since the broadcast limiting will play havoc with the mastering for CD.
[/quote]

Actually, it IS rocket science.

[IMG]http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m496/h4ppyjack/Just%20Stuff/Music%20and%20Musicians/SimononFruit.jpg[/IMG]

[51m0n]

Cripes!

[chaypup]

In the OP I was talking about bass as a whole really, based on what I was told last Saturday (As I said in the post and which is why I stated that as my source and posed a question rather than stating things as facts)

Personally I agree with the majority of the posters here in that I don't believe that bass players are going to be out of work - from a personal perspective I'm doing more than ever!

I was a bit naughty with my opening post and hoping to encourage a bit of debate and find out if anyone had come across producers mastering for mobile phones etc. 51mon's posts were full of the sort of info I was hoping to see.

[51m0n]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1352819639' post='1867819']
At the risk of repeating myself , the o.p clearly means is bass guitar disappearing from pop music rather than synth bass or sine wave , in which case I would ask what he means by pop music . I've just listened to some snatches of the current top 40 singles and there isn't a whole lot of bass guitar in there , and what's there is is not featured very prominently, on the whole . If you went back to the top 40 of this week twenty, thirty and fourty years ago you would find far more bass guitar content on those records ( I could even try doing that , if you like . I have got that much time on my hands .) However , popular music is such a nebulous term nowadays that it is far harder to say if the bass guitar has a diminished role in the wider context . There are plenty of records with lots of bass guitar on them , there are plenty that have none. Stylistically there has definitely been a shift towards simplicity , and as a broad generalisation , there is not so much emphasis on being able to play well in mainstream rock and pop music . I watch Jools Holland every week and about 75 % of the bass players look like Polytechnic students with Precision Basses , and that is for the most part what they sound like .
[/quote]

Really 20 years ago, 1992, that would be the year of such bass guitar heavy extravaganzas in the top 40 as Ebaneezer Goode by The Shamen, Erasure's Abba-esqu E.P (5 weeks at #1 no less), Whitney Housten's I WIll Always Love YOouuuuuuuuuuuouuouououououououu (dont remember the bass on that at all!) - maybe you are referring to Deeply Dippy by Right Said Fred, no, can't be I dont think there was any real bass on that, or Rhythm Is A Dancer by Snap!?

You see I can go on and on (and usually do) but outside of certain subgenres of pop (BritPop style indie) the bass guitar hasnt been the weapon of choice for well over 20 years, more like 30. And even in Britpop it wasnt ever ever used as a featured instrumetn, it was there in a purely supporting role (as some would say a bass should be) and was rarely ever a featured instrument even so far as having an interesting fill or two, it could just as well have been replaced with a different bass instrument, but that wouldnt work with the band image would it....

And complex basslines very very rarely are a feature in pop, oh I grant you they do exist, but they are very very few and far between IME. And the songs aren't always better for them even then....

So no, I still dont think bass guitar is disappearing from pop music, I think its there about as much as it has been in the last twenty years with the odd exception when genres outside of classic pop that show a heavy reliance on that instrument for stylistic or image reasons become unusually popular for a little while.

I cant resist (sorry):-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFJdUJg4wOk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-d4J3YUQmU

Edited November 13, 2012 by 51m0n

[51m0n]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXa-QDvxacw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JWTaaS7LdU

[51m0n]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9u7-lWE54M[/media]

Ha! I was wrong, this one does have real bass - well stone me!

Edited November 13, 2012 by 51m0n

[51m0n]

I do really like the fills on the bass in this though....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKxodgpyGec

[12stringbassist]

If chart pop doesn't have real bass guitar on there, then it's the duty of some of us to
put that right by making some records that will sell with prominent bass on them.

[Dingus]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1352822652' post='1867904']
Really 20 years ago, 1992, that would be the year of such bass guitar heavy extravaganzas in the top 40 as Ebaneezer Goode by The Shamen, Erasure's Abba-esqu E.P (5 weeks at #1 no less), Whitney Housten's I WIll Always Love YOouuuuuuuuuuuouuouououououououu (dont remember the bass on that at all!) - maybe you are referring to Deeply Dippy by Right Said Fred, no, can't be I dont think there was any real bass on that, or Rhythm Is A Dancer by Snap!?

You see I can go on and on (and usually do) but outside of certain subgenres of pop (BritPop style indie) the bass guitar hasnt been the weapon of choice for well over 20 years, more like 30. And even in Britpop it wasnt ever ever used as a featured instrumetn, it was there in a purely supporting role (as some would say a bass should be) and was rarely ever a featured instrument even so far as having an interesting fill or two, it could just as well have been replaced with a different bass instrument, but that wouldnt work with the band image would it....

And complex basslines very very rarely are a feature in pop, oh I grant you they do exist, but they are very very few and far between IME. And the songs aren't always better for them even then....

So no, I still dont think bass guitar is disappearing from pop music, I think its there about as much as it has been in the last twenty years with the odd exception when genres outside of classic pop that show a heavy reliance on that instrument for stylistic or image reasons become unusually popular for a little while.

I cant resist (sorry):-

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFJdUJg4wOk[/media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-d4J3YUQmU[/media]
[/quote]

I am currently looking over a list of the U.K top 40 singles from early November 1992 and it includes at the very least 23 tracks with proper bass guitar parts on them ( there maybe more as a few of the tracks are so obscure by now that I can't remember anything about them and don't have time right now to have a listen ) , including a few with fairly up -front bass lines such Would I Lie To You by Charles And Eddie

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=B-nSdyHhZeM"]http://www.youtube.c...e&v=B-nSdyHhZeM[/url]

Complex bass guitar parts were , on the whole , more common in bygone times although they are not unheard of now in certain genres . And that Whitney Houston Track , while it might not be to everybodies taste , has in fact got a prominent bassline played by Ricky Lawson on his Ken Smith 5 string . How can you cite that as an example of pop music without bass guitar in it ? The bass is massive on that track . Try listening to it .

Edited November 13, 2012 by Dingus

[risingson]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1352826551' post='1868014']
I am currently looking over a list of the U.K top 40 singles from early November 1992 and it includes at the very least 23 tracks with proper bass guitar parts on them ( there maybe more as a few of the tracks are so obscure by now that I can't remember anything about them and don't have time right now to have a listen ) , including a few with fairly up -front bass lines such Would I Lie To You by Charles And Eddie

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=B-nSdyHhZeM"]http://www.youtube.c...e&v=B-nSdyHhZeM[/url]

Complex bass guitar parts were , on the whole , more common in bygone times although they are not unheard of now in certain genres . And that Whitney Houston Track , while it might not be to everybodies taste , has in fact got a prominent bassline played by Ricky Lawson on his Ken Smith 5 string . How can you cite that as an example of pop music without bass guitar in it ? The bass is massive on that track . Try listening to it .
[/quote]

The point is that no one really cares who played bass on what apart from a select group of people squabbling on an internet forum about whether bass has disappeared from popular music. The average pop music consumer sat in their office during peak hours listening to Fearne Cotton on Radio One simply isn't concerned about the bass part on the record unless it constitutes a part of the track that really relies on a bass hook. 51m0n is right in as much as the bass is just as much (or as little depending on your viewpoint) relied on as 20 years ago, probably 30 years ago, and the complex and intricate bass parts of a record do not necessarily make that record a decent song. You quoted 'Charles & Eddie'... case and point!

[Dingus]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1352827359' post='1868037']
The point is that no one really cares who played bass on what apart from a select group of people squabbling on an internet forum about whether bass has disappeared from popular music. The average pop music consumer sat in their office during peak hours listening to Fearne Cotton on Radio One simply isn't concerned about the bass part on the record unless it constitutes a part of the track that really relies on a bass hook. 51m0n is right in as much as the bass is just as much (or as little depending on your viewpoint) relied on as 20 years ago, probably 30 years ago, and the complex and intricate bass parts of a record do not necessarily make that record a decent song. You quoted 'Charles & Eddie'... case and point!
[/quote]

I thought that was a good record at the time ! The question over whether the general public ( whoever that might be ) notices or cares whether there is a good bassline on a record is an entirely different proposition . I have never claimed that bass guitar had more of a populist appeal in times gone by , or that the general public demanded it on pop records any more than now . I am only talking about whether the bass guitar is present on the track or not , not if anybody who isn't a musician could care less about it . In my experience , most / many ordinary punters don't really have much of an idea what a bass guitar sounds like , let alone what it's function in the music is . If you were to start limiting discussion on this forum to things that the non- bass playing general public could care less about then you wouldn't have much anyone could write about .

[Doddy]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1352826551' post='1868014']
And that Whitney Houston Track , while it might not be to everybodies taste , has in fact got a prominent bassline played by Ricky Lawson on his Ken Smith 5 string . How can you cite that as an example of pop music without bass guitar in it ? The bass is massive on that track . Try listening to it .
[/quote]

You know Ricky Lawson is a drummer right?
I'm guessing that you actually mean Ricky Minor,who is credited on the track.

[51m0n]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1352826551' post='1868014']
I am currently looking over a list of the U.K top 40 singles from early November 1992 and it includes at the very least 23 tracks with proper bass guitar parts on them ( there maybe more as a few of the tracks are so obscure by now that I can't remember anything about them and don't have time right now to have a listen ) , including a few with fairly up -front bass lines such Would I Lie To You by Charles And Eddie

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=B-nSdyHhZeM"]http://www.youtube.c...e&v=B-nSdyHhZeM[/url]

Complex bass guitar parts were , on the whole , more common in bygone times although they are not unheard of now in certain genres . And that Whitney Houston Track , while it might not be to everybodies taste , has in fact got a prominent bassline played by Ricky Lawson on his Ken Smith 5 string . How can you cite that as an example of pop music without bass guitar in it ? The bass is massive on that track . Try listening to it .
[/quote]

Yes, now you're getting my point - there are some tracks with and some without. And if you keep digging you'll find about a 50/50 ish split each way I'd guess, pure guess looking at the spread in the number 1's. And with the rise of hip hop and dance music and EDM/electronica in the last 20 years you may interptret this as a lessening in the amount of bass guitar in pop. These same changes maybe causing people to rely on simpler lines - which are generally better anyway. All of which depends upon what constiutes pop music in your eyes as well of course (lets nto go there).

If you go back another 10 years to 1982 the only number one I can see that I would be pretty sure has synth bass is Kraftwerk's The Model. Although Renee and Renata may have had I'm not prepared to subject myself to that song for anything!

Re the Whitney track, personally I never got beyond the intro, because I cant stand the over souling vocal style, having just had a listen, yup there is a perfectly standard, reasonable IMO not particularly massive, or immense (that wouldnt fit) bassline on there. Nothing amazing, just good solid playing, but it couldnt be, since its role in the song is pure support, there is absolutely no room anywhere in that arrangement for any fireworks other than the vocal and the solo. It could have easily been a synth part IMO, there is absolutely nothing, at all, to me, that make that bassline have to be played on a bass guitar.

Edited November 13, 2012 by 51m0n

[Dingus]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1352828544' post='1868055']
You know Ricky Lawson is a drummer right?
I'm guessing that you actually mean Ricky Minor,who is credited on the track.
[/quote]

Yes , sorry Ricky Minor . I find drinking plenty of alcohol at lunchtime is the best way to get through my afternoon work . Here he is with the aforementioned Ken Smith.

[51m0n]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1352829225' post='1868068']
Yes , sorry Ricky Minor .[i] I find drinking plenty of alcohol at lunchtime is the best way to get through my afternoon work[/i] .
[/quote]

Haha!

[Dingus]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1352828585' post='1868057']
Yes, now you're getting my point - there are some tracks with and some without. And if you keep digging you'll find about a 50/50 ish split each way I'd guess, pure guess looking at the spread in the number 1's. And with the rise of hip hop and dance music and EDM/electronica in the last 20 years you may interptret this as a lessening in the amount of bass guitar in pop. These same changes maybe causing people to rely on simpler lines - which are generally better anyway. All of which depends upon what constiutes pop music in your eyes as well of course (lets nto go there).

If you go back another 10 years to 1982 the only number one I can see that I would be pretty sure has synth bass is Kraftwerk's The Model. Although Renee and Renata may have had I'm not prepared to subject myself to that song for anything!

Re the Whitney track, personally I never got beyond the intro, because I cant stand the over souling vocal style, having just had a listen, yup there is a perfectly standard, reasonable IMO not particularly massive, or immense (that wouldnt fit) bassline on there. Nothing amazing, just good solid playing, but it couldnt be, since its role in the song is pure support, there is absolutely no room anywhere in that arrangement for any fireworks other than the vocal and the solo. It could have easily been a synth part IMO, there is absolutely nothing, at all, to me, that make that bassline have to be played on a bass guitar.
[/quote]

I think it's the use of the notes on the low B that give it some feeling of depth as a bass part . You are quite right that no one would have blinked an eye if it would have been a synth part on that track , but maybe because Ricky Minor was a long time friend of Whitney's from before she was famous ( as well as being a highly accomplished bass player in his own right , I hasten to add ) that she wanted him to feature on the soundtrack .

We both l know why the bass in pop has changed - because pop has changed in exactly the ways you state . Electronica , hip hop and a plethora of dance music proliferates in the mainstream , as well as a more back to basics feel in rock. That state of change is the natural order of things in pop music - It is transient by it's very nature. Staying current is the name of the game . I am pretty sure at least one or two top 40 records from this week in 1982 will have had fretless bass on, for example, because it was a stylistic trend for artists and producers at that time , where as if one of this weeks top 40 has got fretless bass on it then I will eat my own underpants .

Edited November 13, 2012 by Dingus

[darkandrew]

I remember reading an interview with Derek Forbes a few years ago, some of his favourite basslines were from his stint with Propaganda even though all the bass parts from the first album were either sampler or synthesiser based. The key thing for me, is whether it "does it for me" or not. That first Propaganda album is a good case in point - I'm not really too bothered that the bass parts were played by Steve Lipson on a Fairlight or PPG Wave, the songs are well written and well recorded and translate equally well to a live setting with a "flesh and bone" bass player.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXZyTx4TzLg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXZyTx4TzLg[/url]

Edited November 13, 2012 by darkandrew

[BigRedX]

[quote name='darkandrew' timestamp='1352835930' post='1868206']
I remember reading an interview with Derek Forbes a few years ago, some of his favourite basslines were from his stint with Propaganda even though all the bass parts from the first album were either sampler or synthesiser based. The key thing for me, is whether it "does it for me" or not. That first Propaganda album is a good case in point - I'm not really too bothered that the bass parts were played by Steve Lipson on a Fairlight or PPG Wave, the songs are well written and well recorded and translate equally well to a live setting with a "flesh and bone" bass player.
[/quote]

I was a massive fan of the first Propaganda album and consequently went to see them on the tour to promote it. To say I was disappointed would be an understatement. It was one of the worst gigs I have ever seen - the "live" instruments did little justice to the power and majesty of the recorded synthesisers and samplers. Sometimes you just have to accept that the bass guitar is no match for a good synth bass no matter how well it is played. IMO they'd have been better off with backing tapes.

[darkandrew]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1352842858' post='1868380']
I was a massive fan of the first Propaganda album and consequently went to see them on the tour to promote it. To say I was disappointed would be an understatement. It was one of the worst gigs I have ever seen - the "live" instruments did little justice to the power and majesty of the recorded synthesisers and samplers. Sometimes you just have to accept that the bass guitar is no match for a good synth bass no matter how well it is played. IMO they'd have been better off with backing tapes.
[/quote]
I'm disappointed to hear that, all the Youtube clips I've seen are pretty good and Derek Forbes was one of my main inspirations for switching from keyboard to bass all those years ago. Still, I suppose that goes to prove the point I was making, that it doesn't matter whether you're listening to a sampler, a synth or an electric bass guitar, if it sounds right and "does it for you" then it IS right.

Edited November 13, 2012 by darkandrew

[gub]

It doesn't matter about the bass , good music is only good music to the people who like it , all music is sensitive to changes in fashion ,the very fundamental roots of music like harmony ,drums and bass will never be lost they will jut change form !

[Doddy]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1352842858' post='1868380']
the "live" instruments did little justice to the power and majesty of the recorded synthesisers and samplers. Sometimes you just have to accept that the bass guitar is no match for a good synth bass no matter how well it is played.
[/quote]
Exactly....Which is why there are so many guys doubling on Electric and Synth Bass now.

[ead]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1352714082' post='1866324']
Does it matter?

The scope of music these days is wide and diverse and pop/chart music is fast becoming an insignificant blip.

Besides there's no law that says every piece of music needs to have a bass instrument of some description on it. There has been plenty of music throughout the ages (and not just limited to pop and rock) that was composed without bass and works perfectly well that way.

Personally I think it's very presumptuous of the OP to consider writing bass parts for recorded songs that don't have them and were obviously written and arranged in such a way that the composer/writers felt that bass parts were unnecessary. In the (almost) 40 years that I have been writing music, I've written and recorded a lot of songs with no bass guitar on them and some of those don't have any bass instrument at all, because IMO they were complete without it. OTOH I've also written songs where the bass was the dominant instrument and the others were reduced to little more than sonic embellishments. It's all about knowing what is right of the song and the style of the music.

If as a bass guitarist you feel that your role on music is under threat than maybe you should consider learning another instrument or how to program synths and sequencers. However IMO you are over-reacting. Musicians have worried about being replaced by technology since the 70s and guess what? All but the most incompetent are still here and playing.
[/quote]

+1

Also who says what is good music and what is not, surely it's all subjective. I brought my kids up along the lines of there is music you like, music you really don't like and all point in between; your opinion is exactly that and carries no more validity than anybody elses.

Edited November 15, 2012 by ead