Thurbs Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 I am a massive geek when it comes to technology, especially when it is also my day job.... and my geekyness is also all prevailing when it comes to music... So my Zoom B9.1ut has just died. I wasn't anything to do with the gear, one of the potentiometers on the pre-amp got knocked. This caused it to change all the time whilst playing, which meant any of the patch levels always was wrong, which meant it was unusable with the pre-amp on, which meant it was kind of useless! Anyway... I am quite happy to get another one, but I have been thinking about midi triggered software based effects. I have a rack mounted Focusrite Saffire Pro 40, a Peavey IPR 1600, a laptop and some money to spend! From the research I have done, the best set up would be a midi pedal and some kick ass effects software, geared around live performance use. Regarding pedals, is the [url="http://www.dv247.com/computer-hardware/roland-fc-300-midi-foot-control-station--38265"]Roland FC 300[/url] more then 3 times the quality of the [url="http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/FCB1010.aspx"]Behrigher FCC1010[/url] (ie worth 3 times the price) ? And probably the most crucial buy is the software given that is where the "tone" will come from. Has anyone used [url="http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/amplitube/"]AmpliTube[/url] or [url="https://www.ableton.com/en/live/new-in-9/"]Alberton Live[/url]? Any others I should consider? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 I don't really have a clue when it comes to amp modelling or effects from the PC, but it does seem to me the B9.1Ut could be fixed easily, which would be my preference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 The most crucial part of anything like this is latency IMO. DSP fx units have tiny tiny latency, just a couple of ms is normal - thats the nature of the beast 1ms is equivalent to 34cm of distance (speed of sound). So if you are used to standing within a few of feet of your rig, then you can work out you normal latency (ie how long you wait to hear what your fingers just did). If your soundcard, PC VST/FX software roundtrip adds significant latency (more than a few ms) you will find it distracting, and will have to work to get used to it. Personally I really really hate latency, it makes my head hurt, and makes my playing suffer. I just bought an RME UCX, which has the lowest latency of any interface you are likely to see (stupid numbers, really just incredible turn around times). It costs a lot of money, but if it delivers as it should then it will be totally worth it to me (its not just the latency I'm after!). Once I've used oti fo ra bit I'll review it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Heh, we're not all as fussy as 5imon I don't mind a tiny bit of latency, every audio interface i've tried has been fine for me. As long as you're not trying to use on-board sound or one of those cheap USB-Jack Cable things you should be OK. I used to have a dodgy copy of the ampeg SVX which was quite cool, but honestly I never liked the bass sounds as much as those you can get by adding your own EQ, compression, dirt etc. So maybe just invest in an interface and start playing about with free VST plug-ins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) 5imon - RME kit is just brilliant - great quality hardware and rock solid drivers. Loads of people on here swear by their Zoom B3s - have you considered that? As far as software goes then I've used Amplitube and thought it was alright but nothing more. Studio devil do something similar and I've always preferred that to the big name stuff (SVX, AmpliTube etc...). Linky: [url="http://www.studiodevil.com/products/virtual_bass_amp_pro/"]http://www.studiodev...l_bass_amp_pro/[/url] there's also a scaled down demo version too, so you can (legally) try before you buy... EDIT - it needs a DAW host though (Cubase, ProTools etc...) so might not be for you. Still really good though. Edited November 14, 2012 by paul_5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyboo Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 I use aforementioned Studio Devil with cabinets from http://www.redwirez.com/ in Reaper DAW to learn playing a bass. Sound-wise it's quite good, though any reported latency over 6ms is noticeable. If latency is really a problem, you can try to use A/D which goes to the PC bus rather then connected through USB. It takes a bit of trial and error until you find what works for you though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brensabre79 Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 In my studio I have: Native Instruments Guitar Rig - has Bass stuff in it too Lots of useful fx some not so useful Ampeg SVX (Good for basic recording sounds when you can't be arsed to fire up the SVT) Amplitube (rubbish) but I tend to just record dry and then use other (non bass specific) plug ins like URS compressors, EQ etc. in the mix. I have also used my Zoom on occasion. I would not ever use a laptop/ipad as my FX unit for live work (I know people who do), latency can be an issue, as can interference, and software crashes mid set are the worst! PABCAK errors are also quite common under pressure of a live show. For live work, where there are no second chances, I prefer to buy solid equipment designed to do one job well, call me a ludite if you will, call me what you like - I won't hear you because my gear will be working properly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) [quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1352897046' post='1868956'] [i][b]5imon - RME kit is just brilliant - great quality hardware and rock solid drivers.[/b][/i] Loads of people on here swear by their Zoom B3s - have you considered that? As far as software goes then I've used Amplitube and thought it was alright but nothing more. Studio devil do something similar and I've always preferred that to the big name stuff (SVX, AmpliTube etc...). Linky: [url="http://www.studiodevil.com/products/virtual_bass_amp_pro/"]http://www.studiodev...l_bass_amp_pro/[/url] there's also a scaled down demo version too, so you can (legally) try before you buy... EDIT - it needs a DAW host though (Cubase, ProTools etc...) so might not be for you. Still really good though. [/quote] RME are unique to my knowledge. they are the only audio interface company rolling their own USB chips. WHich gives them a huge advantage in terms of performance as they can tailor their chip design and driver code far more tightly than any other manufacturer. The result is the best performing, most unlikely to go wrong USB interface you can get. And one of the most expensive (not the most expensive, Metric Halo gear costs more, which you are spending on ADA and the analogue side). RME kit is used by a lot of major broadcasters (obviously their full on MADI range rather than the small fry stuff like the UCX) because its so damned reliable and robust. I've spent a long, long time deliberating which interface I wanted to get, this took a lot of time, which was lucky, because the outlay is seriously significant to me.... It better be bloody incredible! Edited November 14, 2012 by 51m0n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brensabre79 Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 RME user here (Fireface). When I first plugged mine in and ran a mix I'd done on my old MOTU I could not believe how good it sounded! As I said at the time it sounded 'expensive' even though really, it wasn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 I would love to get the RME but I doubt i'll be in that sort of market for the next 10 years. Maybe by then there'll be some real 2nd hand bargains! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brensabre79 Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 By then I'm sure there will be something better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Or the price for that kind of performance will come down. Actually I personally dont think the price of real quality preamps is likely to fall much further, the parts are expensive for real colour preamps (ie top quality transformers) and the market for them is if anything getting bigger I reckon. ADA conversion of the highest quality is still expensive, although a lot of people aren't sure that its worth the money you pay for it, I've never had the chance to compare several top end D/A converters so I couldnt comment. Other than that low latency is difficult, its always been difficult, and will remain difficult - its not about CPU speed in the main these days. Thats why RME roll their own chips, because its the only way to guarantee performance on this scale. Still I think you will pay thi smuch for this level for the forseeable, but you will get more and more features for your money.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurbs Posted November 16, 2012 Author Share Posted November 16, 2012 Thanks guys. The idea around software based effects is more around me wanting to experiment and learn about sound manipulation rather than just a straight replacement. I intend to gig with that kind of setup, just with a A/B in front of the Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 so I can quickly go clean if I need to. FWIIW: the Pro 40 + Reaper gives around 23ms latency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 (edited) I cant cope with 23ms latency Thats the same as being about 8 meters away from your amp, which is really disconcerting to me! Edited November 16, 2012 by 51m0n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurbs Posted November 16, 2012 Author Share Posted November 16, 2012 All this talk about latency, what is the usual latency through a standard digital pre-amp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ennyday Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 [quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1352900755' post='1869048'] I would not ever use a laptop/ipad as my FX unit for live work (I know people who do), latency can be an issue, as can interference, and software crashes mid set are the worst! PABCAK errors are also quite common under pressure of a live show. For live work, where there are no second chances, I prefer to buy solid equipment designed to do one job well, call me a ludite if you will, call me what you like - I won't hear you because my gear will be working properly [/quote] i don´t agree ... a laptop based fx-solution can be stable if you do it right. just don´t use a windows based computer, better go for mac osx and strip down all background processes, disable wifi & bluetooth, add a minimum of 4gb ram and use fast ssd harddiscs. with a good sound-interface latency should not be an issue nowadays. i would say my old-school analogue equipment "crashes" more than my digital fx: dying batteries, broken cables, broken footswitches, etc. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Thurbs' timestamp='1353093069' post='1871656'] All this talk about latency, what is the usual latency through a standard digital pre-amp? [/quote] Depends on the drivers, the chips yada yada.... ASIO drivers you may be looking at more than 20ms(+) for a cheapo interface, down to the RME UCX which is going to get you less than 5ms maybe even as little as 3.5ms. Using any built in kernel style stuff in Windows and the minimum possible woudl be closer to 30ms. Using the standard it gets worse too, if you use the bogstandard MS audio driver. Nothing to do with the speed of the machine either. Macs can manage slightly shorter roundtrips as a rule. All due to the Mac kernel (a FreeBSD unix variant essentially) allowing for more rigorous timing and interrupts and so on than the MS kernel does. Edited November 19, 2012 by 51m0n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 I think he meant in like a Roland modelling amp or the like, which I guess would be pretty much 0 latency Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 It wont be 0ms latency, at the very least there is ADA latency and on top of that there is the (very fast) DSP handling the modelling. But probably sub 2ms on anything decent, I would guess... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 interesting. I'm going to try and figure out how much latency I can hear by playing through my computer and radually increasing latency. I think I get about 3ms at the moment which I don't notice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 The human brain can detect significantly less than a 3ms delay, but only in certain specific ways. For instance your ears are 17cms apart (on average) and that equates to a delay left to right of a sound originating hard right of about 0.5ms. You detect it as the sound feeling like it comes from the right even if the level is identical. Its a great way to achieve panning in a track if you want the level to match - except it doesnt collapse into mono at all well! If you play the direct monitoroed sound and the delayed sound at the same time you will hear less than 3ms of delay, but as phasing and transient blurring. Try it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 I've had problems with that before. I got a very nice guitar sound using a dry track on one side and then a delayed version on the other. When summed to mono it just disappeared. Obviously the delay time I liked meant it was totally out of phase with the dry track. But yeh i'll give it a go when playing. Maybe I don't notice 3ms because I can hear my bass quite loud acoustically when I play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDaddy Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 OP i don't know if this is the kind of thing you mean, but if you have an iPad [url="http://www.digitech.com/en-US/products/ipb-10-programmable-pedalboard"]http://www.digitech.com/en-US/products/ipb-10-programmable-pedalboard[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurbs Posted December 2, 2012 Author Share Posted December 2, 2012 Well I tried out amplitude tonight and found the latency (23ms) was definitely noticeable... I think I am going to give it a miss.... worth a go though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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