Mixing Competition/Learning Resource - January POLL ADDED!

[51m0n]

Easy to click on links to the various mixes:-

redstriper https://soundcloud.com/redstriper-mix-stems/no-2nd-chance-un-mastered-mix
butlerk02 [url="https://soundcloud.com/butlerk02/2nd-chance"]https://soundcloud.c...rk02/2nd-chance[/url]
51m0n [url="https://soundcloud.com/51m0n-1/no-2nd-chance/s-6Tbvx"]https://soundcloud.c...-chance/s-6Tbvx[/url]
OldG [url="https://soundcloud.com/lucy-hastings/bc-mix-final"]https://soundcloud.c...gs/bc-mix-final[/url]
RockfordStone [url="https://soundcloud.com/robslusarmusic/no-2nd-chance"]https://soundcloud.c...c/no-2nd-chance[/url]
Skol303 [url="http://soundcloud.com/skol-mixes/second-chance-by-tacsi"]http://soundcloud.co...chance-by-tacsi[/url]
lurksalot [url="https://soundcloud.com/lurksalot/no-second-chance-again"]https://soundcloud.c...nd-chance-again[/url]
charic [url="https://soundcloud.com/thebrokensky/no-second-chance-bc-mix-comp"]https://soundcloud.c...nce-bc-mix-comp[/url]

Have a listen through, pick your favourite then vote above. Simples!


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We have a photography competition and a composition competion, [url="http://basschat.co.uk/user/969-butlerk02/"]butlerk02[/url] suggested a mix competition the other day, and [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/191647-useful-recording-resources/"]on this thread[/url] that idea seems to have got some traction.

So the idea is whoever wants to take part can download stem tracks of a chosen song and using whatever tools they have at their disposal make the best sounding mix of what is there that they can. To make this more interesting and useful to fellow BC members, if someone has some tracks they would like to see people have a go at they can post the stems on Soundcloud and we can use them to work on. If we run out off sets of stems from BCers there are plenty of resources for that sort of thing on the web, [url="http://www.cambridge-mt.com/MixingSecrets.htm"]here for instance[/url].

If someone produces a great mix, or has a good idea or whatever they should be prepared to divulge how they go tthe result they did, what VSTs they used, settings thereof, any cool tips and tricks, pics can't hurt either.

Xmas being super busy we'll do the actual vote in January so no one has to panic. However our own [url="http://basschat.co.uk/user/2865-redstriper/"]redstriper[/url] has been smart enough to get in there first and upload a set of stem tracks onto SoundCloud for the first mix. You can [url="http://soundcloud.com/redstriper-mix-stems"]download them here[/url], I already have, and its really typical of a set of tracks recorded at a home studio - which is perfect fodder for this type of competition IMO, anyone can mix a track recordded in a top studio by a genius tracking engineer, you just put the faders up and it sdone, this may require a little more effort though....

If anyone uses a mix from these 'competitions' its only fair to credit the mixer on any download or streaming site or media that the mix appears on, since who knows it could lead to some work for the person involved.

Also if anything cool does crop up I reserve the right to post about it in the Recording Blog, and rip off the idea mercilessly (thats the whole point after all).

Remember this is a mix competition rather than a remix competition, by all means be creative, but the focus is on getting the song that was tracked to sound as good as possible, not rewrite it. Thats not to say adding the odd interesting extras isnt allowed, just that a complete rewrite isnt really what we are after....

Enjoy!

Edited January 15, 2013 by 51m0n

[Skol303]

Nice one Si! Great to see this up and running. Should create even more interest in the Recording forum too.

Count me in

[charic]

Nice one Si,

So the first one up is running from now until when, last week of January? Maybe I can get the winner from the composition thread to upload their stems

[redstriper]

I feel honoured to be the guinea pig in this experiment and hope the song isn't too annoying.
I'm not sure what genre it is, but it's very simple and under produced.
It was recorded live in my front room with basic (cheap) gear and the vocals re-recorded later to prevent spill.

I hope anyone who works on it will enjoy themselves and that the recording enthusiasts will find ways of making my band sound flippin' awesome

[Skol303]

Just downloading the stems now... had a quick listen and they all sound very workable - but not without some challenges! All good though.

January deadline suits me as busy with composition challenge at the moment and then likely travelling and/or drunk over Christmas (but obviously not combining the two).

Should be fun. And I'm hoping to learn a bunch of new stuff too

[xilddx]

Fantastic idea!

[untune]

Funnily enough I was thinking about something like this the other day... I've downloaded the stems and already had a crack at balancing everything before the fun starts... should be good!

[RockfordStone]

i'm going to have a crack at this over the weekend, really interested to see how people will interpret this.

should we not have a link to his original mix on here, so we can get an idea of the vibe he has for the song?

[51m0n]

Yeah I think we'll set the poll up on the last week of January.

I think that gives everyone enough time to work on things.

Stems from the Composition Competition thread will be cool on occasion for sure, but the more of a live band we can get ( at least half of the time I'd like stems to have a core live band element) the better. There are very specific and trickier issues involved IMO, with mixing a less than ideally tracked live band than there ever is when mixing something with EZDrummer or similar.

Can I suggest we use something like a K-Meter across the stereo master out to get a maximum level of 0dB at K14?

I know that is going to sound like total gobbledegook to some of you but its a pretty simple idea, [url="http://www.digido.com/how-to-make-better-recordings-part-2.html"]K-Metering is a system designed by Bob Katz[/url], who is nothing if not a mastering legend. In his full on world he uses it to ensure that he masters to a sensible level, and that involves all sorts of calibration and stuff that I dont suggest we use at all.

What it also gives us is a level measuring system that is based upon average volume rather than peak volume, and that means that we can try and stop the loudest mix always being considered the best. If everyone mixes to 0dB K14, then the mixes are going to sound almost the same volume, and the poll will have a lot more meaning.

It will also make none of the mixes ready for release on a CD without a mastering stage, but thats probably to be expected, we're running a mix competition not a mastering or loudness competition!

ANyone needing a K-Meter vst (windows or mac) can download the excellent (and free!) [url="http://www.voxengo.com/product/span/"]Voxengo SPAN[/url], a superb metering tool that no self respecting mix engineer should be without IMO...

Or there is [url="http://code.mzuther.de/kmeter/"]K-Meter by MZuther[/url] which is a windows only VST meter. Its a fair bit simpler to get your head around than SPAN.

Either way just ensure that its the last VST on your master buss and mix to 0dB on the K14 stting and you'll be there.

[charic]

I'll see if either of these will run with ProTools. Although...

I can't help but think part of the the process is mastering and people should be able to use whatever tools are available to them to make the mix sound as good as it can. It could help show up what mastering tools sound better in certain situations etc

[Skol303]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1352973058' post='1869886']Can I suggest we use something like a K-Meter across the stereo master out to get a maximum level of 0dB at K14?[/quote]

Never heard of K-Metering (although I've heard of Bob Katz), but I'll read the article you linked to and learn more about it - see, I'm learning new stuff already!

I pretty much exclusively use Propellerhead Reason as my DAW, which although now features its own brand of plug-in (called Rack Extensions) still doesn't act as a VST host. No matter - that's my problem not yours, so I'll have to find a way around it. I do have a copy of Reaper and Voxengo SPAN (which I use as freq analyser on final mixes), so I guess I could render mixes and check them using SPAN until I hit the golden 0db at K14 (have no idea what that means at present, but I'll find out ).

I also have this which might be of use in this context - I dunno?

[url="http://shop.propellerheads.se/product/flower-audio-loudness-meter/"]http://shop.propelle...loudness-meter/[/url]

Anyway, leave it with me and I'll do some recce to get my head around it.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Skol303

[redstriper]

My original mix is here:
[url="http://soundcloud.com/tacsiband/no-2nd-chance"]http://soundcloud.com/tacsiband/no-2nd-chance[/url]

Steve.

[51m0n]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1352974350' post='1869905']
I'll see if either of these will run with ProTools. Although...

I can't help but think part of the the process is mastering and people should be able to use whatever tools are available to them to make the mix sound as good as it can. It could help show up what mastering tools sound better in certain situations etc
[/quote]

Then we can have mastering competition after the mix competition.

But the problem isnt what you do to make the song sound fab, I didnt say you couldnt do whatever you want, I'm merely saying the final average RMS level shouldnt be more than xdB so that all the mixes can be judged equally.

If you get it louder it will sound better, but it may not actually be a better mix, and the danger is you end up with a batlle for loudness not quality, since loudness trumps quality fo rthe people voting every time, and they wont want to get the levels exactly the same for themselves.

Clearly some judicious use of compression (series, parallel, multiband - whatever floats your boat) and eq on the master buss may get you a more consistent average level, and a louder perceived volume, I cant stop that, and I wouldnt, but if we can do something to get the playing field more even then we should.

Getting mixes up to commercial volume isnt the point of the competition, loudness isnt actually better, and a loudness cometition is completely opposite to what this should be about.

After all, I dont care how loud you can get it at home, a commercial mastering suite run by a pro will get it louder with less artifacts, but thats still no tthe point....

[51m0n]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1352974826' post='1869922']
Never heard of K-Metering (although I've heard of Bob Katz), but I'll read the article you linked to and learn more about it - see, I'm learning new stuff already!

I pretty much exclusively use Propellerhead Reason as my DAW, which although now features its own brand of plug-in (called Rack Extensions) still doesn't act as a VST host. No matter - that's my problem not yours, so I'll have to find a way around it. I do have a copy of Reaper and Voxengo SPAN (which I use as freq analyser on final mixes), so I guess I could render mixes and check them using SPAN until I hit the golden 0db at K14 (have no idea what that means at present, but I'll find out ).

I also have this which might be of use in this context - I dunno?

[url="http://shop.propellerheads.se/product/flower-audio-loudness-meter/"]http://shop.propelle...loudness-meter/[/url]

Anyway, leave it with me and I'll do some recce to get my head around it.
[/quote]

Hmmm, it may be possible to get something close using an RMS meter but the averaging isnt necessarily the same as a 'proper' KMeter.

[redstriper]

Blimey, I'm already on a steep learning curve with all this K-metering business!

So much to get me old head round.......

[51m0n]

I'm certainly not suggesting anyone bother to adopt the full K-metering approach, merely that a KMeter is a very well defined meter of output, and so [i]could[/i] be used to get comparable level between mixes from the get go, making judging a tad easier....

[redstriper]

Final mix levels are always a problem for me when mixing/mastering and I don't fully understand the concepts involved - hopefully this topic will help with that.
The K-meter looks like a good way of levelling the playing field volume wise and I'll check it out asap.

I wonder whether it might be a good idea to have no rules about volume levels and just let everyone do their best to get the best mix at the highest level they can.
We might all learn more that way by comparing the results and if it is simply the loudest wins, that should teach us something too.

That would involve an element of mastering as well as mixing, which may not be part of the plan but it is probably unavoidable since mastering tools are included with most DAWS now.


I'm happy to go with the flow though and I don't really know what I'm talking about here

[51m0n]

Anything that can load VSTs and play a stereo track can be used to MAster to some degree these days . Interestingly a lot of how you approach the mix itself directly translates into what can be mastered loud and what cant. There's a very interesting Pensado's Place ITL about exactly that.

However, mastering isnt about loudness in the first instance, its about preparing tracks for the desired medium (CD, radio, mp3 etc) as a group of tracks (an album, en EP) or as a single track. And what the mastering engineer does the most of is actually that. On top of which they must make the tracks sound as one whole (nopt always as eay as you might think) level wise, and eq wise. There are a raft of techniques that can be used to do this, and finally the last thing they do is bring up the level to a commercially acceptable point, whilst losing dynamics.

If we all mix to K14, then that 'loudening' process, which no one on this site has the tools to do as well as a real mastering engineer in a £200k studio need not happen. If everyone mixes to 0dB K14 then what we are doing os comparing like for like, and if you squished the heck out of your mix it wont matter one jot, because it will be no louder than someone who embraced the transients, and dynamics. The scary truth is the latter mix will usually sound better played quiet or loud in any decent listening environment.

I'm not talking about not using any mixbuss compression if thats your bag, or mixbuss eq, or group comps, or who knows what else you might like to do to get a more glued, consistent, exciting mix. I'm just saying leave the loudening off, everyone get to the same nominal level. Then turn your monitors up. The result will be judging mixes not maximisers...

Edited November 15, 2012 by 51m0n

[redstriper]

OK I think I get that and it would also be very useful for me to have a simple way of making all my mixes come out at the same volume.
I will try and get to grips with K14 asap.

I found this particular track especially difficult volume wise, because it has distinct quiet and louder sections which are hard to balance.

[51m0n]

Had a bit of a play with this RS. You really should be paying a lot more attention to the mic placement on the drums mate

[WalMan]

Will have a look tonight.

Perhaps this is how I get a decent mix on all those other track Si!?

[51m0n]

Might take a while WM

[redstriper]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1352999497' post='1870362']
Had a bit of a play with this RS. You really should be paying a lot more attention to the mic placement on the drums mate
[/quote]

You think

The kick is inside on a cushion in front of the beater, snare is clipped underneath, hi-hat is about an inch over the top.
I have a stem with the snare mic'd on top, but I never used it cos I didn't like the sound - I can upload it if you like?
There was an overhead too, but I forgot to switch it on....

I'm really lazy when it comes to recording....... oh and everything else come to think of it......

[51m0n]

Yeah, you should spend some time listening to the mics before you even try and mke a take. Listen critically, move them around to try and get a bit mroe of what you need, less of what you dont. Come mix time the better you have tracked everything the less you need to do.

Uploading the mic on that was on the top of the snare cant hurt at this point, it may be just whats needed to get a bit of body into it.

The guitars sound fine (like them a lot), the bass is really good for the genre (excellent in fact), the keys are fine. Havent really listened to the vocal yet, but the drums, oh my......

We may be here some time my friend

Edited November 15, 2012 by 51m0n

[redstriper]

I appreciate your analysis Si and it may make me a bit more careful in future...... (or not)
I can only apologise for the poor recording quality and I totally accept my laziness is to blame.
In fact the more I listen, the more ashamed I am - why didn't I choose a better track?
Oh yes, cos there aren't any!

I've uploaded the other snare track and also the original vocal track complete with drum spill in case it helps:

The drums are permanently set up and I don't change the mixer settings between sessions.
I have changed the way I mic the drums recently, in that I got rid of the hi hat mic and just have kick, snare and overhead mics now.
You can hear some of these recent mp3s here:
[url="http://soundcloud.com/rutterio"]http://soundcloud.com/rutterio[/url]

Guitars, bass and keys are DI'd and the vocals recorded with a £20 mic from Thomanns.

I love Cubase, especially on my new fast PC and it's a great tool for song writing, but I'm not a recording geek and I don't know how 95% of it works.

This topic is a bit of a wake up call for me and my recordings can only improve, as I'm sure you'll all agree