Mixing Competition/Learning Resource - January POLL ADDED!

[lurksalot]

I am only just getting my head around Reaper , I can record on it now , I jave just started to grasp the concept of envelopes on each track for volume and panning , I have aquired some headphones (Shure 440 ?) , and I have played with a couple of the EQ VST's you mentioned earlier.
I haven't got as far as the grouping of tracks, effects etc I am not sure what that is all about , I will do some you tube research on that stuff , But I think you are correct about the ear training as well .

[lurksalot]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1359068444' post='1949564']
As for my mix, it went something like this....

Listen to the tracks up at a unity gain [/quote]

Is that like normalizing the tracks to a common gain?

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1359068444' post='1949564']
Set out the tracks and group them all into sensible and useful groups and subgroups, I ended up with:-

FX group
- Plate reverb
- Ambience reverb
- Delay[/quote]

Does this mean you have groups of effects that apply to the whole mix as opposed to applying effects to each track?

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1359068444' post='1949564']
I spent about 4 or 5 hours on the mix[/quote]

I spent that learning how to pan

ed for spelig

Edited January 26, 2013 by lurksalot

[lurksalot]

I think I have sussed the FX thing , creating sub groups as you said but every group is then in a folder which contains the whole track , then you can apply FX to this folder so that the FX affect everything , is that right .

[OldG]

quote 51m0n

Set out the tracks and group them all into sensible and useful groups and subgroups, I ended up with:-

FX group
- Plate reverb
- Ambience reverb
- Delay

Lurksalot said:
Does this mean you have groups of effects that apply to the whole mix as opposed to applying effects to each track?

This also means you have an FX rack to use now... the best way to use it would be to 'send' tracks to the effect you want,
this way you have a clean and effected signal to balance to your taste.

As an example:
Take your lead vocal track and click on the i/o button to open the track routing window > click on 'add new send' and click to choose which effect you want. You can send as many tracks to whichever you wish.
I will typically ( in my FX group) set up a main vox reverb track to send to, balance to my taste and maybe send just the vox reverb off to a delay track for a subtle extra something..

I did pick up on heavy reverb use when commenting on the competition tracks,maybe I'm talking about real basics you all know- but hopefully the following will help...

If you place reverb as an effect to the track directly it tends to overpower or take the voice 'back' into the mix with limited control over whats happening. Using the FX group method lets you adjust very precisely and send again to other FX either wet dry or a combination.

HTH
Mick

Edited January 27, 2013 by OldG

[lurksalot]

Cheers Mick ,
I will do a bit of digging with that info and see what crops up , it sounds a bit odd ATM but I am sure I will pick it up when I have a play with it.
Kev

[51m0n]

Look for info on aux sends in your DAW manual, Lurks...

[redstriper]

[quote name='OldG' timestamp='1359276155' post='1952276']

If you place reverb as an effect to the track directly it tends to overpower or take the voice 'back' into the mix with limited control over whats happening. Using the FX group method lets you adjust very precisely and send again to other FX either wet dry or a combination.

[/quote]

I always use insert effects rather than aux sends and I control the amount of eg. reverb with the mix control.
Is this wrong?

[OldG]

Not 'wrong' really, inserts are very limiting though (as described above) - a compressed vocal will prefer an aux send reverb treatment too... Found a video describing this - try and get round the 'chipmunk' vocal

[media]http://youtu.be/omT9RPsVYhc[/media]

Insert reverb effects start getting tedious when you need to apply a little ambience reverb to several groups(busses) - in a large project that's a lot of setting up time and CPU power taken up unnecessarily ....

[OldG]

Here's a pretty straightforward vid on setting up an aux send reverb track in reaper - should apply to most DAW's. Forgot to mention, the effect on a send should be 100% wet...

[media]http://youtu.be/LRrPc2ZQJsA[/media]

[51m0n]

Using auxes saves on cpu horsepower massively for one thing - a single (stereo) channel of reverb can add reverb as required for 200+ hundred channels - the system merely sums everything at the insert of the aux channel then passes the result through the vst once.

Also some fx definitely sound different to my ears when you use them like this rather than on inserts.

The only problem comes if your channels you are sending from are in groups and you want to be able to control the volume of the entire group by its fader and not change the fx balance - at that point you need cleverer routing than the standard choice - Reaper lets you do this (and pretty much any other routing) although its not trivial.

Insert fx are normally fx you dont want to blend with the original - so EQ and comrpession (when not parallel compressing) - again a good DAW will let you blend any and all insert fx too, which further confuses the issue.

I use Aux sends etc because I'm used to real mixing desks where you couldnt plug 5 fx into every channel insert etc etc, but also fo rthe CPU savings. IMO its a must have technique for getting the most out of your rig and your mixes....

Edited January 28, 2013 by 51m0n

[Skol303]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1359107042' post='1949867']...still waiting to read Skols in depth how to for his mix, will learn a lot from it I'm sure!), if anyone cant follow the terminology of an explanation then it is up to us to help them.[/quote]

Sorry for the delay! I've been up in Scotland over the weekend and haven't been near my 'puter. I'll make an effort to scribble down some notes tonight and post them up.

PS: some great advice (above) coming out of this already

[Skol303]

[quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1358785485' post='1944944']
Hey Paul - I know you like your remix comps,
this might interest you [and maybe others]...............................
[url="http://www.puremix.net/zelab/"]http://www.puremix.net/zelab/[/url]


Garry
[/quote]

I had a look into this remix comp and unfortunately you need to be a paid up member of Puremix to take part: a minimum of $90 for 3 months membership. Looks like a useful site but a little too expensive for my pocket. Shame, as it's a great track and would have been fun to remix!

Thanks anyway Garry and keep us posted if you spot any others.

I've used this website myself in the past - can be hit and miss, but it does a good job of compiling info on various current competition from across the t'interweb:

http://www.remixcomps.com/

[Skol303]

Ok, I've [i]finally[/i] got round to writing up some notes on my mix. Apologies for the delay. Crazy busy at work and dealing with a minor biohazard outbreak at home (Skol Jnr has chickenpox!). So here goes… I'm going to list stuff in (roughly) the order I went about mixing the track, in case that helps anyone:

[b]SET UP[/b]

Once I had the tracks set up in Reason (the DAW I use), I went about listening to each in turn (to get a feel for how each track would need processing) and then I created a rough first mix using the gain control on the Reason mixer (itself an emulation of an [url="http://www.propellerheads.se/products/reason/index.cfm?fuseaction=get_article&article=mixer"]SSL 9000k[/url] mixing desk… but that's not important). I left about 6db of headroom on the master output to allow 'room' for the mix I was going to create.

At this stage I made some initial decisions about the arrangement. I ditched the 2nd djembe - its timing was off so I duplicated the first one in its place. I also duplicated the drum patterns from the 2nd verse and chorus, and repeated these throughout the track. Why? Because I felt the timing wasn't great in the other sections and I didn't have time to fix them - so I chose the most tightly played parts and used these as the basis for the drums. This was achieved by turning the original audio into Rex loops (using a program called [url="http://www.propellerheads.se/products/recycle/"]Recycle[/url]), which enabled me to adjust the 'groove' of the drums slightly and generally tighten everything up. Cheating? Hell yeah!

Edited January 30, 2013 by Skol303

[Skol303]

[b]DRUMS[/b]

I EQ'd the kick as shown below, scooping out the mids and giving it a boost around 1kHz to add some 'click' in order to help it cut through the mix a little better:



I also added some saturation to the kick (mid distortion, again to help it punch through the mix) and finally compression.

The snare top and bottom were EQ'd as shown below and mixed with greater emphasis placed on the bottom sound (i.e. fading out most of the top 'ring' sound).

Top:

Bottom:


Both snares were then fed through another EQ (Trident A-Range), which I use for the purpose of gelling the top and bottom snare sounds together, and adding some musical quality to the overall sound (the Trident is a superbly 'musical' EQ). Here I boosted quite generously at 500Hz and again at 3kHz and 12kHz - adding some 'oomph' to the bottom snare and brightening the top end.

The hi hat… oh man, the hi hat! I almost ditched this completely but doggedly persevered. Here's how I EQ'd it - my aim being to remove as much of the snare bleed as possible and salvage what remained. It wasn't pretty…



Lastly, with the djembe I simply rolled off the lower frequencies (a fairly brutal shelving EQ of -18db at 134Hz) to leave plenty of room for the bass and kick drum.

Each of the drums tracks were then grouped into a sub-mix with it's own separate EQ and (gentle) compression to help 'gel' the various tracks together.

[Skol303]

[b]BASS[/b]

I ran the bass through a Line 6 bass amp/head sim - not really changing the sound too much, but adding some 'warmth' to it. I then added some saturation (mild distortion) to help it cut through the mix and add some upper harmonics. Some moderate compression (4:1 ratio) to even out the sound and a big ol' scoop out of the mid-range using an EQ (a 10db cut at 400Hz), leaving plenty of room for the guitars and other stuff.

I also setup a side-chain compressor on the bass - a separate compressor to 'duck' (reduce the volume of) the baseline by around -2db whenever the kick drum hits. The idea being to help the kick cut through the mix and help reduce the bass and kick drum competing with each other for the low end of things.

[b]GUITARS[/b]

Both guitars were run through separate Line 6 guitar amps. Guitar 1 (panned right in my mix - the first guitar you hear) was run through a 'Blackface' amp/cab simulator. I recorded some automation on the 'wah pedal' effect on this guitar, which you can hear at certain points in the track.

Guitar 2 (panned left) was given a simple 'clean' sound. A second amp was linked up to Guitar 2 and automated to switch on (in place of the 'clean' amp) during the pre-chorus and chorus. This changed the sound to a more distorted tone, giving the song some 'lift' and interest where I felt it was needed (although in hindsight, this probably changed the overall vibe too much!). I also added a further distortion plug-in to this track which kicks in right at the end of the song, giving it further lift during the crescendo (literally the last half bar or so), and adding some nice amp hum at the end. At least I thought it was nice! :-)

Each guitar was run through a separate FET compressor and then summed together in a sub-mix group, which included an EQ and reverb set as shown below:

[Skol303]

[b]KEYS[/b]

Not too much messing with the keys! A fairly steady EQ as shown below, some tape saturation and compression to help fit the sound within the mix without mudding up the mid-range and fighting with the guitars.



[b]VOCALS[/b]

I always mix vocals last, as it helps me place them in the mix and give them the priority the (usually!) deserve. I really like the vocal line in this track - particularly the accent ("rrroad rage" - really nice!), so I wanted it to be quite prominent. The lead vox were treated to some mild overdrive/distortion, an EQ boost around 5kHz and 12kHz (with the low end rolled off beneath 100Hz), plus some compression just to even everything out and make it easier to mix. I added some vocal rides (volume automation) in a few places to tighten up some phrases that the compressor couldn't fix (without squishing everything too much). Lastly I added a fairly generous dollop of warm 'hall' reverb as shown below:



…I also set up an 'echo' effect, which was automated to switch on at certain points to give a kind of 'call and response' to the lead vocal.

The backing vocal was treated much more simply: just an EQ (rolling off the lower frequencies more steeply) and a separate reverb, to help position the backing vocal slightly further 'back' in the soundstage of the mix.

[Skol303]

[b]ARRANGEMENT[/b]

I decided to mess with the arrangement a little. I made the intro more gentle, with the drums pretty much absent (apart from a few snares and the hats) until mid-way through the first verse. The intention here was to help the song build up more towards the chorus. I also added a breakdown during the third verse, removing everything apart from the vocal and one of the guitars. Again, this was to give the song more dynamics and help it build further towards the final chorus and outro.

I also automated the faders of each track to add some dynamics between the verse/chorus and outro. Essentially I made the outro the loudest section (+4db louder than the verse), followed by the chorus (+3db louder than the verse).

[b]MIXDOWN[/b]

I always render my mixes down to a single file and then apply some final effects to the track as a whole (I'd like to call it 'mastering', but that would be a huge injustice to real mastering engineers!). I use an odd trick that I found recommended on a mixing forum, which is to add an EQ to the master bus (i.e. so that it affects the whole mix) and reduce by -2db at 12kHz using a gradual slope (or Q setting). Then render the mix, and add +2db back at 12kHz in when 'mastering'. It sounds pointless, but I've found it bizarrely helps to give the track the perception of greater volume - only slightly, but I notice it (don't ask me why! It's voodoo).

My final 'mastering' effects were set up as shown below. This included:

- An initial EQ to cut a gentle scoop out of the mid-range (helping to reduce 'muddiness') and sharp cut at 4.5kHz (the frequency that our ears find most tiring and annoying!).
- A more 'musical' EQ, including high-pass/low-pass filters at 25Hz and 15Hz (to help create a wee bit of headroom in the final mix).
- A stereo imager, making everything below 255Hz mono and slightly widening everything above this frequency.
- A stereo splitter device, adding a very slight volume boost to the frequencies that had been widened by the stereo imager (above).
- Some fairly gentle compression to help 'glue' the mix together.
- Some gentle reverb, with the aim of helping everything sound like it's occupying the same 'space' (hopefully that makes sense?).



… and that's it! Job done

If you managed to read all that then hopefully some of it was useful. I doubt I'll be giving such detailed notes of each mix, but I thought I'd make the effort with this first one in case it helps other folks. Happy to answer any questions, etc...

[51m0n]

Top work chap!

I used to use stereo wideners quite a lot (I did for som eof the backiung on Kits stuff, because so much is going on). I find it works really well on seperate components (ie a BV group) of the the mix, but if you apply it to the whole mixit sort of cancels itself out, it still works, but not as mucxh as if one or two parts of the mix step super wide. And it tends to not collapse to mono so well - not that that ever worried Bruce Swedien, and if he didnt care why should I

Love the way these software plugins call themselves things like a FET compressor, there isnt a FET in there anywhere, and I bet it doesnt actually behave like a FET (does it raise the noise floor significantly for instance?) - it will be a fast attack compressor, with a very short RMS time on the sidechain 'circuit' (sub 1ms or even just peak), and will be supposed to feel like an 1176 a bit. I suppose they are trying to get people to understand what they are after, but I've come to prefer names like The Glue, and Thrillseeker LA, they dont realy tell you what is supposedly emulated, but they give you a clue as to what the intended use might be.

Weird about the eq on the 2buss, and then to reverse it on the rendered file. Never tried that, but a lot of eqs have slightly diferent curves on a reduction as opposed to an increase (in the analog domain anyway). Theoretically the sake digital eq applied at the same frquency with the same Q to add a reduction of n dB of gain and then applied again with an addition of n dB of gain should null with the file with no eq applied, however its possible rounding errors may get in there somewhere, although I doubt you'd hear the difference. If I get the time I may try that - interesting...

I really thought youd re-amped the keys, was it 'quite a lot' of tape saturation going on??

Ta for all the details!!

[redstriper]

Thanks a lot for that great in depth analysis Skol, I will listen again to your mix with new ears now.
It puts my mix to shame - just a few pre sets and none of the fancy stuff for me!
I will try and utilise some of your ideas on my next project - we just recorded a new album, (10 tracks in one evening) and I'm about to start on the mixing.......

[OldG]

Thanks also for the step by step Skol, I have 'borrowed' the stereo image/split on the 2buss - just what I needed!

You got me gassing that Softube gear too...

[OldG]

[quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1359545945' post='1956293']
Thanks a lot for that great in depth analysis Skol, I will listen again to your mix with new ears now.
It puts my mix to shame - just a few pre sets and none of the fancy stuff for me!
I will try and utilise some of your ideas on my next project - we just recorded a new album, (10 tracks in one evening) and I'm about to start on the mixing.......
[/quote]

I think the best thing to come out of all this is, that you/we will probably listen to our [i][b]own[/b][/i] efforts with new ears...
I gotta get away from presets too - your not alone there

Good luck with the the new album,man

[Skol303]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1359540003' post='1956196']Ta for all the details!![/quote]
No probs Si! I actually enjoyed scribbling that description - made me think about how I approach my mixes.

Interesting point you make about stereo widening. I'll try applying it to just a few tracks (or maybe only one) next time and compare. The Softube FET compressor is actually a great tool - best compressor I've used to date - it's super fast and has a nice 'character' all of its own, But you're right in that it's obviously a simulation of a real Field Effect Transistor unit! That said, Softube do a fantastic job of emulating vintage analogue gear - it's kinda their specialty - and I picked this plug-in up for cheap when it was first launched as a plug-in for Reason. The VST version is too pricey for my pocket, but worth the investment (IMO) if you ever see it on special offer). Details [url="http://www.softube.com/fet_compressor.php"]here[/url].

PS: forgot to mention earlier that I set up a Haas effect on each guitar (or at least I tried to!) - i.e. duplicating each guitar channel, panning each hard left/right and its duplicate to the opposite position (left or right) with a -10db drop in volume (compared to the original guitar channel) and a delay of around 30ms. The idea is this 'widens' the sound by simulating the way our ears naturally hear things. Thought I'd add this here for anyone unfamiliar with the effect.

[quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1359545945' post='1956293']Thanks a lot for that great in depth analysis Skol, I will listen again to your mix with new ears now.
It puts my mix to shame - just a few pre sets and none of the fancy stuff for me! I will try and utilise some of your ideas on my next project - we just recorded a new album, (10 tracks in one evening) and I'm about to start on the mixing.......[/quote]
It's actually a lot less fancy than I probably make it sound! And all just things I've learned over the past two years, since I got back into making music. My advice would be to take it step by step and just try to incorporate a new technique or idea in each new mix you produce, rather than trying to learn loads of new stuff at once (which I personally find a bit overwhelming). I'm [i]definitely[/i] no expert - just someone with a bit of patience and a willingness to learn - that's literally all you need to start making big improvements.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Skol303

[Skol303]

[quote name='OldG' timestamp='1359548403' post='1956341']You got me gassing that Softube gear too...[/quote]

Ah, you're not the only one! They make [i]great[/i] plug-ins... truly some of the best you can buy without spending stupid money, in my opinion. But even still they're not cheap. Keep an eye out for bundles: they did a recent offer with the FET Compressor, the Trident A-Range EQ and something else (which I forget) for around $100 all in. The Trident is definitely worth looking at. It's probably the last EQ I'll ever consider spending money on... it's got a very analogue feel (no visual assistance, it's all ears when using it) but it's a very 'musical' EQ with a fantastic character.

I think you can download demos for all of their products which might be worth playing with...

[charic]

Plugin GAS is deadly I currently want :


[url="http://www.waves.com/content.aspx?id=11818&gclid=CNyghNiMkLUCFcjKtAodWgoA0Q"]http://www.waves.com...CFcjKtAodWgoA0Q[/url] ($200)

and / or recently announced :

The waves GEQ



[url="http://www.gearslutz.com/board/winter-namm-2013/806086-namm-waves-audio-introduces-geq-graphic-equalizer-plugin.html"]http://www.gearslutz...zer-plugin.html[/url]

[redstriper]

[quote name='OldG' timestamp='1359548426' post='1956342']
I think the best thing to come out of all this is, that you/we will probably listen to our [i][b]own[/b][/i] efforts with new ears...
I gotta get away from presets too - your not alone there

Good luck with the the new album,man
[/quote]

Thanks and also thanks for your links about using busses for FX - I'm kind of half way there on that one.
It's hard to break old bad habits and I use a project template for all my band recordings, which has the same pre set plug ins on each track.
I told you I was lazy

The new album is all in Welsh and it will be ruff and ready, with all the tracks recorded in one session.
We are also starting on a new English album next week - we've got so many new songs and this is the time to record them, before the gigging season starts again.
I'll post a link to both albums when they're done.

Thanks again to all involved in this competition, the knowledge I've already gained is invaluable.

Steve.