redstriper Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1352973058' post='1869886'] Can I suggest we use something like a K-Meter across the stereo master out to get a maximum level of 0dB at K14? Just ensure that its the last VST on your master buss and mix to 0dB on the K14 stting and you'll be there. [/quote] I'm struggling with this - I got the K-meter and I read the user guide, but I can't work out how to use it. Can you give some very simple instructions please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 16, 2012 Author Share Posted November 16, 2012 (edited) [quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1353016994' post='1870667'] I appreciate your analysis Si and it may make me a bit more careful in future...... (or not) I can only apologise for the poor recording quality and I totally accept my laziness is to blame. In fact the more I listen, the more ashamed I am - why didn't I choose a better track? Oh yes, cos there aren't any! I've uploaded the other snare track and also the original vocal track complete with drum spill in case it helps: The drums are permanently set up and I don't change the mixer settings between sessions. I have changed the way I mic the drums recently, in that I got rid of the hi hat mic and just have kick, snare and overhead mics now. You can hear some of these recent mp3s here: [url="http://soundcloud.com/rutterio"]http://soundcloud.com/rutterio[/url] Guitars, bass and keys are DI'd and the vocals recorded with a £20 mic from Thomanns. I love Cubase, especially on my new fast PC and it's a great tool for song writing, but I'm not a recording geek and I don't know how 95% of it works. This topic is a bit of a wake up call for me and my recordings can only improve, as I'm sure you'll all agree [/quote] Mate, this is precisely why I want this to be a learning resource rather than a other 'mix off' competition nonsense Well with the drums permanently set up you have no excuse now Everything in the signal chain has a knock on affect on the next stage in the process. So the better rehearsed you are the easier it is to record a great performance, the better the kit is the easier it is to get great sounds, the better the mic position the better the sound captured. Blah blah blah. I think the sounds you have captured are pretty typical actually, this is exactly the kind of thing that people get when they are just doing a quick recording to document a song. The thing is, get out of the habit of thinking its just a quick and dirty recording. Spend a bit of time making it easier to always capture great sounds, and then you can worry about performance only when you are recording. Every time you record (these days) its something you could put on the web, or release as a part of an album. So record it like its going to be! You dont need mega expensive kit to capture great sounds, kit with mojo can be damned cool, but you do need to use your ears to get the best out of any of it, and that takes a little time initially. If you spent a few hours once sorting out the kit and the mic positions, then document those positions (ie take photos from all angles) so you can change the heads at a later date, or sort things out of someone bumps them. Then with a permanent set up you can take that whole "Is it the mic position" thing out if the equation. We do something very similar in the live room I usually use. There is a studio kit, it is set up always, it never gets moved with other than to change skins and record. It is pretty much permanently mic'ed and all mic positions are documented. The process of finding the mic positions took a long time, but its done now. We always run off a quick recording and check that all the individual tracks sound good and the whole lot together are great and nothing has gone a bit squirly in the meantime. Its done while the drummer is warming up, and they dont even realise we do it usually. They often want to hear a bit of the drums anyway though, so we can play back to them what we captured straight away. Theres nothing to be embarrased about here. Its totally typical of the kind of thing I get asked to mix all the time, and sometimes the tracking was done in 'proper' studios. The Kit Richardson EP had some terrible mistakes on one kick drum mic on one song (luckily there was another mic on the kick or all bets would have been off) - basically they tracked with a noise gate on the channel and didnt check it between songs, song b was quieter than song a (for the drummer) and the gate didnt open on half the beats. If we learn anything from that its dont use noise gates down to tape on the drum kit Edited November 16, 2012 by 51m0n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 16, 2012 Author Share Posted November 16, 2012 [quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1353021557' post='1870762'] I'm struggling with this - I got the K-meter and I read the user guide, but I can't work out how to use it. Can you give some very simple instructions please. [/quote] Which version of Cubase do you run? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Thanks again - more great advice there. I learned about the dangers of noise gates some time ago and I don't use any processing while recording now. You are absolutely right about spending time with the drums and mic placement, it can't be that hard, especially with such a small kit - we don't use any toms, just kick, snare hi hat, ride and crash. I quite like the current set up which is close mic'd snare and kick, with one overhead. But I'm far from being an audiophile and the song is always the important thing for me, rather than the recording. We also have a new drummer, (since the one on this recording) so the kit sounds quite different again and he's had to learn our live set very quickly. We spend much more time writing and arranging the songs, so the recording is almost an after thought and we treat everything as a demo. I just hit record when it feels right and hope for the best. But quite a few of these 'demos' end up on the radio and the BBC DJ said he'd play more if the quality was better. I use Cubase 5 and I put the K-meter in the output and set it to K14, but the cubase master output over rides it and I don't know how to set it to 0db. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 [quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1353067282' post='1871145'] You are absolutely right about spending time with the drums and mic placement, it can't be that hard... [/quote] It can be People have dedicated their entire lives to mic placements and selection but a little knowledge and experience goes a long way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 16, 2012 Author Share Posted November 16, 2012 [quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1353067282' post='1871145'] Thanks again - more great advice there. I learned about the dangers of noise gates some time ago and I don't use any processing while recording now. You are absolutely right about spending time with the drums and mic placement, it can't be that hard, especially with such a small kit - we don't use any toms, just kick, snare hi hat, ride and crash. I quite like the current set up which is close mic'd snare and kick, with one overhead. But I'm far from being an audiophile and the song is always the important thing for me, rather than the recording. We also have a new drummer, (since the one on this recording) so the kit sounds quite different again and he's had to learn our live set very quickly. We spend much more time writing and arranging the songs, so the recording is almost an after thought and we treat everything as a demo. I just hit record when it feels right and hope for the best. But quite a few of these 'demos' end up on the radio and the BBC DJ said he'd play more if the quality was better. I use Cubase 5 and I put the K-meter in the output and set it to K14, but the cubase master output over rides it and I don't know how to set it to 0db. [/quote] Ok, you are doing the right thing wioth where you are putting the KMeter - slap it on the output buss insert. Then if you drop the master faders the K-meter will drop its level accordingly. Its not showing the peak level (far far from it) its showing an average level over time, so just set your master output so that the output sits where it just comes up to 0dB on the KMeter. I hasten to add this isnt how yu would normally use a KMeter, there is no issue with going over 0 on a KMeter for loud stuff normally - just avoid the red really, all I'm trying to do is find a way of getting al the mixes about the same volume, and this should be a pretty good and easily reproducable way of doing so for everyone (I hope!). If it porves too tricky we'll have to bin the idea I think... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1353067833' post='1871154'] It can be People have dedicated their entire lives to mic placements and selection but a little knowledge and experience goes a long way [/quote] I wish one of those people would come round here and get stuck in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockfordStone Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 im torn between mixing this at the weekend or recording on of my songs..... what to do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Setting the K-meter to not peak over 0db is possible since it has a read out of the peak dbs - shame it doesn't have a pre set for it (I love pre sets), but it produces a very quiet result. I usually set the output meter in Cubase as loud as possible without clipping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 16, 2012 Author Share Posted November 16, 2012 Yes it will seem very quiet in the first instance. Turn your monitors up at the amp! There are very good reasons to mix at sane levels in the box (ie on a DAW). The only time you need to get it loud is when you reach the final mastering process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockfordStone Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 going to have a crack at this now, testing out reaper for this. lets see how we go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skol303 Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 Ok, I think I've sussed this K-meter business (made interesting reading!). Si: I'm assuming here that it's as simple as... 1. Produce my mix in Reason as standard 2. Render and output it as a wav, or whatever 3. Load it up into Reaper with the SPAN plug-in enabled 4. Select 'K-14' under 'metering' in the plug-in 5. Turn down the master fader of the mix until it's peaking at 0db ... hopefully that's it (?). If so, I'm sorted. If not, please help! Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockfordStone Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 ive got a nice sounding mix of this, if i could only convince reaper to mix it down onto mp3.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldG Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 (edited) [quote name='RockfordStone' timestamp='1353176192' post='1872474'] ive got a nice sounding mix of this, if i could only convince reaper to mix it down onto mp3.... [/quote] Have you dropped a LAME encoder into your Reaper program folder? Reaper needs this to create mp3's, but doesn't come with the install... link if you need it [url="http://free-codecs.com/lame_encoder_download.htm"]http://free-codecs.com/lame_encoder_download.htm[/url] Edited November 18, 2012 by OldG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 Just a reminder, that I recently uploaded 2 extra stems of the snare and guide vocal tracks - not sure how useful they are. There are now 14 stems in total. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 18, 2012 Author Share Posted November 18, 2012 [quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1353175112' post='1872462'] Ok, I think I've sussed this K-meter business (made interesting reading!). Si: I'm assuming here that it's as simple as... 1. Produce my mix in Reason as standard 2. Render and output it as a wav, or whatever 3. Load it up into Reaper with the SPAN plug-in enabled 4. Select 'K-14' under 'metering' in the plug-in 5. Turn down the master fader of the mix until it's peaking at 0db ... hopefully that's it (?). If so, I'm sorted. If not, please help! Paul [/quote] That will do it yup. Nice one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 18, 2012 Author Share Posted November 18, 2012 (edited) [quote name='RockfordStone' timestamp='1353176192' post='1872474'] ive got a nice sounding mix of this, if i could only convince reaper to mix it down onto mp3.... [/quote] [quote name='OldG' timestamp='1353227744' post='1872743'] Have you dropped a LAME encoder into your Reaper program folder? Reaper needs this to create mp3's, but doesn't come with the install... link if you need it [url="http://free-codecs.com/lame_encoder_download.htm"]http://free-codecs.c...er_download.htm[/url] [/quote] Yup, right answer. Actually I do all my mp3 encoding in Foobar2000 (which uses LAME too), and tagging with a different program again (name escapes me and I'm not on the machine in question) that lets me embed ISRC codes into the mp3s. Edited November 18, 2012 by 51m0n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skol303 Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1353243929' post='1872884'] That will do it yup. Nice one [/quote] Great! Easy peasy Looking forward to this project... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TenLetters Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 I dont post very often but I think this is a great idea so going to be giving it ago! I also have a song or two which I would be more than happy to supply stems for to see what others do with them. I will put the full tracks up [url="http://soundcloud.com/adam-wells-3"]here[/url] shortly if people are interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockfordStone Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1353244073' post='1872892'] Yup, right answer. Actually I do all my mp3 encoding in Foobar2000 (which uses LAME too), and tagging with a different program again (name escapes me and I'm not on the machine in question) that lets me embed ISRC codes into the mp3s. [/quote] thanks guys, i did work it out in the end, i think ive finished the mix, going to listen to it tonight with fresh ears before posting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 19, 2012 Author Share Posted November 19, 2012 Crikey, we arent looking to put a poll up until January, dont feel you cant sit on it for a while if you want to.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 19, 2012 Author Share Posted November 19, 2012 [quote name='TenLetters' timestamp='1353271795' post='1873160'] I dont post very often but I think this is a great idea so going to be giving it ago! I also have a song or two which I would be more than happy to supply stems for to see what others do with them. I will put the full tracks up [url="http://soundcloud.com/adam-wells-3"]here[/url] shortly if people are interested. [/quote] I'm sure people will be interested. May have to have a seperate thread for notifications that someone wants to add as ong for consideration? Not sure how that will work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockfordStone Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1353318405' post='1873460'] Crikey, we arent looking to put a poll up until January, dont feel you cant sit on it for a while if you want to.... [/quote] i might do that, but you will have to remind me or else ill forget Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skol303 Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Just giving this a quick bump. Also, I was wondering whether a couple of reference tracks could be suggested by the Tacsi lads, or whether it's just up to us to work on the mix as we see fit? Probably the latter is more fun but thought I'd ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 [quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1354578650' post='1887768'] I was wondering whether a couple of reference tracks could be suggested by the Tacsi lads [/quote] I guess you mean particular tracks by other bands that we'd like to sound like, in which case no, we haven't got that kind of vision. I can say that we like 70s reggae, funk and soul music and this song started with the bass line, at a time when I was listening to a lot of Fela Kuti. We really appreciate the work that any of you put into it and there are absolutely no rules as far as we are concerned. Feel free to make us sound however you feel works best and hopefully have some fun with it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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