Still trying to get my head around head styles. Any skinny anywhere?

[BassTractor]

So I'm used to expecting (from a bass amp at least) that a tube amp has tubey sound and that an hi-fi style amp has this revealing character that shows the wonderfulness of a good bassist, and bluntly exposes me.

So far so good.

But then, people rave about or dislike amps that have "that typical GK sound" or "that typical TC Electronic sound".

This far not good anymore.


So, is there any web-resource or thread here that gives the skinny on this subject matter, as in how different brands or series sound, or what their sound design is about?
I've done quite some searches, but haven't found a dedicated thread, and else feel the info is much scattered, and often very unclear for a noob like myself.


Worthy a thread?
Sticky?
Doable?


best,
bert

Edited November 14, 2012 by BassTractor

[brensabre79]

Hey Bert

Its such a difficult thing to describe in a way that resonates with every reader. One mans meat etc etc.

how I would describe the tone of an amp is probably not the way you would. e.g. Woolly = Warm, Crisp = Sterile etc.

GENERALLY speaking, the tube amps are used by people who want a slightly softer edged sound because, when you drive tubes, the sound 'breaks up' (starts to distort) in a warm, smooth way. You can still get a very HiFi sound from a tube amp (some of the most expensive Hi-Fi's are tube).

Transistor (Solid-state) based amps tend not to sound so pleasant when they start to distort, a bit more brittle and nasty. So they tend to be played more by people who don't really want the warm overdriven sound of a tube amp, but a crisp, clean sound.

Its also a lot easier (and cheaper) to get more power out of a solid state amp as the components are cheaper, and last longer, so you can have a very loud, very clean amp quite easily. If you want a very loud tube amp you basically have to add more tubes, which is expensive and difficult to do. Hence a 300w all tube amp will cost over £1,000, wheras you can get a 300w solid state amp for £100.

The best compromise of these is a hybrid amp, which has a tube pre-amp (for the valvey warmth) and a solid state power section (for cost and durability) and they generally sound pretty good for it.

Now the thing is, a number of manufacturers make some very similar products, in a very similar way, for a very similar price. SO they need to differentiate themselves. A large number of these manufacturers also make the more expensive All-tube amps, and try to replicate the sound of those with their Hybrids. So if you look at Orange and Ampeg for example you'll be getting quite a 'dirty' tubey sound from them because they have been designed to sound a bit like an all tube amp.

Many manufacturers also have a loyal following based on a classic 'sound' and the new products they bring out need to have at least a passing similarity to that sound for their loyal customers to be satisfied. This is basically pre-shaping the EQ settings so that when you plug in an Ampeg or an Eden amp, it'll sound pretty much like an Ampeg or an Eden.

Other manufacturers prefer to trade on the versatility of their range of amps too, so you won't find so many people going on about 'that Genz-Benz' sound for example, as their range consists of a few amps that are very different from each other in character.

The bottom line is you need to try out a number of amps and find what suits your ears, your idea of what you should sound like. You're right in that the more technical players generally prefer the Hi-Fi sounding amps because all the subtlety of their technique comes through. But for many these amps can sound sterile, no personality. For others, the sound of the amp is very much integral to their sound and the subtlety is in the tone.

Well thats my take on things. I hope it helps, probably not

[BassTractor]

Hey Brensabre,

Thanks, man!
Yeah, even though much of this was known to me (I must have been unclear) this was much helping indeed - especially your remarks about brand differentiation and its repercussions on different brands.

I get "tubey" and "ss", and I get Hi-Fi.
What I don't get is what people mean with "that typical <brand> sound".
So I was thinking along the lines of a stick list with short characteristiscs of the gear that often is discussed here, say:



Gallien Krueger: sounds like <this>

Genz Benz:
- Shuttles: sound like <this>
- Streamliners: sound like <that>

tc electronic: sounds like <thusly> except the rh750 which is more like <such>



The real question is: "is BC served with such a list, is it doable, and will it work?"


best,
bert

[Mr. Foxen]

Amps would have to have very few knobs on them to be able to make such a generalisation with any validity. Not that that will stop anyone. Stuff with really limited eq, like the 3 band valve hybrids, the bass Terror and the Hartke LH things, those in theory are the same eq voicing, but different gain levels. The more eq control you have, the easier it is to get it wrong, and most active preamp SS stuff has +/-15 db on the knobs, which is an enormous range.

[bertbass]

Not sure I agree with that. A marshall always sounds like a Marshall and a Hiwatt always sounds like a Hiwatt and no amount of EQ or fiddling will make one sound like the other, also, a SS amp will never sound like a valve amp. It might come close but never the same and visa versa.

I think that BassTractor has a valid idea here and basschat is full of threads about what people like and dislike about the sound of their own amps, that's why there are so many different amps being manufactured in the first place. Every manufacturer is convinced that their amp sounds different to everyone else and hopes that we agree.

I'll start it off. I can say that a Roost will sound pretty close to a Hiwatt as will a 100 Top and of course a Mywatt and probably a Reeves but I've never tried one.

[xgsjx]

I don't know how an accurate list could be made unless the same bass & cab is used with every comparison.
A couple of pedals & almost any amp can sound similar to any other, the only difference being the quality of the gear & the overall sound coming out. When it comes to studio recording, the producer can make your bass sound like anyhing you want.

I still don't get why someone wants to sound like "insert your fave bass player here"? Unless you're playing in a tribute band.

"Yay, you sound just like JJ, but not as good at playing". What a compliment!

[brensabre79]

Sorry, what I was getting at was if you don't have a consistent reference then any such description is useless. Theres only the sliding scale of dirty vs clean - the rest is down to EQ, everyone has their own 'sound' particular to them.
So...

A GK Amp, has that sort of GK sound

An Ampeg, sounds like... an Ampeg

The common point of reference is the gear itself. IF you haven't played on that gear then its a bit like trying to describe the colour of grass to a blind person isn't it?

Take my friend James, he's easy to recognise because he looks almost exactly like Roger, you don't know Roger? Oh well he looks like a cross between Alan Sugar and Sid Vicious but with glasses Could you spot my friend James in a crowd?

[brensabre79]

A better comparison might be with particular musicians / songs:

...as in "I really like that sound on the first Yes album, what equipment was used?" The net is full of geeksome lists like this - they can be useful as a starting point of reference. You'll never sound like Chris Squire (only he can) but if you say - I'd like an amp that sounds like him its a consistent point of reference...

Even then its not exactly an exact science

[BassTractor]

Edit: written before Brensabre's last posts, so my reference to science is not a response to his.



Thanks for the contributions, folks.

For me this is not about science. Simply put, it's mostly about help for noobs and others who have no substantial gear experience.


As long as people can talk about "that typical <brand> sound" and be understood by many others, one can also put words to it in such a way that more people get to grips with what is talked about.
In my Hi-Fi days, we'd advise Infinity speakers for people who loved GRP-brand West-coast popjazz. People who'd just play classical music would be advised to rather buy Bowers &amp; Wilkins. Also, we'd be able to put to words how these speakers would respond to different instrument constellations and amps.

Surely something of the same goes for bass amps without denying the implications of different basses and different playing techniques.


Alternatively, how about if people post links to say YouTube vids when they come across something that really shows "that typical <brand> sound". Us noobs would be greatly helped, I'm sure.


best,
bert

Edited November 16, 2012 by BassTractor

[xgsjx]

It's a good idea in theory, but youtube clips are gonna sound like the speakers you're playing them through.

[Jack]

[quote name='BasTractor' timestamp='1353064443' post='1871093']
Alternatively, how about if people post links to say YouTube vids when they come across something that really shows "that typical sound". Us noobs would be greatly helped, I'm sure.
[/quote]

Hi Bert, I know you think we're just being difficult but this is actually a really hard and subjective thing to do. On the other hand, most companies now produce product demo videos and put them on youtube. Maybe try looking through several from the same manufacturer?

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='bertbass' timestamp='1353020594' post='1870739']
Not sure I agree with that. A marshall always sounds like a Marshall and a Hiwatt always sounds like a Hiwatt and no amount of EQ or fiddling will make one sound like the other, also, a SS amp will never sound like a valve amp. It might come close but never the same and visa versa.
[/quote]

My Hiwatts sound different to each other. And loads of people are after a variant on the DR103 I have with a dirtier sound. Passive valve EQ on them are still pretty limited in range you you can't stray for from the sound they have individually. I've had tons of amps that sound like Marshalls, but I can usually fix them so they work properly.

Edit: typo

Edited November 16, 2012 by Mr. Foxen

[bertbass]

All my Hiwatts sounded the same, sort of like Hiwatts actually. That's why I used them.

[brensabre79]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1353082354' post='1871470']
I've had tons of amps that sound like Marshalls, but I can usually fix them so they work properly.
[/quote]



[quote]
In my Hi-Fi days, we'd advise Infinity speakers for people who loved GRP-brand West-coast popjazz. People who'd just play classical music would be advised to rather buy Bowers &amp; Wilkins. Also, we'd be able to put to words how these speakers would respond to different instrument constellations and amps.
[/quote]

I see what you're getting at to some extent, but in order to advise it requires a thorough knowledge of all the products in the range from a singular perspective. Like I said, one mans 'woolly and undefined' is another mans 'warm and fuzzy' - one mans 'crisp, clear and bright' is another mans 'harsh, clinical and lacking in bo**ocks!'

As an example, I have absolutely no idea what GRP-brand West-coast popjazz sounds like, so the reference means nothing to me. I don't listen to much classical either so I don't have the faintest idea whether to buy Infinity or B&W speakers. It can help, to some extent but can also often be completely misunderstood...

If you play mostly modern jazz, I could recommend a whole heap of amps you might like the sound of. If you play old school rock theres also a range of amps that will suit - many the same ones...

[BassTractor]

[color=#ffffff].[/color]
[color=#ffffff].[/color]
Thanks for your continued contribution, guys!
Here's some response to some of it:

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1353066243' post='1871120']
It's a good idea in theory, but youtube clips are gonna sound like the speakers you're playing them through.
[/quote]

Good point, but imho not a big problem. One can judge a lot of stuff through limited speakers. It's the difference between the signals that is telling. For example, it is quite easy while watching a tv programme to notice that the recording being played has great sound quality even though the tv set's speakers are very limited.


[quote name='Jack' timestamp='1353081279' post='1871447']
I know you think we're just being difficult
[/quote]

Er... You don't know, and I don't think.


[quote name='Jack' timestamp='1353081279' post='1871447']
but this is actually a really hard and subjective thing to do.
[/quote]

... but maybe a trifle condescending?
Hard and subjective just are not limitations, imho. Rather interesting instead.


[quote name='Jack' timestamp='1353081279' post='1871447']
most companies now produce product demo videos and put them on youtube. Maybe try looking through several from the same manufacturer?
[/quote]

Fantastic idea. Never even crossed my mind. Thanks!


[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1353087680' post='1871580']
I see what you're getting at to some extent, but in order to advise it requires a thorough knowledge of all the products in the range from a singular perspective. Like I said, one mans 'woolly and undefined' is another mans 'warm and fuzzy' - one mans 'crisp, clear and bright' is another mans 'harsh, clinical and lacking in bo**ocks!'
[/quote]

Yup, and I think these things are major drawbacks of what I inquired about.


[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1353087680' post='1871580']
As an example, I have absolutely no idea what GRP-brand West-coast popjazz sounds like, so the reference means nothing to me. I don't listen to much classical either so I don't have the faintest idea whether to buy Infinity or B&W speakers. It can help, to some extent but can also often be completely misunderstood...
[/quote]

Yeah, but you did get the gist, and that's what it is about.

PS, I think you'd like the more newfangled plasma speakers from the last decade, but beware: they burn GAS!


best,
bert

[brensabre79]

[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1353096591' post='1871697']
[color=#ffffff].[/color]
PS, I think you'd like the more newfangled plasma speakers from the last decade, but beware: they burn GAS!
[/quote]

I'll stick with my Mackie HR824s thanks I've got 3 pairs and I know what they sound like

SO I'll turn this thing around here...

What sort of sound are you looking for? Maybe between us we can make some recommendations...

[BassTractor]

[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1353346006' post='1874018']
What sort of sound are you looking for? Maybe between us we can make some recommendations...
[/quote]

Thanks for staying around, man. I appreciate.
It's not that I personally was looking for gear. For me it was about offering everyone like myself - be it noobs or people with limited amp experience - a chance to read short texts on the specifics of often talked about gear, and "that typical <brand> sound".

But right I now feel it's best left to YouTube. It just hadn't crossed my mind that factory's sound samples would be out on the web.
I still trust experienced people's words more than an unknown's vid review or ad, but that may be just me.


Thanks anyway!


best,
bert

[Thurbs]

I also think that it is impossible to rule out the differences in guitars being used in these amps + the way they are played.

Creating music starts with your fingers and you can make a massive difference in the sound simply by playing differently. Throw in strings, action, wood, freted/fretless, active/passive, pickups, leads, effects... the water is very muddy.