In-ear monitoring

[ped]

[quote name='Bigwan' post='232444' date='Jul 4 2008, 08:43 AM']Hi Ped,

I believe UB40's bass player (name escapes me right now) had something similar to the pleasure board built. Details are in a (fairly) recent BGM interview. Maybe cheaper than a pleasure board?[/quote]

Yes I remember that too now you mention it. I will see if I can find out something, I seem to recall a picture of him with a headless cricket bat style bass with one...

cheers
ped

[peted]

Gah! this thread has me GAS-ing for in-ear monitoring now. I can't imagine anything better than carrying around your 'rig' inside your bass case and having the clarity of earphones.

And I'm in the final throes of building an Omni10 for live sound. Damn you all!

[ped]

Until you try it you won't know how amazing it is! It is even better with a wedge next to you for a bit of 'feeling' so the omni10 would probably be useful in an IEM setup.

Cheers
ped

[Bigwan]

I'd love to go the in-ear monitoring route, but the rest of the band wouldn't be too keen I don't think. I couldn't really see me doing it on my own as it's just something else to carry as I'd still need an amp for them to hear me. They're all for 'quite on stage, let the PA do the work' but just won't go the whole hog...

If it were up to me we'd be gigging with an electronic drum kit, 3 pods and in ears all the way!

[ped]

I know what you mean, but most decent venues will have monitors which the band will be able to hear you from anyway. Most of the time my band mates couldn't hear my amplifier for the monitor levels anyway, or I am too far away etc.

Even so, IEMs make great sense even if you have an amplifier too.. you can hear everything so much more clearly.

ped

[Bigwan]

[quote name='ped' post='232531' date='Jul 4 2008, 11:18 AM']I know what you mean, but most decent venues will have monitors which the band will be able to hear you from anyway.[/quote]

I must never have played a decent venue then!

Do you just monitor yourself or do you do the whole band from the mixer? I might give monitoring myself a go at band practice next week just to see how it goes (I have a Johnson J-station and a set of bose tri-port in-ears that I could use just for the purposes of experimentation).

[ped]

Hehe my philosophy increasingly tends to be that if the venue doesn't have decent PA support with monitors etc then it isn't worth playing, too much hassle etc.

I just monitor myself - I use some E2c's which have the foam tips so that they are not noise cancelling INTENTIONALLY - the band are made a bit quieter as though I am wearing weak-ish ear buds so then I turn my bass signal to match the volume of the band in my ears, so the result is a really nice volume where my bass sounds like it does in the studio. I don't have a fancy wireless system any more (used to have a top range Senneiser unit I nicked from my father) but have been using the headphone out of my pod into a long lead with an in line volume control. Very simple and sounds fantastic, though might not be very good if you move about a lot, which I don't!!

Cheers
ped

[Happy Jack]

I'm nearly there with my own set-up.

I can run a 'headphones out' from my Eden WTX-260 without cutting the signal to the cab(s). I can also use my PJB Bass Buddy as a pre-amp and take a 'headphones out' line from there.

I use ER-15 plugs with the Sennheiser inserts for IEM. I only use one on stage, so my right ear hears only my bass while my left ear hears the whole band.

The missing bit as far as I'm concerned is an IEM set-up for use at jam sessions and similar, where I'm not using my own rig. That accounts for my earlier posts on this thread.

[ped]

Sounds great - I tried the single ear approach but found it a bit disorientating, so prefer non-cancelling 'fones for a fuller sound.

With the PJB I guess you could use that with other rigs by having a splitter box going from the bass to the rig and from the bass to the PJB for personal monitoring?

ped

[tayste_2000]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='232723' date='Jul 4 2008, 02:42 PM']I use ER-15 plugs with the Sennheiser inserts for IEM. I only use one on stage, so my right ear hears only my bass while my left ear hears the whole band.[/quote]

This is reported to damage your hearing only using 1 IEM.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='ped' post='232724' date='Jul 4 2008, 02:49 PM']With the PJB I guess you could use that with other rigs by having a splitter box going from the bass to the rig and from the bass to the PJB for personal monitoring?[/quote]

Technically that's perfectly possible, but the Bass Buddy is just too big to be worn unobtrusively on a belt or just slung in a pocket. Additionally, you'd need to make use of sockets at both front and back of the unit.

The only way to do this at, say, a jam session would be to carry it up on stage, put the Bass Buddy onto the backline, and plug together. It would all take too long, attract too much attention, and quite possibly p*** off the House Band bassist whose rig you're messing with.

Edited July 8, 2008 by Happy Jack

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='tayste_2000' post='232736' date='Jul 4 2008, 03:02 PM']This is reported to damage your hearing only using 1 IEM.[/quote]

I can understand that for home practice, where one ear is dealing with loads of volume while the other isn't, but is also true for on-stage situations?

Bear in mind that I balance the IEM volume with the unblocked volume reaching the other ear (not much point otherwise!) so both ears are dealing with a similar input level. Think of it as [i]extreme stereo separation[/i].

Seriously, do you have any links on this that I could follow?

[coasterbass]

Quote from (non-medical) sources:

"Also, there’s the tendency of performers to use only one ear bud.” (Ear bud is a term often used for the piece of the monitoring system that is placed in the ear.)

Karl Cartwright, who works in new product development at Westone Labs, a Colorado Springs, Colorado-based manufacturer of a wide range of hearing protection and in-ear monitoring systems says, “People using one ear bud tend to run that monitor at a higher volume.” He adds those who wear a monitor in each ear usually run them at 6 dB less than those who wear just one. For those who continue to use just one in-ear monitor, Cartwright recommends alternating ears every few services or performances.

“There is an industry misconception that in-ear monitors, like earplugs, are hearing protectors,” says Michael Santucci, president of Sensaphonics Hearing Conservation, Inc. a manufacturer of ear protection, in-ear monitoring and telecommunications equipment based in Chicago. “Unlike earplugs, in-ear monitors are capable of damaging hearing as easily as a floor monitor. They can be used as a tool for hearing preservation only if used properly.”

I can understand the argument. I'd also find it a bit disorientating just using one IEM... a bit like when you catch the FOH full blast in one ear and it throws your centre of gravity for a second.

[martinbass7750]

Hi All,

Anyone used the Shure PSM200?

It comes with SCL2 phones.

I've found it for just under £350 delivered, and would appreciate anyone's personal experiences of it.

Cheers

Martin

[Dood]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='196253' date='May 10 2008, 10:24 PM']I use the Headphones output on my Eden for in-ear monitoring of my own bass.

Using someone else's backline today, I found myself using an Ampeg SVT something-or-other, with what few sockets there were on the back of the amp rather than the front.

I found (by feel) two sockets which would drive my ear-piece, but each of them also cut off the signal to the cab!

So ... no in-ear monitoring then.

Was I missing something? Does anyone else use in-ear monitoring? Is this a common problem, or are Ampeg SVT's badly-designed?[/quote]


Hey Jack!

Hope you are well!

If you weren't looing at what you were doing, you probably stuck your in-ears into the return or AMP IN sockets on the back of the ampeg, both of which are likely to cut the signal to the power amp. (No sound to the speakers) You may, by design still get a signal to your In Ears in some cases.

The moral of the story wopuld be to look at what you were doing.he he he!!! What would have happened if the amp had the same type of jack socket for it's speaker output? A fried In-Ear system and a big repair bill!

I am assuming that your In-ear system is a powered system and not just a set of earphones? (ie now external amp) - You could try the following outputs on an Amp if they are available..

Tuner Out - likely to give you the same signal as coming into the front of the amp with NO eq or volume control from the amp.

Send fx - The signal is in most cases likely to be post gain and EQ, so pretty much all the controls except the master volume will have an effect on what you hear in you lug oles.. also out through the cab too.(My MarkBass features a pre EQ effects loop, so the only control that effects the send signal, is the gain control.. so.. some amps are different!)

Direct out / Line Out / DI .. this output is likely to be post effects, gain and EQ, but pre master volume.. so the volume control on the amp is unlikely to affect the in-ear signal.

Sometimes there is a 'recording out' which is the same as the line out. Some guitar amps use a filtered 'speaker simulator' on such an output, however it's less likely to find such a sim on a bass amp.

If an amp has two inputs, *sometimes* the inputs are connected passively, so you could in theory use one of the inputs as an output. This tends not to be the case with dedicated dual channel amps, but the likes of old valve amps with Hi and Low sensitivity inputs you could get the basses signal here.

Finally, sockets you cant really use!

Line In, Effects Return, Amp in, Speaker output!!! footswitch (you may laugh, but if you were feeling for a socket, 9/10 they are a 1/4" sockets too) Anyway, you get the idea!


disclaimer- I wrote this really quickly!

[Happy Jack]

Thanks Dood. I'm more or less sorted for my own kit/rig, especially when playing through my Eden head.

I'm still looking for a way to walk on-stage at a jam with my IEM already in-ear, and just a single connection (the lead to the house bassist's amp) to be made.

Bear in mind that I'll never know until I get to the jam what amp/combo is going to be on stage, and I won't know until I reach the amp what sockets there will be, or where to find them.

If I could find something with the functionality of the Bass Buddy, but in a package about a quarter of the size ...

[Bigwan]

OK guys I'm starting to gather all the components for an in ear monitoring system (wired). I'm going to run:

[attachment=11714:mon.JPG]

My problem is what to use as a brickwall limiter to save what little hearing I still have from spikes in the mix? Would something cheap and simple like a behringer bass limiter pedal do the job in the meantime until I find something more suitable?

The reason I want to mix myself into the monitor mix again is that I might have to share the mix with someone else (only 3 monitor mix outputs from the desk), so I'd like the option to add more of myself as I see fit. Also like that I can add an ambient mic into the personal mixer too (I'll be the only one using in-ears in the band).

Any thoughts?

Edited August 7, 2008 by Bigwan

[coasterbass]

Interesting plan.
My concern would be that the limiter won't protect you from the ambient mic.
If you have vocal mics in the main mix then wouldn't these function as 'ambient' mics anyway?

[Bigwan]

[quote name='coasterbass' post='257804' date='Aug 8 2008, 09:20 AM']Interesting plan.
My concern would be that the limiter won't protect you from the ambient mic.
If you have vocal mics in the main mix then wouldn't these function as 'ambient' mics anyway?[/quote]

Possibly. Depends on the mic pickup pattern I suppose. The ambient mic was just an afterthought though.

[WalMan]

[quote name='ped' post='200223' date='May 16 2008, 10:25 AM']We should start an IEM club...

Why do people bother with rigs on stage, eh? ;0)[/quote]
I didn't for some time, just the BOD straight to the PA & IEM's, but the drummer & guitarist who steadfastly refuse to use IEMs moaned that even with the bass in their monitors they were not getting the same level or feel. So I got the CMD121H combo to shift some air on stage. That learned 'em

I love my IEMs with the system we use because I have complete control over my personal monitor mix.

[quote]OK guys I'm starting to gather all the components for an in ear monitoring system (wired). I'm going to run:
My problem is what to use as a brickwall limiter to save what little hearing I still have from spikes in the mix? Would something cheap and simple like a behringer bass limiter pedal do the job in the meantime until I find something more suitable?

The reason I want to mix myself into the monitor mix again is that I might have to share the mix with someone else (only 3 monitor mix outputs from the desk), so I'd like the option to add more of myself as I see fit. Also like that I can add an ambient mic into the personal mixer too (I'll be the only one using in-ears in the band).

Any thoughts?[/quote]

When I first started with the IEMs our sound guy hadn't bought the Aviom kit and I ended up getting a Yamaha MG8/2fx mixer and sending the model out of my BOD xt Pro to the desk and the DI out to the mixer. I then had a monitor feed back from the desk with my b vox, a bit of guitar & lead vox and more importantly kick & snare. Never bothered with a limiter on the monitor feed. If the worst comes to the worst you can always take one plug out. IEM's are great when they work, but with the noise cancelling type of plugs (and you really need them, and a good set as well to be able to hear the bass) it can get a bit lonely in there leaving you a tad removed from the crowd.

That sort of worked OK as I had some control, but as the evening progressed I had to signal the sound guy for changes to the monitor feed. The Aviom gear has done away with all of that, but is horribly expensive - lucky our sound guy did the investment!!!

Edited August 9, 2008 by WalMan

[Kiwi]

I'm considering the IEM option and had a wee chat with my local audiologist who is just around the corner from my office. They can take the molds for me to get a set of custom fitted earphones but I don't know what happens after I have the molds.

I remember we had some discussion about this on Bassworld but I can't remember the process. Do I send the molds away to a specialist manufacturer? What do they produce? A set of earphones or a set of plugs that can take ear phones? Do I need a special set of earphones designed for IEM?

[OldGit]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='391754' date='Jan 26 2009, 01:55 PM']I'm considering the IEM option and had a wee chat with my local audiologist who is just around the corner from my office. They can take the molds for me to get a set of custom fitted earphones but I don't know what happens after I have the molds.

I remember we had some discussion about this on Bassworld but I can't remember the process. Do I send the molds away to a specialist manufacturer? What do they produce? A set of earphones or a set of plugs that can take ear phones? Do I need a special set of earphones designed for IEM?[/quote]


Will you be wearing the headgear in your Avatar, Zaphod?

[crez5150]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='391754' date='Jan 26 2009, 01:55 PM']I'm considering the IEM option and had a wee chat with my local audiologist who is just around the corner from my office. They can take the molds for me to get a set of custom fitted earphones but I don't know what happens after I have the molds.

I remember we had some discussion about this on Bassworld but I can't remember the process. Do I send the molds away to a specialist manufacturer? What do they produce? A set of earphones or a set of plugs that can take ear phones? Do I need a special set of earphones designed for IEM?[/quote]

You really want to speak with these guys about the moulds and what options are available on the drivers - [url="http://www.handheldaudio.co.uk/pages/catalog.asp?divitype=t&tp_id=82&pic=../images/ear_77x22.gif&root_name=Custom"]HandHeld Audio[/url]

We use these guys all the time and they really know what options are best...... speak to Nick there.

[obbm]

Have a browse through [url="http://www.hearingprotection.co.uk/index.php"]ACS's Site[/url]. They have several options and they make pretty much all of the in-ear monitors for people such as Handheld, etc.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='OldGit' post='391760' date='Jan 26 2009, 01:57 PM']Will you be wearing the headgear in your Avatar, Zaphod?
[/quote]
Only if we do gigs in Cardiff.

Thanks for your help OBBM and Crez, that info was just the ticket. Have either of you used IEM live? Did you find your ability to lock in with the drummer was affected in any way without a seismic thump for them to feel?