lurksalot Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 Esteemed followers of the recording sections of the forum . May I pay homage to the results I hear that come from your expertise , but I cannot grasp the process. I see comments on different options and have just downloaded Reaper , I have tried audacity , cubase LE and a couple of others I am sure , BUT , they all seem so counter intuitive , is it me , am I losing it ? I grasped photoshop , spreadsheets , word , even powerpoint but all these DAW jobbies just do my head in . I just seem to hit a hurdle every step , I even saw a post that said to copy and paste in Reaper was a piece of p155 , but that appears to be beyond me. I really want to get into this as it focuses the technique somewhat and while I can use it as a practice aid quite well , as soon as I try to get past the very basics I am lost . This is just a rant I suppose , as no-one will have enough info to help me , even the reaper wiki leaves me cold , I just think a level of numptie is probably a painfully hard upward learning curve , but I just can't see the logic so far , IYSWIM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skol303 Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Hey Lurks. Don't give up just yet mate! All music-making software has a fairly steep learning curve the first time you try using… but it does get a lot easier fairly quickly. You just need to persevere past the initial mind-bogglingness of it all My advice: 1. Grab a beverage of your choice and try watching some 'beginners' [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAUwDhtEono"]YouTube tutorials[/url] (there are plenty available for just about any software you choose). They're a lot easier to follow than wiki pages and instruction manuals. 2. Don't try doing everything at once. Work out the very basics… such as how to import and arrange audio files; how to plug in an instrument and record… before delving deeper. You probably won't use half of the buttons and functions you see on screen at first, so don't bother learning about them until you need them (tutorials will guide you on what's important at first). 3. Get help from a mate who knows their way around the software. Even just an hour can make all the difference. If you have a Mac (or an iPad) check out [url="http://www.apple.com/ilife/garageband/"]GarageBand[/url] which is very easy to use and a great place to start out. I'm sure there are PC equivalents too - maybe someone else here can offer some pointers. …and feel free to ask here! Plenty of helpful folk about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBollock Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 The get a mate to help suggestion is a really good one. I am in the same position as Lurksalot and would love to have someone to sit with for a while just to get me familiar and more confident with the software, I really feel it would help. Alas, I know no one and I find myself getting frustrated and giving up too easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Also worth considering that a daws workflow just may not suit you. Personally even as an experienced user reaper feels like an obstacle course. Its down to you as much as the software. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockfordStone Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 don't give up easily, took me a couple of years to fully understand cubase enough to work it easily. the thing to remember is that largely all DAWs function in the same way, but you have to stick with one and grasp its concepts. ive been using reason over the weekend and believe it to be a good easy one to start with. just stick at it, it will all of a sudden click and all make sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skol303 Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 [quote name='RockfordStone' timestamp='1353315114' post='1873416']...ive been using reason over the weekend and believe it to be a good easy one to start with.[/quote] Yeah I use Reason almost exclusively. Love it. I used Cubase for a little while before that and going back further I used to use tracker software. Ended up taking a ten year break from music and when I came back I opted for Reason. It just suits my workflow perfectly and I got to grips with it very quickly, which was a big draw for me at the time. Every music software offers a demo version you can test out, so best advice is to try them all and pick which is right for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDaddy Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 [quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1353281838' post='1873309'] Esteemed followers of the recording sections of the forum . May I pay homage to the results I hear that come from your expertise , but I cannot grasp the process. I see comments on different options and have just downloaded Reaper , I have tried audacity , cubase LE and a couple of others I am sure , BUT , they all seem so counter intuitive , is it me , am I losing it ? I grasped photoshop , spreadsheets , word , even powerpoint but all these DAW jobbies just do my head in . I just seem to hit a hurdle every step , I even saw a post that said to copy and paste in Reaper was a piece of p155 , but that appears to be beyond me. I really want to get into this as it focuses the technique somewhat and while I can use it as a practice aid quite well , as soon as I try to get past the very basics I am lost . This is just a rant I suppose , as no-one will have enough info to help me , even the reaper wiki leaves me cold , I just think a level of numptie is probably a painfully hard upward learning curve , but I just can't see the logic so far , IYSWIM [/quote] +1 fellow numpty here! The lies they tell - "the software is intuitive", "the easy to use use interface", bollox not for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 There is some reasonably hefty learning curve in all DAWs when you learn the first one. However once you've learnt one they are all pretty similar... Download the Reaper manual, its an excellent resource. Try no tto let yourself be overwhelmed by the sheer size of it though. Tackle one subject at a time, starting at the beginning. It may take you a couple o fweeks, but the way to look at it is that you are learning a lot about how all DAWs work, and the mindset required to use them properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 (edited) [quote name='MacDaddy' timestamp='1353322521' post='1873513'] +1 fellow numpty here! The lies they tell - "the software is intuitive", "the easy to use use interface", bollox not for me! [/quote] No, the software is intuitive, and the interface is easy to use. But in order for it to be intuitive and easy to use you have to have some background understanding of the mindset and the way these things got where they did. There is no such thing as an intuitive computer user interface without that background understanding of what is what, and how it may be expected to behave, any more than there is an intuitive interface for driving a car. Yet once you learn how to drive one car you can drive almost any car. Same with any really complicated piece of software that you have no background knowledge of. Just take it a step at a time and read the manual or find some tutorials. They really arent that hard to follow, and once you have learnt something you will be on the way to using the tools properly and confidently in no time. Edited November 19, 2012 by 51m0n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockfordStone Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 [quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1353320378' post='1873486'] Yeah I use Reason almost exclusively. Love it. I used Cubase for a little while before that and going back further I used to use tracker software. Ended up taking a ten year break from music and when I came back I opted for Reason. It just suits my workflow perfectly and I got to grips with it very quickly, which was a big draw for me at the time. Every music software offers a demo version you can test out, so best advice is to try them all and pick which is right for you. [/quote] sorry i mean reaper, not sure why i said reason... and + 1 for the reaper manual, having played with it over the weekend, the manual is actually very handy and easy to grasp. ive been very impressed with reaper, i think i will be purchasing a full license over the next couple of weeks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 The word is ,don't fear the reaper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lurksalot Posted November 19, 2012 Author Share Posted November 19, 2012 Cheers all , KB and MacD , I feel your pain ( though hopefully not ALL yours KB !! ) Thanks for the words of encouragement to everyone , I will study the manual and see if that helps , some of the hassle I get is stupid things like , the output device keeps changing from the usb to speakers , and daft things like that so I never know if I am pressing the wrong button, the software is crook , or the computer just hates me. but this keeps happening with lots of daft little pesky things . I will report on my progress , I think that you tube tutorial might be a start , I learnt to play a couple songs on the piano like that Thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBollock Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 My biggest problem is that I don't really know what I the software to do. I did record a very simple tune with just Drum, Guitar and Bass tracks, just to see if I could. I posted a link to it on BassChat and someone asked if I had set all the tracks down the centre, with no stereo movement. Which is exactly what I had done to most of it, I didn't know I was supposed to do anything different. Some people suggested that some instruments should go down the middle but others should be moved to one side or the other to make space for others, which makes sense, but when I tried it the result was horrible. And trying to find information on those kind of basic things, things people assume everyone trying to record must already know, proved difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) KB, you are really asking "How do I mix a song". Its a huge topic. The goal is to cause the listener to engage emotionally in the result. Don't be tempted to think that is a trite or simplistic answer, it isn't I am deadly serious. As simple as that sounds it is one of the hardest things to do, especially if you have no grounding in the subject at all yet. So how do you go about doing this? You have to learn to listen from the perspective of a punter, whilst also listening like an analytical machine, at different times one or other view point is more imoprtant. In most songs the lead vocal is 'the song' from the point of view of the punter, and to connect with it the emotional content must pour out (even if ihat content is no more than "let's dance" the empotional impact must compel the listener to do just that). We can assume that that lead vocal must be front and centre of the soundstage then, its what we want the listener to focus on where ever they are standing in the stereo field. Apart from that music generally has a pulse, contemporary music almost always does, and that pulse is what causes peopple to move, and getting them to move is a very short step away from getting an emotional connection, so the key rhythmic foundations also need to be in the center of the soundstage. Like anything a mix is only as good as its fundamental foundations. The kick, snare and bass must be (in a contemporary mix) front and center. In a more vintage mix from the 60's stereo was first applied as literally a switch with either left right or centre, and thats why you sometimes hear old tracks, or tracks that want to sound old (Lenny Kravitz) having a different somewhat odd pan(orama), or stereo spread, with (say) drums hard left, bass and guitar hard right and vox dead centre. Unless you are after the goofy old vintage feel just avoid this, treat it as a rule that should be stuck to unless ther are utterly compelling reasons not to. We now get into a bit more of a technical area. That sound stage with two speakers generating faux stereo actually really has only three definite and fixed positions and they are Left, Right and Centre. Yes you can pan by graduations of this, but whenever you do the exact source of the panned instrument will be murky at best. This is so imortant that a very large number of major league mix engineers literally only ever pan LCR (and that style is so prevalent that it is called LCR mixing). Bearing in mind that they may well be doing a lot of tricks to make this jar less (such as panning the reverb or delay ambience from anything panned left over to the right and vice versa) it doesnt change the fact that in their mixes there is no 'just a bit more to the right', it's all the way to the rigth or left or dead centre. So why pan at all? Seperation.Seperation.Seperation..... In order to have a mix be emotive its important that it has clarity, and this is achieved by creating space for the components of the mix, and one important way to do that is panning. Anything that isnt in the holy trinity of the foundation (bass kick snare) or the lead vocal(s) needs to be moved out of the way (panned). Personally I dont stick to LCR rigidly, there are elements of any mix that I like to slip into thos elesser defined areas off centre or off hard panned (hi-hats for one, esp with other percussion to balance against them). But I do always pan anything that can compete with the vocal out of centre. Dont worry about a mix not balancing in the stereo field sometimes either, that is cool too. It can be part of the payoff of getting to the chorus for everything to be balanced then where it wasnt just before. Guitars, pan hard, double track (not more usually) and maybe send any ambience returns to the opposite side for a bigger sense of space. Try it, it sounds like every big rock mix in the last 15 to 20 years, because it works really really well. Backing vox need to be a little bit ethereal, so I like them not hard panned completely, but very nearly, then the reverb/eq/delay on them needs to place them further back behind the lead. Oh, EQ! See my recent blog on using it 'properly'. EQ is used for a couple of things. Firstly, when you bunch a load of instrumetns up together , left right or centre, they are going to competefor frequency. EQ is used to cut out holes in one instrument for another instrument to occupy. Done right you cant tell it has been done at all but suddenly you can hear the relevant parts of all the instruments involved. Win! It also helps place things front to back in the mix, closer sources are brighter, further away sources are darker, a gentle wide roll off of up to 20dB at 20KHz can really give a sense that BVs are behind the lead for instance. Then there is the balance itself, which is a matter of taste firtst, what 'feels' right to you, is right. As long as you are in a palce where what you hear you can trust so decent acoustics are mroe important than hugely expensive speakers. Learn your monitors, and you can trust your ears. Proper use of comrpession can help with some asects of the mix balance, not just levelling but shaping the envelope of the sound, you can make things easier to hear by electing which things get their transiet mroe prominent than others, and which things get their sustain more obvious, balancing intime as well as frequncy and over all level, and pan. If you do it all 'right' it sounds killer, if you aren;t used to it or you are learning a bit at a time it can sound odd in the first instance. Time and lots of proactice and questions, and reading will get you there. Watching someone who really knows their beans mix will get you there a lot quicker IME! I would really recommend [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/ZEN-Art-Mixing-Mixerman/dp/1423491505"]Zen and the Art of Mixing[/url] as a superb book on the art of mixing a song well. Its well written and will provide you with insight after insight into why you should do what to help you achieve a great mix. Edited November 20, 2012 by 51m0n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lurksalot Posted November 20, 2012 Author Share Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) KB you are miles further up the path than I am . 51m0n , Quality post, thanks millions, though it is probably waaaay past my expertise at the moment . Ed to add I have been through a few You Tube tutorials , but I find it very frustrating that a) even for beginners they assume you know stuff and use techy words lots of stuff they try do doesnt work for them first time so they do it again Edited November 20, 2012 by lurksalot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elvis Valentine Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 The best thing that i ever did in terms of learning how to use a DAW was watching my friends use their respective DAW's. First it was cubase and then pro tools for me, if you cant do that i think probably the next best thing is to check out tutorials on youtube and just experiment. I am a million miles from being an expert though but i can track a band if i have to.lol But then that becomes a whole other issue or should i say series of issues, mic placement, acoustics yada yada....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 [quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1353428051' post='1874845'] KB you are miles further up the path than I am . 51m0n , Quality post, thanks millions, though it is probably waaaay past my expertise at the moment . Ed to add I have been through a few You Tube tutorials , but I find it very frustrating that a) even for beginners they assume you know stuff and use techy words lots of stuff they try do doesnt work for them first time so they do it again [/quote] This needs to be open in your browser at all times... http://www.soundonsound.com/information/Glossary.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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