DI-ing my bass head- mixed responses

[MiltyG565]

alright, so not exactly mixed responses. But while recording, should i DI my bass head, then take the signal from the DI out of my bass head through a DI box, or straight into the interface? I don't have a DI box yet, but what i am getting from most people is just to plug my bass straight in to a DI box, to which a put a big flat no to generally, because i like the sound of my amp, and it gives good control of tone shaping and volume and gain, so i would rather run my signal through it first. I know it is asking for more problems, but i have had no trouble before with buzzing or anything like that before on the track (apart from clicking, which i think was my amp just giving up). the only reason why i am asking is because my bass sounds kinda phasey, and can be very unclear when recorded. obviously i need to fix that before recording.

so should it look like this-

Bass>Amp>DI box>Interface>Computer.

or this.

Bass>Amp>Interface>Computer.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Bankai]

The second one. There's no need to di a di.

Providing the output on the amp head you're using is a DI / Balanced Output and not just a jack connection, then it's fine on it's own.

[BigRedX]

Are you sure the sound is just the amp and not the amp and speaker combination?

When I'm recording, my minimum track usage for bass is mic on the best sounding speaker and DI direct from the bass. That way I'm recording the sound that I think will work for the track at this point in the production and the raw bass sound for re-amping should the direction the track goes during mixing require a different bass sound to the original.

Given enough tracks/inputs I might go for a DI from the amp and a room mic as well.

[paul_5]

Personally I'd go for DI and mic. I tend to use the DI out on my DHA VT1 pre effects. I mic the cab for FX (fuzz,distortion always sounds better coming out of a speaker than DI'ed to my ears). You might need to experiment with mic positions so that you don't run into phase issues/comb filtering though.


But as always, if it sounds right, it [i]is[/i] right.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1353755147' post='1878096']
Personally I'd go for DI and mic. I tend to use the DI out on my DHA VT1 pre effects. I mic the cab for FX (fuzz,distortion always sounds better coming out of a speaker than DI'ed to my ears). You might need to experiment with mic positions so that you don't run into phase issues/comb filtering though.
[/quote]

With a decent DAW, your probably best off positioning the mic where is sounds best and then moving the DI audio track on the timeline to compensate for any phase issues.

[MiltyG565]

I'm not micing a cab. just DI.

[BigRedX]

It would probably help to know what amp and what audio interface you are using. And what the recording you are doing is for - song demos and full band recordings?

Are you not wanting to mic the cab because of noise concerns or because you don't have a suitable mic? I think you'll be surprised by how much the cab affects the sound of your bass, so you'll need to compensate for it on mix down which will mean either a very good EQ plugin or a cab simulator - in which case I'd be tempted to record the bass direct and do amp and cab sim "in the box".

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1353851615' post='1878935']
It would probably help to know what amp and what audio interface you are using. And what the recording you are doing is for - song demos and full band recordings?

Are you not wanting to mic the cab because of noise concerns or because you don't have a suitable mic? I think you'll be surprised by how much the cab affects the sound of your bass, so you'll need to compensate for it on mix down which will mean either a very good EQ plugin or a cab simulator - in which case I'd be tempted to record the bass direct and do amp and cab sim "in the box".
[/quote]

I'm using my ash down ABM 400 rack head, DIed to an ESI ESU22 sound card/audio interface. link- [url="http://www.esi-audio.com/products/esu22/"]http://www.esi-audio.com/products/esu22/[/url]

I am just recording bass and maybe some guitar through it. I'm not micing the cab because i don't have a brilliant cab, so there is no point micing it.

[BigRedX]

Looking at that interface you should be able to either plug the bass directly into the instrument input (the one with the guitar icon) or use an XLR lead to connect the DI socket of the amp to the mic input on the interface. Personally I'd use both if you can split the bass signal so you can send it to the amp and the interface simultaneously.

I would question your reluctance to use a mic. Surely the sound from your amp that you like is as a result of hearing it from your cab? I think you'll be surprised by how different the DI from the amp sounds without the influence of the cab.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1353855278' post='1878984']
Looking at that interface you should be able to either plug the bass directly into the instrument input (the one with the guitar icon) or use an XLR lead to connect the DI socket of the amp to the mic input on the interface. Personally I'd use both if you can split the bass signal so you can send it to the amp and the interface simultaneously.

I would question your reluctance to use a mic. Surely the sound from your amp that you like is as a result of hearing it from your cab? I think you'll be surprised by how different the DI from the amp sounds without the influence of the cab.
[/quote]

well, micing it requires a lot of equipment that i don't have, and don't have the money to be to be quite frank. and i promise you, there is no point micing my bass cab. I was recording from the DI out on my bass to the XLR connection on the interface. some had said go through a DI box, as it will improve the signal, some said just plug straight in to a DI box and cut out the amp, some said plug straight in to the interface. I like the sound of my amp, and the amount of room it leaves for sound level control and tone control, so i would rather keep it in the loop.

[pendingrequests]

You shouldn't be pluggin straight into the interface as the tone will be horrible.

If what you're saying is that your amp as a DI on it, just use it.

I've been in plenty of situations where this has occurred, with DI's on a bass amp or just a standard DI via my Boss EQ pedal and the bass sounds perfectly fine.

Tbh, I once recorded with a full ampeg rig that was mic'd in about 3 places it sounded horrible. DI for me personally sounds great.

You could spend weeks, months even looking at how to record bass amps with mics/no mics etc.

Just record, play with the DAW's EQ or bass emulators and see what you get.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='pendingrequests' timestamp='1353859282' post='1879048']
You shouldn't be pluggin straight into the interface as the tone will be horrible.

If what you're saying is that your amp as a DI on it, just use it.

I've been in plenty of situations where this has occurred, with DI's on a bass amp or just a standard DI via my Boss EQ pedal and the bass sounds perfectly fine.

Tbh, I once recorded with a full ampeg rig that was mic'd in about 3 places it sounded horrible. DI for me personally sounds great.

You could spend weeks, months even looking at how to record bass amps with mics/no mics etc.

Just record, play with the DAW's EQ or bass emulators and see what you get.
[/quote]

FFS, had a reply written out, but it didn't send.

Anyway, cheers for the info man. I'm assuming you are in some local band? Do you know of any good bass amp techs around these parts? need somebody very reliable and competent, and the closer to ballymena the better

[pendingrequests]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1353866537' post='1879140']
FFS, had a reply written out, but it didn't send.

Anyway, cheers for the info man. I'm assuming you are in some local band? Do you know of any good bass amp techs around these parts? need somebody very reliable and competent, and the closer to ballymena the better
[/quote]

Play in a quite few man yeh.

I don't unfortunately, so if you find one tell me!

The best people I would suggest is the guys at Belfast Guitar Centre or Bairds if you talk to Darren.

Hard finding the right person in N.Ireland to repair your gear.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='pendingrequests' timestamp='1353868527' post='1879169']
Play in a quite few man yeh.

I don't unfortunately, so if you find one tell me!

The best people I would suggest is the guys at Belfast Guitar Centre or Bairds if you talk to Darren.

Hard finding the right person in N.Ireland to repair your gear.
[/quote]

Yeah, i know. I'm friends with a guy in ballymena who i would trust with every bit of gear i have (not that it comes to a considerable amount in value). I would take it to him, but he only does it part time and is turning away work, and he said the most he could do for me is take a quick look, and that could even be over a week away. I don't really trust music shops... I like to talk to the person actually fixing my stuff and tell them whats wrong, instead of having a third party.

[51m0n]

There is nothing wrong with a straight DI:-

Bass -> D.I -> mixer/interface.

In fact if you have the 'right DI' it will sound absolutely stella.

If you need some amp based dirt, rather than pedal based then you will absolutely have to mic the cab. Why? Because a cab, especially a cab designed for dirt (ie a sealed no tweeter type affair like an Ampeg 810) is a huge filter on the output. If you DI the sound of the amp (there are DI's that can handle speaker level output, but most cant - rtfm!) the result will include a huge amount of rather horrid top end fizzy noise, which you will have to deal with. The cab does exactly that for you.

If you want to mix DI and mic'ed then phase is a huge issue, simply moving the sound files time aligns them, but doesnt necessarily phase align them (complex subject, phase is dependant on frequency etc etc). If you are going to timealing them, move the mic track to match the DI, it will usually sound better that way round.

In order to get phase right in the first place run some sound through the amp (nice bit of pink noise will do), watching the master level move the mic until you get the highest output. Thats about as cientific as you will get with the gear you have.

In your position use the DI for the bottom end and the mic for the mid range grwol. Use any cheap mic you can get your hands on, positioning is the key to a great reault. Red5Audio do a great cheap kick drum mic (c £35) that will do fine on bass in a pinch....

[pendingrequests]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1353869417' post='1879182']
I don't really trust music shops... I like to talk to the person actually fixing my stuff and tell them whats wrong, instead of having a third party.
[/quote]

Well the guys in Belfast Guitar Centre and Bairds always repair in house and Matchetts possibly. There's only 3 guys in Belfast Guitar Centre, so anytime you call in, just talk to the guy you were dealing with. Simple .

I think it's Jon in there (Canadian guy) who knows a good amount of bass stuff.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1353928802' post='1879731']
If you want to mix DI and mic'ed then phase is a huge issue, simply moving the sound files time aligns them, but doesnt necessarily phase align them (complex subject, phase is dependant on frequency etc etc). If you are going to timealing them, move the mic track to match the DI, it will usually sound better that way round.
[/quote]

Sorry to go slightly off topic but can you explain why moving one of the audio tracks isn't the same as moving the microphone placement when it comes to phase alignment. AFAICS moving the mic changes the time at which the sound reaches it. Surely nudging the mic track forward by a few samples achieves the same thing?

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1353928802' post='1879731']
There is nothing wrong with a straight DI:-

Bass -> D.I -> mixer/interface.

In fact if you have the 'right DI' it will sound absolutely stella.

If you need some amp based dirt, rather than pedal based then you will absolutely have to mic the cab. Why? Because a cab, especially a cab designed for dirt (ie a sealed no tweeter type affair like an Ampeg 810) is a huge filter on the output. If you DI the sound of the amp (there are DI's that can handle speaker level output, but most cant - rtfm!) the result will include a huge amount of rather horrid top end fizzy noise, which you will have to deal with. The cab does exactly that for you.

If you want to mix DI and mic'ed then phase is a huge issue, simply moving the sound files time aligns them, but doesnt necessarily phase align them (complex subject, phase is dependant on frequency etc etc). If you are going to timealing them, move the mic track to match the DI, it will usually sound better that way round.

In order to get phase right in the first place run some sound through the amp (nice bit of pink noise will do), watching the master level move the mic until you get the highest output. Thats about as cientific as you will get with the gear you have.

In your position use the DI for the bottom end and the mic for the mid range grwol. Use any cheap mic you can get your hands on, positioning is the key to a great reault. Red5Audio do a great cheap kick drum mic (c £35) that will do fine on bass in a pinch....
[/quote]

Seriously man, i can not afford the extra gear. My cab is really not worth micing, and i have not got the expertise, or the equipment to go to such great lengths. I'm on sick leave from work, and will be for a while, so buying stuff is absolutely out of the question at the minute. I want to record, i want to use the DI out on my bass head, i want it to sound good.


[quote name='pendingrequests' timestamp='1353929726' post='1879754']
Well the guys in Belfast Guitar Centre and Bairds always repair in house and Matchetts possibly. There's only 3 guys in Belfast Guitar Centre, so anytime you call in, just talk to the guy you were dealing with. Simple .

I think it's Jon in there (Canadian guy) who knows a good amount of bass stuff.
[/quote]

Cheers, i'll give them a call during the week

[51m0n]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1353937853' post='1879917']
Seriously man, i can not afford the extra gear. My cab is really not worth micing, and i have not got the expertise, or the equipment to go to such great lengths. I'm on sick leave from work, and will be for a while, so buying stuff is absolutely out of the question at the minute. I want to record, i want to use the DI out on my bass head, i want it to sound good.


Cheers, i'll give them a call during the week
[/quote]


In thatcase by all means DI from the amp.

Then to get the cab sound back use a decent free Cab simulator (Le Poulin's LeCab2 is great! Google it) to do the 'micing' for you.

[51m0n]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1353933797' post='1879824']
Sorry to go slightly off topic but can you explain why moving one of the audio tracks isn't the same as moving the microphone placement when it comes to phase alignment. AFAICS moving the mic changes the time at which the sound reaches it. Surely nudging the mic track forward by a few samples achieves the same thing?
[/quote]

Its not altogether obvious is it

If the two sources were identical, except for a delay then time aligning would work exactly as you expect.

Thing is they are radically different sources because of the radically different chains:-

1) the DI from the amp is the output of the amp's preamp to the interface via a DI box (transformer at the very least if its passive), then into the mic-pre and on to the DAC

2) the input from the mic is that signal after it has gone through a power amp, a speaker cab ( a massive filter if ever theere were one) , across air, hitting another transducer (the mic), through another set of electronics (the mic-pre) before getting to the ADC.

Ther two signals are very very different, they have different frequncy spectrums, different envelopes, everything that there is about the two sources are differetn except the thing that generated the initial sound.

How can you possbly time align two sounds with different envelopes anyway? WHat do you line up, the beggining of the attack, or the end of the transient, or the sustain phase? They can (will) all be different now.

As soon as you move one against the other the affect is to filter them where the frequencies add up or subtract from each other at that point in time. But the two signals are now different in the time domain (due to all the filtering of the speaker not being accurate, the mic no tbeing accurate, the air is effectively a filter iun this case etc etc) so you can only fix them in one place

Phase alignment can help you get a good overall best guess across all the frequencies - effectively using the two signals to make a third that is the best combination, time alignment can take the two signals and make them start at exactly the same time, which isnt necessarily the best sounding result either.

Does that help at all?