Yet another band thread..Gig drama.

[jonsmith]

Best 'tone' I've ever heard from any guitarist I've ever worked with comes from this wonderful little thing:

[url="http://www.cornfordamps.com/hurricane.htm"]http://www.cornfordamps.com/hurricane.htm[/url]

It provides sufficient (but manageable) on stage volume to deal with a loud drummer & a loud kit, and I can only imagine how good it would sound if the guitarist actually changed his strings more than once a decade.

Many moons ago, I was complaining to a certain guitarist about how massively loud his on-stage sound was compared to everything else in the band. He persisted with the 'tone' argument until he heard a recording taken straight from the desk of a gig we'd done at a fairly large venue. This recording featured almost no guitar at all as his on stage sound was so blisteringly loud that there was no point in running it through the PA. An audience recording of the same gig verified this, but also that there was no way of controlling how he was presented FOH, meaning it didn't always sound coherent. Shortly afterwards, an equipment change followed and sensible on-stage volumes prevailed.

I'm assuming that if all the instruments are running through the PA, then there is reasonable monitoring too. Then it's easy to give the guitarist plenty of himself in his monitor and he can carry on imagining his parts are vastly more important than anyone else's, while out front the sound guy can give you a decent mix. Then everyone's happy.

[pendingrequests]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1353866224' post='1879136']
I have invested plenty but would still expect to be told not to use my full rig for gigs where it's not required, if someone is using the wrong gear for the gig when they have other options ie their smaller amp I see no problem in telling them?
[/quote]

Maybe they dont have the luxury of having two rigs.

And it seems they are the type of guitarists that if you told them to bring a smaller rig, they might not be best pleased.

[jackers]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1353866224' post='1879136']
I have invested plenty but would still expect to be told not to use my full rig for gigs where it's not required, if someone is using the wrong gear for the gig when they have other options ie their smaller amp I see no problem in telling them?
[/quote]

This is exactly what I would expect too. I have 2 cabs, but I would never just assume I could turn up at the venue and announce that I am going to be using both.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='pendingrequests' timestamp='1353930451' post='1879772']


Maybe they dont have the luxury of having two rigs.

And it seems they are the type of guitarists that if you told them to bring a smaller rig, they might not be best pleased.
[/quote]
They both bought 2 cabs each, I presume they knew it was not knebworth?

[RockfordStone]

sounds like you have done the right thing, ignoring the gear issue, they sound like dickheads talking to a venue engineer like that.

ive been in bands with decent size rigs, but usually we played venues with little or no moniroting so we used them as much as monitors, but we never used anything bigger than a 100watt marshall valve amp with a 4 x 12... unless you are on a big stage in front of a lot of people, its not needed.

sounds like these guys were using cabs as a penis extension.

[Doddy]

[quote name='pendingrequests' timestamp='1353930451' post='1879772']
Maybe they dont have the luxury of having two rigs.

And it seems they are the type of guitarists that if you told them to bring a smaller rig, they might not be best pleased.
[/quote]

But,they do have the option/luxury of having a smaller rig.If you've got a head/cab set up it's very easy to go
smaller-you don't have to use two cabs.I've been told many times to bring a small amp to gigs...it's no big deal.
I once did a dep gig with a guy a few years ago who did a similar thing-it was a small pub,so I used my old Hartke
HA4000 head and 2x10 cab. The guitarist turned up with a Marshall 100 watt head,2 4x12 cabs and a rack of guitars
(including EVH Wolfgang and Blackmore Strat-says it all). Completely unnecessary and way too loud,but it pampered
to his once or twice a month rock star ego. I know so many guitar players (and bass players and drummers) who do this
all the time.

[KevB]

Point them in the direction of some of this gear....

[IMG]http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/KevB64/fakestack.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/KevB64/fakemarshall.jpg[/IMG]

[uncle psychosis]

Whilst I agree with the "they sound like prats, you did the right thing" comment there are a lot of misconceptions in this thread as well. Small guitar amps pushed hard do *not* always sound as good as large guitar amps. Some of my favourite guitar sounds are for large, high power amps, but with the volume turned down to a sensible level. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is nothing inherently wrong with using a 100W marshall for a pub gig, so long as you use it at an appropriate volume. Volume is the problem, not power. Your guitarist could be using a 30W amp and it still be too loud for the occasion.

[stingrayPete1977]

Some amps minimum volume is way too loud for the dog and duck, 100watt Marshall without a power soak is too loud to sound good at most pub gigs, put the top cab on as well forget it

[Low End Bee]

It's lovely being in a band where I have to keep telling my guitarist with a 30watt valve combo to turn up the volume.
My heart sinks if we're sharing a bill with a band and they start building a wardrobe on stage. It wastes so much time on a sound check too.
For the right type of band in a big old venue it's splendid. In the 100-300 capacity ones we generally play it's like taking an aircraft carrier on the school run.

[Big_Stu]

Could always do what Quo do - and have lights replacing some of the speakers in the cabs. Most of their white Marshall gear is either unplugged or dummy I was told.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1353942199' post='1879988']
Whilst I agree with the "they sound like prats, you did the right thing" comment there are a lot of misconceptions in this thread as well. Small guitar amps pushed hard do *not* always sound as good as large guitar amps. Some of my favourite guitar sounds are for large, high power amps, but with the volume turned down to a sensible level. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is nothing inherently wrong with using a 100W marshall for a pub gig, so long as you use it at an appropriate volume. Volume is the problem, not power. Your guitarist could be using a 30W amp and it still be too loud for the occasion.
[/quote]
I'd broadly agree with this, but the players who prefer a big amp barely ticking over are usually the ones who like to keep the power stage clean, either for a big clean sound, reproducing modellers/effects, or in amps that are based around high gain preamps. They're not usually the same ones who insist that they have to run the volume on 7 to get their sound. Myself, I don't play any louder through a Twin or similar than I do with my little Princeton, but I can appreciate the difference in sound between the two, even with very similarly voiced preamps. I enjoy the smaller amp with a bit of compression and hair to the tone, and it's enough to sit in the mix with my drummer on stage in the venues we play, but some may prefer something that breaks up less.

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1353944322' post='1880029']
I'd broadly agree with this, but the players who prefer a big amp barely ticking over are usually the ones who like to keep the power stage clean, either for a big clean sound, reproducing modellers/effects, or in amps that are based around high gain preamps. They're not usually the same ones who insist that they have to run the volume on 7 to get their sound. Myself, I don't play any louder through a Twin or similar than I do with my little Princeton, but I can appreciate the difference in sound between the two, even with very similarly voiced preamps. I enjoy the smaller amp with a bit of compression and hair to the tone, and it's enough to sit in the mix with my drummer on stage in the venues we play, but some may prefer something that breaks up less.
[/quote]

I agree with you---but I was just pointing out that its not fair (or just plain wrong) for us bassists to suggest that a guitarist should never turn up to a gig with a 100W stack because a "mic'd up 15W combo is more than enough...". I'd have no issue the guitarist in my band wanted to use two 100W stacks, so long as he kept the volume at a sensible level!

Just to reiterate: There is no such thing as inappropriate [i]power, [/i]only inappropriate[i] volume.[/i]

[Count Bassy]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1353945623' post='1880057']
I agree with you---but I was just pointing out that its not fair (or just plain wrong) for us bassists to suggest that a guitarist should never turn up to a gig with a 100W stack because a "mic'd up 15W combo is more than enough...". I'd have no issue the guitarist in my band wanted to use two 100W stacks, so long as he kept the volume at a sensible level!

Just to reiterate: There is no such thing as inappropriate [i]power, [/i]only inappropriate[i] volume.[/i]
[/quote]
Or to sum up ....

It's not how big it is - it's what you do with it.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!!

[Kongo]

[quote name='jackers' timestamp='1353723720' post='1877925']
Afterwards we were outside talking, and I suggest maybe downsizing their rigs to one 4x12 and a lower wattage (possibly switchable) head. Ofcourse this was met with cries of "Everything below 100W sounds cr*p" and "Big rigs and rock and roll" etc etc.

[/quote]

What kind of guitarists where these? Higher wattage will just need them to push the amp harder to overdrive the valve. Unless they want clinically clean tone that's double the amount they need. 50 watt is more than enough in most situations...Silly pair they are. :-P

[pendingrequests]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1353939673' post='1879946']
But,they do have the option/luxury of having a smaller rig.If you've got a head/cab set up it's very easy to go
smaller-you don't have to use two cabs.I've been told many times to bring a small amp to gigs...it's no big deal.
I once did a dep gig with a guy a few years ago who did a similar thing-it was a small pub,so I used my old Hartke
HA4000 head and 2x10 cab. The guitarist turned up with a Marshall 100 watt head,2 4x12 cabs and a rack of guitars
(including EVH Wolfgang and Blackmore Strat-says it all). Completely unnecessary and way too loud,but it pampered
to his once or twice a month rock star ego. I know so many guitar players (and bass players and drummers) who do this
all the time.
[/quote]

Yes, but as I previously said they seem the type of musicians who will say, no I will not downsize my rig.

You are obviously prepared for this and have had experience, but not everyone likes to be professional

Edited November 27, 2012 by pendingrequests

[Conan]

[quote name='pietruszka' timestamp='1353868597' post='1879171']
Just because you've bought equipment, doesn't mean it ALL has to be used at every gig. As for spending time investing in my own sound? I never do that, I spend time getting the bands sound right. What I think of my sound is irrelevant as I'm not playing for myself, I'm playing for the band. This is something bass heavey guitarists seemingly fail to do.
Dan
[/quote]

That's my approach too, but sadly it is all too rare. It's hard being a grown-up sometimes...

[The Admiral]

I was interested to see the guitar tech area at a Nickelback gig a few years ago. The band had a stage set with a wall of Marshall cabs, but the guitar was actually routed through an AC30, with another alongside as a spare - all controlled by the tech at stage side. This was mic'd with an SM57 and the cabs were just for pose value. The curious thing is - they changed guitars every song, buy they have the bits supplied by Gibson etc, and then fit them all with the same active EMG pickups, so despite the guitar changes, they always sound the same - so why bother? I can't imagine it has anything to do with tunings, unless they simply tune down for the odd song?

I also saw the late Gary Moore supporting BB King, and he sounded immense, with just a Marshall 50w head, an angled 4 x 12 - just behind him, and a beautiful old Les Paul Goldtop with P90s. The tone was all from his fingers and his control of the volume on the guitar. Mic'd with a desktop stand, set on the floor, pointing at the edge of one of the speakers : and this was in a huge arena, not The Dog and Duck!

It's a mixture of delusion, ego, marketing hype and the rubbish touted in guitar mags that drives this kind of behaviour I think. When I used to play league cricket you saw a lot of this sort of attitude around gear : £250 'signature' bat, and may as well have come out with a bit of 4x2, for all they could use it.

A

[musophilr]

Guitarists are 2 a penny. If those 2 insisted on using inappropriate gear for the venue, you can easily replace them with others who have more common sense. I keep a pair of Marshall 4 x 12s and a variety of heads including a Mk I 100W SLP at home but haven't had the need to use them for some time (but I'd love to find the excuse). If the gig is big enough I'll take the Bluesbreaker combo, and if it isn't I'll take the AC30 (CC2X version, which has a master volume).

Punters don't care whether the guitar sound comes from pedals, a rack of FX, or a huge stack.