ditched my effects and got my dream sound

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='leroydiamond' timestamp='1354026542' post='1881011']Dont agree. High end Hi Fi is about careful matching of your components in order to get the optimum sound to suit a given situation. Tone controls help when the marching is not optimum in order to compensate. Pity though that all Hi Fi buffs who use high end amps without tone controls are uneducated audiophiles [/quote]


So if your intention was to eliminate tone controls from your home hi-fi, and instead carefully match your components to suit your living room, how would you go about doing that?

I guess you'd do spectrum analyses of your room and take that data to the hi-fi shop who would match your EQ requirements to a specific set of components? What if the exact set of components for your room don't exist? Do you capitulate and buy an EQ - a consumer unit specifically designed to fix the problem you're having - or do you start remodelling your house?

Your approach sounds impractical for both the consumer and the hi-fi industry, who presumably can't mass-produce anything any more because it all needs to be built bespoke to match individual listening rooms. I suppose that does at least go some way to justifying the ridiculous prices.

[leroydiamond]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1354026957' post='1881021']
Are you reading my posts before you reply to them? There's nothing stupid about using boxes with true bypass switching so long as you understand what that means and what the benefits (and drawbacks) are. If you do then you can make it work for you. If you don't then you'll probably end up making an incorrect assumption about why your bass sounds like sh*t, followed by a triumphant thread about how you heroically threw the baby out with the bathwater.



Good for you. All that was left for me to do is explain it to all the potential readers that may come in here with similar problems so they don't make the same mistakes that you made. Now you have served as an warning to others, so it's all good.
[/quote]

Are you reading my posts? I have used true bypass and buffered effects and IMO my Tone is alot better without either. Pure and simple.

[leroydiamond]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1354027320' post='1881028']
So if your intention was to eliminate tone controls from your home hi-fi, and instead carefully match your components to suit your living room, how would you go about doing that?

I guess you'd do spectrum analyses of your room and take that data to the hi-fi shop who would match your EQ requirements to a specific set of components? What if the exact set of components for your room don't exist? Do you capitulate and buy an EQ - a consumer unit specifically designed to fix the problem you're having - or do you start remodelling your house?

Your approach sounds impractical for both the consumer and the hi-fi industry, who presumably can't mass-produce anything any more because it all needs to be built bespoke to match individual listening rooms. I suppose that does at least go some way to justifying the ridiculous prices.
[/quote]

you can go whatever route you want. Fact is that many Amplifier manufacturers choose to produce amps without tone controls. It is not a fact that those who choose to purchase them are uneducated audiofiles

Edited November 27, 2012 by leroydiamond

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='leroydiamond' timestamp='1354027614' post='1881037']
I have used true bypass and buffered effects and IMO my Tone is alot better without either.
[/quote]

But you don't understand why, and you've ended up back where you started with no more of a clue than you had in the first place, which makes your experimentation completely worthless!

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='leroydiamond' timestamp='1354027867' post='1881045']
you can go whatever route you want. Fact is that many Amplifier manufacturers choose to produce amps without tone controls. It is not a fact that those who choose to purchase them are uneducated audiofiles
[/quote]

No I meant what would [i]you[/i] do. I'm pretty content with the sound I'm getting from my hi-fi and the furthest thing from my mind is removing all the tone controls to see if it sounds better. I wanted to know what you - as a believer in this approach - what procedure would you employ to match your hi-fi components perfectly to your listening environment?

I am willing to concede that removing all the tone controls from your setup would be a good thing if you can explain how you find out what is exactly the right setup for your room. And could you also describe what changes you would make if you bought a new sofa. Would you then begin the entire process again from the start?

[xgsjx]

Having no tone controls to get a "pure" sound is baloni. The amp's pre & power sections & the speakers are going to colour it to some degree, as is the positioning of the speakers & the furnature in the room.
Having an EQ of some sort means that if there's too much of something, you can roll it off. EQ/tone controls should be set flat & then adjusted to suit the room. This goes for any amp - bass, hifi or PA.

[KingBollock]

I know an audiophile who swears that no EQ is the way to go, but I don't understand it. It's not just that every room is different, but also peoples' hearing is different. I suppose I might be able to accept it if every CD was mixed perfectly, but they're not. You might be able to tailor your equipment to the room it's going to live in, but the source and the receiver (CD and your ears) are too variable for such a feat.

[51m0n]

<Oar-In>
Now this whole using EQ to fix the room thing....

Its a bit of a myth actually

You cant fix issues with room nodes with an eq, since regardless of the settings on the eq the issues prevail.

The issues are more often time and frequency decay issue, whereby certain frequencies (due to ringing) may be louder for longer in one place and quieter in another than other frequencies.

If you turn the eq down for one frequency you can fix the issue for one, tiny place, but will change the problem elsewhere (thats the nodes) but you wont fix the ringing (as seen on a waterfall plot), and you cant fix every multiple of the frequency (which you need to) without ruining the sound everywhere.

And hi-fi has never, ever come with tone controls close to complex and comprehensive enough to even make a stab at fixing an acoustic.

</Oar-in>

As for True bypass vs Buffered? Use an active bass and stop worrying about it

Edited November 27, 2012 by 51m0n

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1354028950' post='1881074']*snipped good stuff about acoustics*

As for True bypass vs Buffered? Use an active bass and stop worrying about it [/quote]

I'm not ignoring the wink at the end there but I'm sure you know that even a low-impedance signal can get obviously degraded after 20 or so feet of cable.

[51m0n]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1354029243' post='1881085']
I'm not ignoring the wink at the end there but I'm sure you know that even a low-impedance signal can get obviously degraded after 20 or so feet of cable.
[/quote]

Yes, it can, however, IME its far more likely that pedal board signal degradation is due to poor quality interconnecting patch cables.

I use 10 ft in to the board and 10 or 20ft out of it, I couldn't care less about true bypass vs buffered - actually in point of fact I'd far rather have a really great buffered signal than a true bypass signal, since it will (again IME) degrade significantly less with cable length.

However a good active circuit goes a hell of a long way towards making that unimportant (again IME). Yes you can probalby measure some degradation, but in live use I haven't been able to really notice any degradation in my board with either active bass, but you cantell (albeit slightly) with the passive one.

[51m0n]

Oh and yes, I definitely advocate no tone controls on an amp.

Get the room right and you dont need them, as someone said everyone hears differently, but, their day to day perception of sounds is generally very similar to everyone else* and equally importantly most mixes are done on reasonable monitors in reasonable room and decent mastering is done on incredible gear in incredible purpose built rooms.

Don't forget that the biggest thing you can do to improve your listening experience on [i]any reasonable stereo in any normal room[/i] is to go some way to fixing the acoustic. Far cheaper to do than a lot of** the so called audiophile stereo equiptment (with attendant snakeoil fantasy products to add extra bite, gnarl, whimper, and beloved-sploink to your listening pleasure, with free crystals and shakra-gasm inducing spleen resistant leatherette finish) and with definite, measurable, guaranteed results.

I would rather listen to a £500 stereo in a room with (at least partically) sorted acoustics than a £500k stereo in an untreated room.

*Unless they are going seriously deaf, or have blown huge chunks of their top end hearing through misuse. In either of these cases adding treble or bass will not in any way magically fix the issue.

**Who do I think I'm kidding, cheaper than [i]all of[/i]

Edited November 27, 2012 by 51m0n

[leroydiamond]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1354028263' post='1881051']
No I meant what would [i]you[/i] do. I'm pretty content with the sound I'm getting from my hi-fi and the furthest thing from my mind is removing all the tone controls to see if it sounds better. I wanted to know what you - as a believer in this approach - what procedure would you employ to match your hi-fi components perfectly to your listening environment?

I am willing to concede that removing all the tone controls from your setup would be a good thing if you can explain how you find out what is exactly the right setup for your room. And could you also describe what changes you would make if you bought a new sofa. Would you then begin the entire process again from the start?
[/quote]

i am lucky in that there is a small community of Hi Fi buffs around here that swap gear over and back. Together with our local equipment supplier who allowed me try a number of combination I arrived at a set up that suited my needs. If I change the sofa I will re-evaluate my set up

[xgsjx]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1354028950' post='1881074']
<Oar-In>
Now this whole using EQ to fix the room thing....

Its a bit of a myth actually

You cant fix issues with room nodes with an eq, since regardless of the settings on the eq the issues prevail.

The issues are more often time and frequency decay issue, whereby certain frequencies (due to ringing) may be louder for longer in one place and quieter in another than other frequencies.

If you turn the eq down for one frequency you can fix the issue for one, tiny place, but will change the problem elsewhere (thats the nodes) but you wont fix the ringing (as seen on a waterfall plot), and you cant fix every multiple of the frequency (which you need to) without ruining the sound everywhere.

And hi-fi has never, ever come with tone controls close to complex and comprehensive enough to even make a stab at fixing an acoustic.

</Oar-in>

As for True bypass vs Buffered? Use an active bass and stop worrying about it
[/quote]

Very true, but most dedicated audiophiles have their optimal sitting position, therefore EQ allows tailoring for that given position.

[51m0n]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1354031063' post='1881121']
Very true, but most dedicated audiophiles have their optimal sitting position, therefore EQ allows tailoring for that given position.
[/quote]

No it doesn't.

You cannot eq out ringing in the room at frequency n being twice as long as ringing in the room at frequency m

So you turn down the preception of too much bass, but actually in any given instant there isnt too much bass, over time there is too much bass. Turning it down with an EQ, doesnt stop the ringing, it just puts less energy at that frequency into the room, so now your balance is wrong, and you still have the issue of the ringing smeering the bass.

It is a different issue, that [i]cannot[/i] be fixed with EQ. The use of EQ to fix acoustic issues in a serious listening room should be entirely debunked. Yes we use some EQ to try and help at a gig, but to be honest as everyone who has played their bass and wandered round the room can tell you cant fix the tone everywhere with EQ, its a myth, you have to compromise (hugely). And for any audiophile compromise is not a word that exists in their dictionalry (or they aren't audiophiles). Yet there is a persistance in the myth of EQing to the room.

Also, please show me an audiophile HI-Fi EQ capable of the kind of surgical cutting we are talking about here. I am definitely not talking about your average gentle +/-9dB shelving EQ, something more akin to a 64 band graphic, or 20 band fully parametric would really be what is required.

This is not the same as EQing for taste, that you can do to your hearts content (assuming you have sorted the room out so its not wildly messing things up after the eq), but dont muddle that up with EQing for the room

[leroydiamond]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1354028035' post='1881049']
But you don't understand why, and you've ended up back where you started with no more of a clue than you had in the first place, which makes your experimentation completely worthless!
[/quote]

I Have enjoyed the experimentation of using effects, just prefer my tone without them. Its that simple.

[bremen]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1354028950' post='1881074']
<Oar-In>
Now this whole using EQ to fix the room thing....

Its a bit of a myth actually

You cant fix issues with room nodes with an eq, since regardless of the settings on the eq the issues prevail.

The issues are more often time and frequency decay issue, whereby certain frequencies (due to ringing) may be louder for longer in one place and quieter in another than other frequencies.

If you turn the eq down for one frequency you can fix the issue for one, tiny place, but will change the problem elsewhere (thats the nodes) but you wont fix the ringing (as seen on a waterfall plot), and you cant fix every multiple of the frequency (which you need to) without ruining the sound everywhere.

And hi-fi has never, ever come with tone controls close to complex and comprehensive enough to even make a stab at fixing an acoustic.

</Oar-in>


[/quote]

<Applause>

[leroydiamond]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1354029710' post='1881095']
Yes, it can, however, IME its far more likely that pedal board signal degradation is due to poor quality interconnecting patch cables.

I use 10 ft in to the board and 10 or 20ft out of it, I couldn't care less about true bypass vs buffered - actually in point of fact I'd far rather have a really great buffered signal than a true bypass signal, since it will (again IME) degrade significantly less with cable length.

However a good active circuit goes a hell of a long way towards making that unimportant (again IME). Yes you can probalby measure some degradation, but in live use I haven't been able to really notice any degradation in my board with either active bass, but you cantell (albeit slightly) with the passive one.
[/quote]

Using a Sadowsky with active circuit but still noticed a difference in tone once I removed the effects unit. Subtle but noticable

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1354029710' post='1881095']
Yes, it can, however, IME its far more likely that pedal board signal degradation is due to poor quality interconnecting patch cables.

I use 10 ft in to the board and 10 or 20ft out of it, I couldn't care less about true bypass vs buffered - actually in point of fact I'd far rather have a really great buffered signal than a true bypass signal, since it will (again IME) degrade significantly less with cable length.

However a good active circuit goes a hell of a long way towards making that unimportant (again IME). Yes you can probalby measure some degradation, but in live use I haven't been able to really notice any degradation in my board with either active bass, but you cantell (albeit slightly) with the passive one.
[/quote]

I've noticed a deadening of the sound of my Warwick over 25-30ft cable runs with only a true bypass switch connecting two decent-quality instrument cables - no patch cables involved in the signal path. It was noticeable to me, especially when I then just plugged a single 15ft cable directly into my amp. Sure it's worse with a passive bass I agree, but it's bad enough to be a problem with actives in my experience.

My strategy is to always have one 'master switch' pedal that I can push to take all of my effects out of the signal path entirely, and I'm currently using a box that Max at SFX built for me as a transparent buffer (as well as being a 2-channel mixer). Prior to that I used a Boss LS-2 (not quite good enough IMO - some noticeable treble loss when in bypass, wasn't too bad though) and prior to that a passive true-bypass loop switch (not nearly good enough - tone suck central). In terms of interconnecting patch cables I use George Ls but I'm not massively concerned with what they do to my sound because my sound is going to get gnarled up by my effects when they are in the signal path anyway, there's no bass guitar sound worth preserving once the signal's gone down one of those routes.

Edited November 27, 2012 by thisnameistaken

[leroydiamond]

[quote name='pendingrequests' timestamp='1354019061' post='1880823']
I've been playing covers for the majority of my playing career and have never needed effects. Only until recently, I use a chorus pedal on 'Don't Stop Believing'

I play a range of stuff and don't see why I need a £80 pedal for a sound that will be used once or twice, where a punter won't come up to me at the end and say "Excuse me, but your bass tone for Stuck In The Middle With You doesn't have the same tone as the record, I will be telling the management not to pay you".

I understand everyone is in a different situation and maybe plays different covers and music to what I am. I'm just a very big supporter of less tech and pedals and more classic tone and sound.
[/quote]
+1

[51m0n]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1354037392' post='1881268']
I've noticed a deadening of the sound of my Warwick over 25-30ft cable runs with only a true bypass switch connecting two decent-quality instrument cables - no patch cables involved in the signal path. It was noticeable to me, especially when I then just plugged a single 15ft cable directly into my amp. Sure it's worse with a passive bass I agree, but it's bad enough to be a problem with actives in my experience.

My strategy is to always have one 'master switch' pedal that I can push to take all of my effects out of the signal path entirely, and I'm currently using a box that Max at SFX built for me as a transparent buffer (as well as being a 2-channel mixer). Prior to that I used a Boss LS-2 (not quite good enough IMO - some noticeable treble loss when in bypass, wasn't too bad though) and prior to that a passive true-bypass loop switch (not nearly good enough - tone suck central). In terms of interconnecting patch cables I use George Ls but I'm not massively concerned with what they do to my sound because my sound is going to get gnarled up by my effects when they are in the signal path anyway, there's no bass guitar sound worth preserving once the signal's gone down one of those routes.
[/quote]

INteresting.

If I get time this evening I may do a little bit of analysis on my bass tone - record the same passage with 10ft, 20ft and fx pedals in bypass sort of thing - it wont be scientific but it will be interesting

[51m0n]

[quote name='bremen' timestamp='1354033369' post='1881178']
<Applause>
[/quote]

<Bows>

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1354039868' post='1881311']
If I get time this evening I may do a little bit of analysis on my bass tone - record the same passage with 10ft, 20ft and fx pedals in bypass sort of thing - it wont be scientific but it will be interesting [/quote]

I don't know that I ever tried 20ft - I usually use 15ft from board to amp and 10ft from my guitars, although that is sometimes 15ft, so I think my experiments were with either 25ft or 30ft. That's not to say you won't notice with 20ft, just that I don't think I tried that.

[Lozz196]

[quote name='leroydiamond' timestamp='1354033299' post='1881175']
I Have enjoyed the experimentation of using effects, just prefer my tone without them. Its that simple.
[/quote]

Same here.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='leroydiamond' timestamp='1354018153' post='1880798']
I agree. Working in a covers band demands that I use effects. The difficulty is that when you want the pure tone from your instrument (which is what I require 80% of the time) my abiltiy to access it is hampered by the very fact that I am using an effects unit. The Hi Fi analogy might be an interesting comparrison. Many high end HI FI manufacturers no longer offer tone options on their amps. The goal here is to get the signal from source (eg CD player) in as short and clean a path as possiible through the amplification process and outputted to the speakers in order to acquire optimum sound. It may be the case that the same might be true for musicians if they are after the true tone of the instrument.
[/quote]

Companies that sell musical equipment of whatever variety spend a lot of money nurturing and exploit "memes" (appealing that ideas tend to catch on over time irrespective of their actual merit).

"simpler things sound better than more complex ones"
"analogue things sound better than digital"
"hand made things sound better than mass produced ones"
"things that are tweed coloured and have chicken-head knobs on sound better"
"things made in america/UK sound better"

Personally I've never come across anything that clearly demonstrates that any of the above are true more often than that arn't.

As a side note. I applaud companies like Barefaced than are prepared to challenge memes if pursuit of making better products - I mean taking on the "you need small speakers to get a taut well defined bass sound" took a lot of guts.

Edited November 27, 2012 by bassman7755

[51m0n]

Thats all fine, doesnt for one moment change the fact that the issue is the room acoustic more often than not, and it cant be fixed with any amount of eq, so why bother fitting an eq on an amp if its for sale to people spending enough money to have a dedicated listening room?

Analogue EQ's work by causing phase changes (for the most part); that is an additional distortion of the signal. Hence it is less pure if you use an EQ. If purity is your goal why would you ever try and fix a percieved issue by adding distortion and ohase issues (as well as a dose of treble or bass that they room you are in can't handle), when the issue isnt in the source but the room?