4 Strings Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 1. If breaking a speaker in makes a difference, why is it always a difference for the better? Bit like the difference in the performance of an engine as it heats up, why is it better? Its because that's the way its been designed, to run warm. Just like breaking in the shoes. They weren't designed to be stiff and make your feet sore. The speakers have been designed with a certain compliance of suspension, that compliance isn't reached in brand new speakers until they've been loosened up a bit. 2. For all the people who claim to hear a difference in their speakers after break-in (where there is no measurable difference in the system frequency response) why doesn’t anyone notice a difference in their speakers after they’ve been playing them for a while? After all, driver parameters change as the voice coil gets hot and this has a very real effect on frequency response that you can in fact measure. If a hot coil makes this sort of difference, maybe we do hear the difference. Maybe the sound we get settled with during a gig or rehearsal isn't just our ears and our playing warming up but also the voice coil warming up. I'll have a better listen next time I'm out playing - tonight, tomorrow, three times on Sunday! I have no measuring equipment (due to no interest in making any measurements) but those who do tell you about the difference in results. Of course it could be me just getting used to the sound of the new speakers, but the difference is far more marked. As I said, I was unhappy, planning on sending my Midget and Compact back to Alex as I was definitely unconvinced and their high cost left me deeply unsatisfied. Now I can't help but recommend them. I have no reason for loyalty, I paid very good money for the cabs, they needed to be good and have been worth the perseverance. Maybe the long coil movement means the suspension compliance has a more noted effect on the speakers Alex (and Maurice) use. Don't know. Was unhappy, tried the advice, it worked, speakers have been getting better since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 There's no doubt that they free up and sound better over time, I have seen it with a repaired EV pa cab we had in the last band. Foh sounded lifeless on the new cab side, swapped the cables round just in case it was a faulty repair or anything and twas still that side that had less clarity which is exactly what they told us at EV as it would need to be run in. What did we do? More gigs! By the 3rd gig both sides gave a perfect match even after trying various little tests of swapping things round just to be certain. Just use it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Stevie, I know all about the break-in rubbish used in the hi-fi industry to foist poor products on unsuspecting 'audiophiles' through the power of expectation bias, listener conditioning and placebo effects and this is absolutely nothing like that. I can only assume that the woofer you tested had already been used and therefore wasn't fresh or that your test procedure was flawed. You don't design a loudspeaker around a fresh unused example, you do it around one has been 'pre-conditioned'. If the designer knows what they're doing then one would hope that a driver which meets specs for the enclosure design would have better low frequency response than a new one whose specs are some way off. Furthermore the midrange and treble response in the non-pistonic region are affected by the suspension characteristics, just as changing the nut, fret and bridge materials change how your bass strings sound by changing the damping characteristics at the anchor points. Driver parameters also change at high SPL due to voice coil heating and motor non-linearity. It's a huge issue which I've been obsessing about for a long time. However, once voice coils are hot you're playing very loud and there are so many issues with the human ear alone at this SPL that you'd have to know what to expect to hear to realise it's going on. One reason I'm convinced that our Super Twelves (or Midget + Compact stack) are proving so popular is that the high sensitivity and large voice coils mean much less temperature rise in the voice coil, and thus better bass response (less boom, more depth) and less chance of clipping (because your amp can deliver more power to a cooler voice coil). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 [quote name='stevie' timestamp='1354286544' post='1884480'[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1354286544' post='1884480'] Expectation bias is a very strange thing. I remember being convinced of the superiority of my £100 interconnect cables until I recommended them to a friend and we compared them with the free ones that came with his amplifier. Of course, in those days when you got a new item of hi-fi equipment the first thing you did was to bin the free cables supplied and replace them with a pair from a boutique maker made from 99.999 percent oxygen-free silver-plated copper. [/quote] Yep, been there, although they were 'only' £18. Had to connect them the right way round too, the electrons would alternating back and forth better if the blue end was plugged in the amp and red in the source! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jus Lukin Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 (edited) - Edited February 16, 2022 by Jus Lukin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BILL POSTERS Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 [quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1354291130' post='1884557'] Had to connect them the right way round too, the electrons would alternating back and forth better if the blue end was plugged in the amp and red in the source! [/quote] Thats got to be the best bit of audiophile bullshyte I've ever heard. And I've heard a fair bit.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 [quote name='andyjingram' timestamp='1354293277' post='1884585'] A forced break-in is exactly the same effect, just outside of a playing situation. [/quote] Isn't that when you lose you speaker altogether? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 [quote name='BILL POSTERS' timestamp='1354293932' post='1884593'] Thats got to be the best bit of audiophile bullshyte I've ever heard. And I've heard a fair bit.. [/quote] Haha, I know, cost me £18 too! I thought the best were the gold plated mains plug pins until I came across these; http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/fuses/322-silver-plated-bussmann-fuses.html They certainly make something prominent, probably not sound though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 (edited) [quote name='andyjingram' timestamp='1354200995' post='1883491'] I think that outside of the audiophile world, the only real concern with speaker break-in is in guitar amps. Distorted guitar can sound noticeably unpleasant through a fresh speaker, and starts to 'open-up' over time, something guitarists are keen to get through rapidly. [/quote] Here's a video on YouTube showing a comparison between a new and a 'broken-in' Celestion guitar speaker: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGjMhHKP7Go> It's well done but quite unscientific in that 1) you know which speaker you're listening to and 2) the volume and particularly the amount of distortion changes depending on how he plays his guitar. Anyhow, what is interesting about this is the comments. Given that there is no marked sonic difference between the two speakers (although you are welcome to disagree) [i]everyone[/i] who has left a comment prefers the broken-in speaker. Now isn't that strange? I really liked this comment (I think he was serious): "It's obvious the broken in speaker is CLEANER than the new one. The new one seems a bit 'stiff'." Edited November 30, 2012 by stevie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Guitar speakers tend to sound loads different when broken it, guess due to low xmax and large influence of breakup on their sound. New V30s are horrible but broken in ones are lovely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 I think a lot of it has to do with the way the paper surround softens up over time, Mr. Foxen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1354283625' post='1884428'] The running in of a car isn't a very good analogy. The wearing in of a pair of new unwashed jeans or leather shoes is, because they get softer with use, as do the suspensions on drivers. Like Alex I don't recommend breaking in drivers just because I think it might be beneficial, it's because I've measured the results of break in, literally hundreds of times. I very much doubt that the wags who say it doesn't do anything have any data to back up their assertions. [/quote] It's true that a car isn't a good analogy. Neither are shoes unless you are planning to stick them on your feet and walk in them. The wags who say it doesn't do anything are the only ones who have published data. The "burn-in" camp relies on anecdotes and assertions. Here is someone who carried out exactly the same tests as I did and came to the same conclusion: <http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/speaker-break-in-fact-or-fiction>. For those who have better things to do, the conclusion this person comes to is "From the foregoing analyses, it's reasonable to conclude that suspension compliance changes arising as a consequence of initial driver burn in has little effect on the performance of a loudspeaker system." And there's plenty more where that came from. As you've measured the results of break-in hundreds of times, Bill, it surely wouldn't be too difficult for you to supply the "data to back up your assertions." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 [quote name='stevie' timestamp='1354301118' post='1884680'] I think a lot of it has to do with the way the paper surround softens up over time, Mr. Foxen. [/quote] That is what break in is, yes. But you are asserting it doesn't happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Guitar loudspeakers are a different animal. And just to clarify, I'm not saying that drivers don't 'break in'; I'm suggesting that break-in is not audible in the context of a speaker system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 They break in and the tone changes. But that isn't audible in my speaker system that includes guitar speakers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 I don't know what's audible and what's not audible in your speakers, Mr. Foxen. I've never heard them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 (edited) [quote name='stevie' timestamp='1354305954' post='1884734'] Guitar loudspeakers are a different animal. And just to clarify, I'm not saying that drivers don't 'break in'; I'm suggesting that break-in is not audible in the context of a speaker system. [/quote] You could 100% hear it on our 15" pa speaker, sounded like someone had forced a lump of foam behind the grill or as the eBay comment you laughed at 'stiff', I agree. Bit like having an ashdown amp my point is more that you may as well just get on with gigging it, I would have no trouble dialling it out with the 900 watt Shuttle Max 9.2 Edited November 30, 2012 by stingrayPete1977 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultima2876 Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1354309781' post='1884789'] Bit like having an ashdown amp [/quote] Ha, if my ashdown was any brighter I'd have to send it back! As it is I can't dial in enough fudge! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 [quote name='stevie' timestamp='1354305954' post='1884734'] I'm suggesting that break-in is not audible in the context of a speaker system. [/quote] [quote name='stevie' timestamp='1354309504' post='1884783'] I don't know what's audible and what's not audible in your speakers, Mr. Foxen. I've never heard them. [/quote] So by saying 'not audible', you are meaning not audible to you personally because you can't hear the system, rather than actually being audible to people hearing them? Or the rule only applies to stuff you've heard? Or "not audible in the context of a speaker system" only applies to speakers where it doesn't, and systems where it does they are 'a different animal'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 (edited) You have done the right thing by not having one their cabs though Edited November 30, 2012 by stingrayPete1977 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjones Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 I do remember that when I bought my Fender TV15 combo (which had a green label celestion in it) I was initially disappointed at the lack of bass response from it. But as I played it, it seemed to get bassier and bassier. This was well before I'd ever heard the concept of 'playing in' a speaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1354311065' post='1884817'] So by saying 'not audible', you are meaning not audible to you personally because you can't hear the system, rather than actually being audible to people hearing them? Or the rule only applies to stuff you've heard? Or "not audible in the context of a speaker system" only applies to speakers where it doesn't, and systems where it does they are 'a different animal'? [/quote] Edited November 30, 2012 by stevie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jus Lukin Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 (edited) - Edited February 16, 2022 by Jus Lukin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BILL POSTERS Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 [quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1354294500' post='1884603'] Haha, I know, cost me £18 too! I thought the best were the gold plated mains plug pins until I came across these; [/quote] where you went wrong, is you didnt get one of these to compement it. [url="http://www.elucidate-cables.co.uk/MainsProducts.html"]http://www.elucidate-cables.co.uk/MainsProducts.html[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solo4652 Posted December 1, 2012 Author Share Posted December 1, 2012 So, with reference to my new Promethean combo, it seems that the sensible and easy thing to do is simply to play it at home practice volume for a few days and then take it to rehearsal. That's if it lasts that long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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