New speaker "playing in" period?

[Jack]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1355259944' post='1896168']
What you seemed to be saying was that being a mere bassist makes your opinion less valid than those working in the "industry". That's what Bill Fitzmaurice seemed to be saying.
[/quote]

On this topic, yes. I'm a stockman and so I'd expect that I know more about certain animals than you. Whatever you do professionally you're probably better at and more knowledgeable than me. As another example, I'm a pretty highly qualified first aider and emergency medic as part of my job so maybe I know more about that than you do, unless you're a nurse, doctor, paramedic or otherwise more highly trained than me, in which case not.

If we were discussing which amp was best for metal in small pubs, which is a subjective and opinionated subject I'd think pretty much everyone was welcome, but I'd give more credence to the opinions of those who were playing in metal bands in small pubs and who'd used a variety of amps. What would a jazz bassist who's never left his bedroom know? For that matter what would a classically trained pianist know? Or a race car driver? Why is listening to a veteran professional (who you'd rightly or wrongly assume to be somewhat of an expert) a bad thing?

PS - I can't speak for BFM, maybe he wasn't saying that.


EDIT - And PPS, I most certainly am not an expert or a professional on the subject of speakers or their breaking in. It's something I hear but it may or may not be psychosomatic for all I know. When I say 'what do bassists necessarily know?', I include myself (as ever) in the less-knowledgable camp.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Jack

[Beer of the Bass]

Personally, I value the presence of the various industry professionals (and a number of informed amateurs and DIYers) on this forum and their input probably saves a lot of people from costly trial and error with their gear. Having said that, participating in a forum called basschat then complaining that all this [i]chat[/i] from all these [i]bassists[/i] is cluttering up the place, as BFM appears to be doing, seems to miss the purpose of the forum somewhat.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Beer of the Bass

[lurksalot]

I know little about the scientific measurements behind the the claims , but I am pretty sure the newness of lots of stuff subtly wears off from lots of new kit , sit in a chair , after a while it fits you better , wear some new shoes after a while they fit better , I am sure someone will debunk that with a very good scientific argument , but my arse sits better in my worn chair and my feet feel sooooo much better in my old shoes.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Jack' timestamp='1355265569' post='1896242']
PS - I can't speak for BFM, maybe he wasn't saying that.
[/quote]In fact, I was. Everyone's entitled to an opinion, but if you want to offer an expert opinion you first must become an expert. Like Vance Dickason. Or the guy who's name is directly below his on the masthead of AudioExpress magazine, and Speaker Builder magazine before that: Mine.
OTOH I studiously avoid offering technical advice on car forums, even though I drive one every day.

[quote]I know little about the scientific measurements behind the the claims , but I am pretty sure the newness of lots of stuff subtly wears off from lots of new kit , sit in a chair , after a while it fits you better , wear some new shoes after a while they fit better , I am sure someone will debunk that with a very good scientific argument , but my arse sits better in my worn chair and my feet feel sooooo much better in my old shoes.[/quote]Very unscientific, but also absolutely spot on.

[Phil Starr]

Hi Stevie thanks for the data. you can see compliance and hence Vas and fs changing as you'd expect but there is also a difference between mms and Qes between the two drivers. Were these measurements of two speakers one 'broken in' and one not? I've got an unused and a used deltalite here which I ordered at the same time and I thought out of curiosity that if I had time I would compare the two when I get round to building their ultimate cabs. If the variation (in mms for example) is down to manufacturing spread then I might need a bigger sample. How did you measure the parameters in your sample?

I share your frustration when anyone says 'believe me because I'm an expert', there's either evidence or there isn't. I don't expect people to have all they've read over the years to hand or to take all the measurements themselves but it should be possible to back up categorical statements with a bit of data or at least a reference or two.

I still disagree with you, I think speakers do change over time (bit surprising if they didn't) and that I have heard those changes with at least some speakers, your data isn't incompatible with that interpretation but it certainly doesn't confirm my belief either. I look forward to seeing the stuff you have from Dickason and when I get time I'll have a play around with your figures. Looks like Santa needs to bring me a new Cookbook.

Phil

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1355272098' post='1896345']
In fact, I was. Everyone's entitled to an opinion, but if you want to offer an expert opinion you first must become an expert. Like Vance Dickason. Or the guy who's name is directly below his on the masthead of AudioExpress magazine, and Speaker Builder magazine before that: Mine.
[/quote]

Sorry Bill, but argument from authority is on the naughty list:
[url="http://www.theskepticsguide.org/resources/logicalfallacies.aspx"]http://www.theskepti...lfallacies.aspx[/url]

Now I wouldn't claim to be an 'expert' but if people want to argue scientifically, they have to understand what science is, and the major methodological differences between proper scientific method, anecdotal evidence, and engineering solutions. So far on this thread there has been a load of waffly rubbish, some subjective anecdotes (nothing wrong with that but you have to recognise it for what it is) and some actual measurements based around a scientific theory of how loudspeakers work, provided by only ONE person. The measurements are one half of some science, but more measurements would be needed to do it that way - which those "arguing from authority" seem strangely reticent to provide. A shame. The other half is the theory.

It's easy to solve this argument more objectively, at least for the bass response, [b]if we accept that the theory is true[/b], and actually bother to LOOK AT IT! Which no-one arguing seems to have done either, at least not in any depth or with adequate explanation. So, assume the Thiele-Small model is true. Mmd (or we can use Mms), Cms, Re, Rms, Sd, Bl (and Le). Those are the fundamental parameters (not necessarily the ones you'd measure) that can't be completely described by each other. However Fs, Vas, Qes/ms are all functions of those parameters.
If we accept that material compliance can vary over time, easily demonstrated by flexing a piece of card, then we can vary that one parameter in the model and see what it does. WinISD can even do it for us to save having to do horrible maths. Just make a fictitious loudspeaker using only the fundamental parameters and let it fill in the gaps, then make another that differs only in Cms, let it fill in the gaps again, and see what happens. When I tried this, starting with a real speaker spec for my base parameters, as compliance increases the effect of the change becomes less and less. What this implies is that the effect of a change in Cms will vary not only dependent on the magnitude of the change, but that the absolute starting value is also important, ie how much suspension stiffness is limiting cone movement in the first place. This is pretty obvious really, when you think about it mechanically.

(Go back to the derived parameter definitions. Note that while Fs and Vas do indeed change in complementary directions, Vas is defined as proportional to Cms but Fs is inversely proportional to the square root of Cms. This is important because it means they can't totally balance each other out)

Note that in Stevie's measurements, Cms is not the only fundamental parameter to vary. But you can't assume they'd always vary in totally complementary fashion and doing so doesn't fit with the model as described. In a way, it's clear that if one or more of the fundamental parameters in the model can vary over time, they can't always just cancel out or they wouldn't be in the model as fundamental parameters in the first place!

In the real world? Most measurements Stevie references and provides seem to suggest it's fairly subtle, but subjective experiences here suggest otherwise, quite probably (and obviously) related to the Cms's original contribution to cone movement. Personally, I'm fairly sure I've heard it happening in some Deltalites, because it didn't really seem subtle at all and loose objects were certainly vibrating more later on than at the beginning. There's a limit to how much your ears can adapt! Though now I wish I'd had a mic up recording the process.
The other issue as mentioned elsewhere on the thread is the midrange - the T/S model doesn't deal with that.

So I'll carry on breaking in speakers if I'm building/testing a cab, and in all other situations I just wouldn't care!

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

While I deal with theory all the time I don't blndly accept it. I verify it by taking my own measurements, of both drivers and finished cabs before and after break-in. Those measurements verify that break in does exist and is audible. So, to go back to the original question posed by the OP, [i] Is there such a thing as a "playing in" period for a new speaker?[/i], the answer is yes. Over, and out.

[solo4652]

OP here, folks.

OK - so there may or may not be a "playing-in" period for a new speaker. Perhaps I should have asked something like: "I've just received my second Promethean combo following an apparent speaker failure in the first one after 45 minutes. Are there any sensible precautions I should take to "play in" the new one to help prevent another possible failure, or are such steps unnecessary?"

Edited December 12, 2012 by solo4652

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='solo4652' timestamp='1355303560' post='1896484']
OP here, folks.

OK - so there may or may not be a "playing-in" period for a new speaker. Perhaps I should have asked something like: "I've just received my second Promethean combo following an apparent speaker failure in the first one after 45 minutes. Are there any sensible precautions I should take to "play in" the new one to help prevent another possible failure, or are such steps unnecessary?"
[/quote]

Play it as hard as you can right away, if there is a flaw that will result in a failure, you want it to happen right away, within warranty and before you get super dependent on the individuality of that amp. Then you can replace it with same or different depending. If you find yourself eqing in some bass early on, just be aware later you might not need to, so don't necessarily count it as a limitation of the speaker as new.

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1355303989' post='1896493']
Play it as hard as you can right away, if there is a flaw that will result in a failure, you want it to happen right away, within warranty and before you get super dependent on the individuality of that amp. Then you can replace it with same or different depending. If you find yourself eqing in some bass early on, just be aware later you might not need to, so don't necessarily count it as a limitation of the speaker as new.
[/quote]

I would wrap this subject with this, the best answer to this question i've read so far.

I've never broken in a speaker with the 25Hz signal, always played it until breaking. Sometimes i took it straight to a gig, other to rehearsals. Honestly never noticed the tone changes but i believe they're there, they probably were disguised by the sound of a drummer playing next to me.

I'm just a bass player, not an expert but i'm also an engineer so i understand something about the mechanics of the materials and i believe that the material will in fact losen with time and use alowing for more cone excursion, this means that there will in fact be some increase on air being shifted, therefore also an increase on low end response.

Is this audible enough to have the cab broken in before giging?
- No, Just play the damn thing! The amp's EQ is there to shape your tone at any moment.

Is this of any importance to make a decision about buying/keeping new gear?
- In this mather i would play it safe and reserve my final judgement until after 2 or 3 gigs/rehearsals...


Cheers

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1355282022' post='1896384']
While I deal with theory all the time I don't blndly accept it. I verify it by taking my own measurements, of both drivers and finished cabs before and after break-in.
[/quote]

Indeed, and this discussion would be much richer if you shared any of those currently intangible measurements, indicating how much difference it can make! Or at least gave some expert insight into how T-S params like Cms and Rms tend to change in the real world, and the effect this would have in simulation...

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1355309520' post='1896614']
- No, Just play the damn thing! The amp's EQ is there to shape your tone at any moment.
Cheers
[/quote]
Agreed, which is exactly why I said
[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1355280857' post='1896383']
So I'll carry on breaking in speakers if I'm building/testing a cab, and in all other situations I just wouldn't care!
[/quote]

and I think most others have expressed this sentiment as well.
Of course interest in this is more than just academic when you're building a cab, and from a manufacturer's perspective, if the cab sounded noticeably weaker/harsher until broken in then it could have a negative impact on sales.

[alexclaber]

When I have some time and the weather is better I'll get some measurements of fresh vs broken-in woofers. I know I've heard the change very obviously and I know hundreds of customers have heard it too. As I've said previously, it isn't just the low frequency response that changes due to the shift in T/S parameters, it's also the midrange and treble response. If you've been involved in the design of cones, dustcaps and suspension then you'd know that seemingly tiny changes can make big differences in tone. The attached plots are the same driver, the first measured in the summer, the second measured in the winter - ignore the LF stuff because it wasn't set up for that, it's a midrange/treble response measurement. The lower temperature changes the cone and the suspension stiffness - and look what that does to the frequency response curve!

Edited December 12, 2012 by alexclaber

[EBS_freak]

I know of countless cabs that have been delivered unboxed, straight to the stage or the recording studio without any running in. I myself delivered some cabs to Tal when she was with Jeff Beck and those cabs were unwrapped infront of her. She didn't seem to care. Whilst the science may hold true, the reality is that I don't think the average (or not so average) end user really cares.

If it was that critical, I would imagine that the driver manufacturer themselves, or at least the cab manufacturer would do the running in for you... afterall, you only get to make a first impression about a cab once. If the cab does sound noticably different, then it would be worth the aforementioned third parties time to do something about it.

Just a thought.

[LawrenceH]

Hurrah! Well done Alex
What difference do you think is attributable to temp versus 'break-in' here? EDIT: assuming the driver was 'fresh' for the first measurement, realise this might not be the case!

Edited December 12, 2012 by LawrenceH

[alexclaber]

Both drivers were fresh, they're handmade samples - to quote the transducer designer we've been working with: "The first samples were measured when it was about 18 deg C outside; the second ones at 8-9 deg C. Things stiffen up a bit from lower temps and always give you a touch more extension on the top end. They’re built with the same parts, though…"

But it shows that it's not as simple as anyone claims!

I remember an incident on talkbass when someone was arguing about something tone related regarding bass cabs - it went on for a while and his opinion seemed like it should carry some weight, seeing as he was an experienced professional bassist. Then he mentioned that his hearing was completely screwed, to the point that even his hearing aids in it was way off how it had been in his youth, due to years of high SPL damage. He didn't seem to get the irony that he was being very forceful with his opinions on how something sounded yet he didn't have the sensory perception to analyse the sound accurately - like if I commented on David Hockney's massive recent exhibition without my glasses on.

Edited December 12, 2012 by alexclaber

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1355318832' post='1896824']
Both drivers were fresh, they're handmade samples - to quote the transducer designer we've been working with: "The first samples were measured when it was about 18 deg C outside; the second ones at 8-9 deg C. Things stiffen up a bit from lower temps and always give you a touch more extension on the top end. They’re built with the same parts, though…"

But it shows that it's not as simple as anyone claims!

I remember an incident on talkbass when someone was arguing about something tone related regarding bass cabs - it went on for a while and his opinion seemed like it should carry some weight, seeing as he was an experienced professional bassist. Then he mentioned that his hearing was completely screwed, to the point that even his hearing aids in it was way off how it had been in his youth, due to years of high SPL damage. He didn't seem to get the irony that he was being very forceful with his opinions on how something sounded yet he didn't have the sensory perception to analyse the sound accurately - like if I commented on David Hockney's massive recent exhibition without my glasses on.
[/quote]

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1355317189' post='1896794']
The attached plots are the same driver, the first measured in the summer, the second measured in the winter - ignore the LF stuff because it wasn't set up for that, it's a midrange/treble response measurement. The lower temperature changes the cone and the suspension stiffness - and look what that does to the frequency response curve!
[/quote]If I'm doing measurements in the spring or fall I take the driver/cab inside the house the night before, rather than leave them in my unheated shop. There's a significant difference between a measurement of gear that's at room temperature versus even 60F, let alone colder than that. I learned that the hard way measuring a new HL10c driver that I'd left out in the shop, where the ambient dropped to 35F overnight. Spec'd at 44Hz, it measured cold at 70Hz.
[quote]If it was that critical, I would imagine that the driver manufacturer themselves, or at least the cab manufacturer would do the running in for you...[/quote]Break in takes time, time is money.

[alexclaber]

If anyone doubts that speakers change a lot due to mechanical parameters shifting, notice how different your car stereo sounds when you've just de-iced the car compared to half an hour into the journey with the heaters on full blast. There's a big change in bass response! I wonder how well boot-mounted subwoofers work in the winter (mind is in the rear footwell!)?

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1355319269' post='1896842']
Break in takes time, time is money.
[/quote]

Agreed. But if it was really critical, it would be par for the course.

This thread is interesting. I've learn I also need to change my band's contract. "We refuse to play at any other temperature apart from 20°C as any variance in temperature may lead to substandard speaker performance."

Those buskers must be f**ked this time of year.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1355319538' post='1896850']
If anyone doubts that speakers change a lot due to mechanical parameters shifting, notice how different your car stereo sounds when you've just de-iced the car compared to half an hour into the journey with the heaters on full blast. There's a big change in bass response! I wonder how well boot-mounted subwoofers work in the winter (mind is in the rear footwell!)?
[/quote]

I think that's not the easiest example, since half an hour into a journey road surface/engine noise is going to be pretty different!
Thinking about your graph above I'd guess the off-axis response might alter even more drastically for a given position as changes in stiffness altered break-up behaviour etc. Could be a bigger deal in guitar speakers.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1355319638' post='1896851']
Agreed. But if it was really critical, it would be par for the course.
[/quote]

90% of people pay for the name badge and nothing else. No point in investing money in the rest as a big player. The small players just advise some break in tones on their website to cover those who work with their ears. I got mine broken in by renting them as backline for a local festival.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1355320104' post='1896869']
90% of people pay for the name badge and nothing else. No point in investing money in the rest as a big player. The small players just advise some break in tones on their website to cover those who work with their ears. I got mine broken in by renting them as backline for a local festival.
[/quote]

I hope it was at room temperature.

[stingrayPete1977]

Maybe we should have a winter rig made of old worn out cabs?

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Jack' timestamp='1355265569' post='1896242']
On this topic, yes. I'm a stockman and so I'd expect that I know more about certain animals than you. Whatever you do professionally you're probably better at and more knowledgeable than me. As another example, I'm a pretty highly qualified first aider and emergency medic as part of my job so maybe I know more about that than you do, unless you're a nurse, doctor, paramedic or otherwise more highly trained than me, in which case not.

If we were discussing which amp was best for metal in small pubs, which is a subjective and opinionated subject I'd think pretty much everyone was welcome, but I'd give more credence to the opinions of those who were playing in metal bands in small pubs and who'd used a variety of amps. What would a jazz bassist who's never left his bedroom know? For that matter what would a classically trained pianist know? Or a race car driver? Why is listening to a veteran professional (who you'd rightly or wrongly assume to be somewhat of an expert) a bad thing?

[/quote]

This is an alarmingly sensible post, which completely fails to achieve arrogance or confrontation, and utterly misses the opportunity to score cheap points.

I must ask my namesake to modify his post to better fit in with the overall 'tone' of this topic.

[garythebass]

Personally, I think the theory behind it makes sense, but that's as far as it goes as I'm no expert.

If there are even small changes in the speaker, I would expect a larger change to be heard in a cab, and the better the cab design, the more the perceived change. But that's just in my humble and uninformed opinion.

I intend to break in my new cab because what will it cost me? Download a sine wave - free; plug in my gear - free; run it while I'm out at work - free. So just a few minutes of my time in real terms. Less than reading this thread, that's for sure!

What will it cost me if I don't break in my cab? [i]Potentially [/i]a cab that, at least for a while, won't sound as good as it should, and based on that, possibly also a bit of buyers' remorse.

I'm all for open debate on these things, and find hearing both sides interesting, but what has annoyed me slightly about this thread is that some parts of it are not in the normal excellent spirit of this forum.

I think it's a bit unfair to accuse Bill, Alex or Mr Baer of trying to push their products, since none of them, to my knowledge, is offering a break-in service or selling sine-waves/test equipment. They are [color=#222222]merely [/color]giving their opinion on what they believe will benefit us if we invest in new gear. If break-in is just 'snake oil', no-one is hurt and no-one loses out.

Although, as I am writing this, I notice that some amusingly flippant replies are coming in, so perhaps normal good-spirited banter has returned!