New speaker "playing in" period?

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1355320515' post='1896874']
Maybe we should have a winter rig made of old worn out cabs?
[/quote]

Wrap them in blankets... or just get some Ashdown cabs for a similar tone.

Mind you, being Ashdown, they will probably catch fire... hang on... self temperature regulating cabs! They may well just be on to something there!

Edited December 12, 2012 by EBS_freak

[stingrayPete1977]

The time people are spending breaking in cabs could be spent eating a pie, practicing a tricky riff or picking their nose all of which I have probably done whilst my new cabs sit dormant waiting for their first gig

Lets be serious just for a moment, someone playing a p bass with flats through an ashdown rig compared to ebs freak playing his gb bass through an ebs rig is going to be 1000000 times more different than anything breaking the speaker in will do.

Edited December 12, 2012 by stingrayPete1977

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1355321353' post='1896896']
The time people are spending breaking in cabs could be spent eating a pie, practicing a tricky riff or picking their nose all of which I have probably done whilst my new cabs sit dormant waiting for their first gig
[/quote]

The shame of the audience shouting out "sh1ttonePete1977" didn't get you down?

Ah that's right. It's because you were going through the PA.

Shame on that soundguy not breaking in his PA cabs.

Edited December 12, 2012 by EBS_freak

[stingrayPete1977]

He was a pie eating nose picking w***er!

[LawrenceH]

I apologise profusely and unreservedly if I've upset the delicate sensibilities of any bass player. Kisses xx

[stevie]

Me too. We know how delicate and sensitive they all are really.

[JTUK]

I don't know why people are putting such great store on input from various people.
If they make cabs..then you either like the sound of it..and the look of it or you don't..
Otherwise, you are just buying whatever spiel they want to come out with.
And if you can't equate thosed stats or spec with what you hear, then that is a pretty dumb way of buying things as far as I can see....

But there you go

[stevie]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1355320694' post='1896881']
This is an alarmingly sensible post, which completely fails to achieve arrogance or confrontation, and utterly misses the opportunity to score cheap points.

I must ask my namesake to modify his post to better fit in with the overall 'tone' of this topic.
[/quote]

It's an honest post. Jack hasn't achieved the level of cynicism and distrust of authority and 'experts' that some of us have.

[Ghost_Bass]

I've been buying my latest cabs online, the courier does an excelent job in breaking them in during transport, no sine wave needed!

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited February 16, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[gjones]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1355212660' post='1895331']
Is this one still going? It must be a record!
[/quote]

Is this one still going? It must be a record!

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1355328056' post='1896999']
Is this one still going? It must be a record!
[/quote]
I think it's awesome. Since it's already deviated into maple v rosewood and back again, I think the REAL question is, which is best?
1. Mark King playing fingerstyle on a maple-boarded ash-bodied Ray through a 100 watt all-valve amp into a broken-in BF Super 12, or
2. Flea playing slap on a rosewood-boarded modulus through a 300 watt class D head into a fresh Baer ML-212.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1355328056' post='1896999']


Is this one still going? It must be a record!
[/quote]
Its record that just has a looped noise at 25hz on it, parp!

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1355328430' post='1897009']

I think it's awesome. Since it's already deviated into maple v rosewood and back again, I think the REAL question is, which is best?
1. Mark King playing fingerstyle on a maple-boarded ash-bodied Ray through a 100 watt all-valve amp into a broken-in BF Super 12, or
2. Flea playing slap on a rosewood-boarded modulus through a 300 watt class D head into a fresh Baer ML-212.
[/quote]
Always flea

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1355328430' post='1897009']
I think the REAL question is, which is best?
1. Mark King playing fingerstyle on a maple-boarded ash-bodied Ray through a 100 watt all-valve amp into a broken-in BF Super 12, or
2. Flea playing slap on a rosewood-boarded modulus through a 300 watt class D head into a fresh Baer ML-212.
[/quote]

Neither

[stevie]

It's only 7 pages, gjones - we've only just started. There's a thread on Peavey T-40 basses that's up to 14 pages already. Bass players don't do things by halves, you know.

Edit: Oops, I just got bumped up to page 8.....

Edited December 12, 2012 by stevie

[JTUK]

yep... beats me how anyone thinks Flea sounds good !!!

[4 Strings]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1355325601' post='1896956'] I don't know why people are putting such great store on input from various people. If they make cabs..then you either like the sound of it..and the look of it or you don't.. Otherwise, you are just buying whatever spiel they want to come out with. And if you can't equate thosed stats or spec with what you hear, then that is a pretty dumb way of buying things as far as I can see.... But there you go [/quote]

To be fair, I nearly sent my cabs back, 'twasn't until I did the sine wave thing and used them for a month or so did I become satisfied. If you now say 'I have become used to them' etc then we're back to post 20 something.

[EBS_freak]

Not suggesting there wasn't a change because I do believe there is a change after running your speakers in... but maybe your ears got used to them over time?

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1355328430' post='1897009']
I think it's awesome. Since it's already deviated into maple v rosewood and back again, I think the REAL question is, which is best?
1. Mark King playing fingerstyle on a maple-boarded ash-bodied Ray through a 100 watt all-valve amp into a broken-in BF Super 12, or
2. Flea playing slap on a rosewood-boarded modulus through a 300 watt class D head into a fresh Baer ML-212.
[/quote]

Neither, it'll always be Larry Graham on both accounts! The real question is :" Would he sound the same if dressed in black instead of white?!!"

[LawrenceH]

Larry Graham is outside the operational parameters of the model. MK v Flea. Gun to head. If you don't answer hell is an eternity of whichever one you don't want it to be most...

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1355330905' post='1897066']
Larry Graham is outside the operational parameters of the model. MK v Flea. Gun to head. If you don't answer hell is an eternity of whichever one you don't want it to be most...
[/quote]



In that case the one i find worse is Tal...

[JTUK]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1355330188' post='1897045']
To be fair, I nearly sent my cabs back, 'twasn't until I did the sine wave thing and used them for a month or so did I become satisfied. If you now say 'I have become used to them' etc then we're back to post 20 something.
[/quote]

sure.. I think you also have to 'get' how they work and that can take a bit of time but the promise needs to be there from the off...
Myself, I wouldn't judge that harshly a cab on the first outing...I'd put it down to needing to work on it...
but the fundementals have to be there.

[stevie]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1355273444' post='1896364']
Hi Stevie thanks for the data. you can see compliance and hence Vas and fs changing as you'd expect but there is also a difference between mms and Qes between the two drivers. Were these measurements of two speakers one 'broken in' and one not? I've got an unused and a used deltalite here which I ordered at the same time and I thought out of curiosity that if I had time I would compare the two when I get round to building their ultimate cabs. If the variation (in mms for example) is down to manufacturing spread then I might need a bigger sample. How did you measure the parameters in your sample?
[/quote]

You’re welcome. I took the measurements with Liberty Audiosuite using the same driver (brand new in a sealed box), running it in for 4 hours in free air to get the second set of data. It would probably have been more accurate if I'd measured several times. I take your point about the change in mms, although it's clearly not affected the result.

Another independent set of measurements would be very useful. Even if there are variations between your drivers, I’d be very surprised if you didn’t get the same results as I did.

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1355273444' post='1896364']
I share your frustration when anyone says 'believe me because I'm an expert', there's either evidence or there isn't.
[/quote]

Indeed.

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1355273444' post='1896364']
I still disagree with you, I think speakers do change over time (bit surprising if they didn't) and that I have heard those changes with at least some speakers, your data isn't incompatible with that interpretation but it certainly doesn't confirm my belief either.
[/quote]

I don’t disagree that speakers change over time. I was just commenting that the changes are slow because of the stability of the materials available nowadays. There was quite an interesting interview in Soundstage Magazine with Paul Barton the designer and owner of PSB in which he talks about break-in and aging (amongst many other things). Interestingly, when he re-measured one of his speakers ten-years after it was built, the deviation from the original measurements was no more than 1/4dB.

This is what he says:

“Finally, and perhaps most controversially, Barton talks about the supposed break-in effect of components that has become so popular in audio today. Break-in refers to running components for a long time (sometimes hundreds of hours) to the point where their components "settle" into their proper operating mode. Barton doesn’t doubt that some components do change subtly, but he thinks that the major improvements people think they’re hearing aren’t in the components at all. Barton doesn’t doubt that people are hearing these changes, but thinks that what they’re hearing is actually brain break-in.

Barton has examined his own speakers to test this. He has taken a Stratus Gold loudspeaker, built and measured some ten years ago, and re-measured it today. The deviation is slight, perhaps 1/4dB at most. Although that deviation can possibly be heard, it is certainly not a huge difference that one may attest to hearing. Instead, Barton surmises that the difference in sound that people are hearing over time is conditioning of the brain. He cites experiments done with sight that indicate the brain can accommodate for enormous changes fairly quickly and certainly within the hundreds of hours that audiophiles claim changes occur in.

Could this apply to hearing, too? Barton thinks that more often than not, what happens is that the changes in perceived sound that are attributed to component break-in are simply the brain becoming accustomed to the sound. He warns listeners not to fool themselves.”

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1355273444' post='1896364']
I look forward to seeing the stuff you have from Dickason and when I get time I'll have a play around with your figures. Looks like Santa needs to bring me a new Cookbook.
[/quote]

Nearly done it. It’s not as easy as cut n' paste.

[stevie]

Here you go, Phil. This is the relevant section from Vance Dickason's Loudspeaker Design Cookbook.

"8.20 Break-in

Prior to testing, all cone speakers should be broken in. However, the reason for doing this is not as obvious as you might imagine. While the majority of woofers will undergo a "loosening" of the suspension system after five to ten hours of play, this has very little effect on the Thiele/Small parameters used for developing box volumes. Fig. 8 shows a free-air impedance measurement comparison of a 6.5” Peerless woofer right out of the box to the same woofer after 12 hours of break-in using a sine wave generator (at 25 Hz) and amplifier. Importing this data (along with the delta compliance curves also made before and after break-in) into the LinearX Leap Software yielded the parameter summary given in Table 8.1.

TABLE 8.1

BEFORE AFTER
F0 49.9Hz 44.5Hz
Qms 2.11 1.97
Qes 0.44 0.39
Qts 0.37 0.33
VAS 16.8 l 21.6 l

At first glance it appears that there has been a substantial shift in parameters with at least an 11% decrease in the driver’s resonance frequency. However, when these parameters are used to create box simulations the answer is obvious. Figure 8.2 shows the comparison of the before and after parameter sets used to create both a sealed and a vented box computer simulation. Differences in those box simulations are shown in Table 8.2.

As can be seen, the changes in box performance are trivial. The reason this occurs is that the FS/Qts ratios remain constant before and after break-in. In the case of this woofer, FS/Qts before break-in was 136.79 and after break-in 136.72, nearly the same. This is true for all woofers. Many times different samples of the same model will “appear” to have entirely different T/S parameter sets, when in reality they will provide identical box performance. If you suspect that two samples are very different because the parameter set is not identical or close in the various parameter values, check the FS/Qts ratios or perform a computer box simulation in the same box volume with the different data sets. This will immediately tell you if the woofers really are the same or if something important has changed.

So why bother to break in drivers prior to testing? To assure that a valid test sample is being used. If a bad voice coil rub or poorly glued surround or spider are going to be a problem, banging the driver around with a reasonable amount of voltage at 25Hz for 12 hours should reveal the flaw. There is no sense in proceeding to design a project if the woofer is not a representative sample."