Are Stingrays the new Warwicks, price wise?

[Rumple]

True, I'd buy a second hand US one rather then a new Sterling, maybe it's just a combination of the economic climate and supply outnumbering demand.

[Rumple]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1354688110' post='1889095']
I've seen a couple of PreEB rays go for 700 quid in NZ
[/quote]

Blimey, I'd have asked my sister to bid on those if I'd known, on Trade Me I assume?

[drTStingray]

A factor of the economy I guess - I read about NOS Fender Custom Shop basses being sold at Guitar Centre for less than half price, along with other bargains. This affects all musical instruments.

On the run up to Christmas, there are possibly more people wanting to sell secondhand stuff quickly to free up funds. The prices will fluctuate I guess as a result. My son was after a tweed case for his Mexican Telecaster - found a Mexican Strat complete with a tweed case on Ebay for £250 - buying it, keeping the case and selling the Strat on in a gig bag would have been a superb deal - but just goes to show what's out there.

'Back in the day' I tried to sell an Acoustic 371 set up, and eventually had to accept a ridiculously low price for it - OK it was a long time ago and pre Ebay but still galling - how I wish I still had it. The one thing I had people falling over to buy was my pre-EB Stingray at the time, and I guess the same would be true now.

[Dingus]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1354711846' post='1889401']
A factor of the economy I guess - I read about NOS Fender Custom Shop basses being sold at Guitar Centre for less than half price, along with other bargains. This affects all musical instruments.

On the run up to Christmas, there are possibly more people wanting to sell secondhand stuff quickly to free up funds. The prices will fluctuate I guess as a result. My son was after a tweed case for his Mexican Telecaster - found a Mexican Strat complete with a tweed case on Ebay for £250 - buying it, keeping the case and selling the Strat on in a gig bag would have been a superb deal - but just goes to show what's out there.

'Back in the day' I tried to sell an Acoustic 371 set up, and eventually had to accept a ridiculously low price for it - OK it was a long time ago and pre Ebay but still galling - how I wish I still had it. The one thing I had people falling over to buy was my pre-EB Stingray at the time, and I guess the same would be true now.
[/quote]

I've seen loads of EBMM Musiman basses with massive discounts in Guitar Centre in recent years , particulaly the Special Editions / Annivesary models . Guitar Centre have such muscle as a retailer in the USA they can pretty much do what they like , and manufacturers and customers can either like it or lump it . Like retailers everywhere , they have changed their strategy of what kind of stock they keep and how they sell it . They don't sell stuff off cheap because they are desperate , they sell it that price because in the scheme of things that is what works out most profitable , unlikely as that may sound . They turn dead stock back into cash to invest in new stock that will sell better . Guitar Centre are able to negotiate wickedly good prices with their suppliers by virtue of the sheer volume of business they can offer and have the upper hand in that respect .

[drTStingray]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1354714207' post='1889449']
I've seen loads of EBMM Musiman basses with massive discounts in Guitar Centre in recent years , particulaly the Special Editions / Annivesary models[/quote]

Yes, me too - the point I was making relates to the used market where at least some of them (if not most of them) command a higher price. On those being sold off cheap, I think it depends on the model - the recent PDN run (mahogany/birds eye roasted maple necks etc) seems to have been over-subscribed, as were some of the other ones. But this is true of many manufacturers.

You are right regarding Guitar Centre and sheer volume - many manufacturers have so much tied in with them there would likely be a problem if ever they went bust.

Edited December 5, 2012 by drTStingray

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1354703628' post='1889258']
I couldn't buy a bass called 'Ex-Factor'
[/quote]

There's always the "Key-Factor"....

[Dingus]

The reality of anything relating to market value is that[i] [u]things are worth what you can get for them [/u][/i], plain and simple . My advice to anyone investing in basses is to always be realistic ( or even pessemistic ) about what you will ever get back for them if you decide to sell them . I am frequently impressed by many peoples unrealistic evaluation of what their equipment is worth on the secondhand market , and have seen many deluded sellers in my time . Not so much on Basschat , where I find most peoples valuation of what they are selling to be very realistic and indeed often a bit too reasonably priced , but in the outside world usually the less knowledgeble a seller is the more they want for things . If you need to realise the value of your investment and cash in then you will be forced to accept harsh reality . If folks are selling Stingrays for £600-700 then you will be hard pressed to get much more for one unless it is something really special , even if it is dead mint . You might get a bit more , but you would be very lucky to get over a grand in any circumstances except maybe for a Classic in unplayed condition . Even the newer two pickup Rays aren't fetching much . I have no vested interest in any of this - I haven't bought a used bass for more than fifteen years when I think about it - but I have bought and sold a great many basses in my time and I must confess I love a good guitar deal more than most things , kind of like a jazz -funk David Dickinson . Better go top up my tan ...

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1354730289' post='1889738']
The reality of anything relating to market value is that[i] [u]things are worth what you can get for them [/u][/i], plain and simple . My advice to anyone investing in basses is to always be realistic ( or even pessemistic ) about what you will ever get back for them if you decide to sell them . I am frequently impressed by many peoples unrealistic evaluation of what their equipment is worth on the secondhand market , and have seen many deluded sellers in my time . Not so much on Basschat , where I find most peoples valuation of what they are selling to be very realistic and indeed often a bit too reasonably priced , but in the outside world usually the less knowledgeble a seller is the more they want for things . If you need to realise the value of your investment and cash in then you will be forced to accept harsh reality . If folks are selling Stingrays for £600-700 then you will be hard pressed to get much more for one unless it is something really special , even if it is dead mint . You might get a bit more , but you would be very lucky to get over a grand in any circumstances except maybe for a Classic in unplayed condition . Even the newer two pickup Rays aren't fetching much . I have no vested interest in any of this - I haven't bought a used bass for more than fifteen years when I think about it - but I have bought and sold a great many basses in my time and I must confess I love a good guitar deal more than most things , kind of like a jazz -funk David Dickinson . Better go top up my tan ...
[/quote] expanding on that- things are worth what the market pays yes, but a fair bit of the money spent, esp in the recession is recycled money made from folk selling bass x to buy bass y.
But if there is less new money coming into the system the price something will sell for will drop- which in turn will discourage the kinda "try something new sales", if you are going to take a 600 loss on something rather than a 300 that will affect if you are going to sell to feed GAS. Leading to less money being recycled about.
Now anyone wanna buy my bass?

[Dingus]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1354732041' post='1889783']
expanding on that- things are worth what the market pays yes, but a fair bit of the money spent, esp in the recession is recycled money made from folk selling bass x to buy bass y.
But if there is less new money coming into the system the price something will sell for will drop- which in turn will discourage the kinda "try something new sales", if you are going to take a 600 loss on something rather than a 300 that will affect if you are going to sell to feed GAS. Leading to less money being recycled about.
Now anyone wanna buy my bass?
[/quote]

That's true , but you have to add into the equation the impetus that the instinct towards aquisition gives the market . Those people participating in the marketplace have an inclination towards continued spending in the hope of attaining satisfaction and so will find new money to add into circulation . Just like most football clubs are allegedly 3-5 players short of the squad they need to be successful , so are bass players usually one bass purchease away from the contentment which has so far eluded them . Even if the entire economic system of the developed world collapses I am sure that bass players will find a way to keep spending , even if we are reduced to trying to swap a goat for whatever shiny bauble is tormenting us with unsatiated gear lust .

Edited December 6, 2012 by Dingus

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1354733052' post='1889813']
That's true , but you have to add into the equation the impetus that the instinct towards aquisition gives the market . Those people participating in the marketplace have an inclination towards continued spending in the hope of attaining satisfaction and so will find new money to add into circulation . Just like most football clubs are allegedly 3-5 players short of the squad they need to be successful , so are bass players usually one bass purchease away from the contentment which has so far eluded them . Even if the entire economic system of the developed world collapses I am sure that bass players will find a way to keep spending , even if we are reduced to trying to swap a goat for whatever shiny bauble is tormenting us with unsatiated gear lust .
[/quote] can you make gut strings from goat intestines? get enough goats and then that could be a real investment- the end of the worlds equivalent to a pre CBS fender

[Musicman20]

I'd guess that in 3-5 years the prices might take a turn with both Warwick and Musicman. Basschat also seems to be quite harsh on second hand prices...very low for some items. I've seen people sell Bongo's for very close to what they pay new but that involved using the EBMM forum and dealing with fanatics so they tend to pay close to the value.

[Dingus]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1354735022' post='1889847']
I'd guess that in 3-5 years the prices might take a turn with both Warwick and Musicman. Basschat also seems to be quite harsh on second hand prices...very low for some items. I've seen people sell Bongo's for very close to what they pay new but that involved using the EBMM forum and dealing with fanatics so they tend to pay close to the value.
[/quote]

One wonders what might happen if folks from the EBMM forum started looking on Bassschat , where you rightly point out , things can often be had for bargain prices . I've seen Bongo Basses for silly money on this site ( silly cheap , that is ) and the Stingrays we already know about . I would in no way see any of this as a slight on the quality or desirability of EBMM instruments - on the plus side there will always be a certain demand for these basses regardless of whatever trends come and go - but the sheer quantity on the secondhand market will always keep a ceiling on the secondhand price . In the case of the Bongo the fact that it is a design which polarises opinion keeps a lid on used prices . I'm a big fan of them myself , but the wider bass playing public are not on the whole as enthusiastic as they might be .

Edited December 6, 2012 by Dingus

[Black Coffee]

Is there any fun in having a bottomless pit of unlimited money to feed the need to expand the bass stable?

Regarding prices on basses, I dont think Warwick and Stingray are in the window alone here on price. Rickenbacker are falling in price for new models. Several years ago when I dabbled in three different Rics in a nine month spendingasm the tag was £1850 ish for a new 4003. You could get a new one now if you do a bit of research for about £1500
I have to say that over the years I have lost a considerable amount of cash on buying and selling basses; lets be honest - who hasnt. But; I have had a blast of a time playing some beautiful basses and don't regret any that I have sold except one Stingray 5 that was better than even the 25th anniversary SR I had for a spell.
It's a fact of life at present that all goods are worth only what someone is prepared to pay for them, not a penny more.
Going back to my first line in the post - unlimited cash would take the fun out of buying, playing, looking, lusting, selling, buying, playing etc etc etc and on and on. If you peak without the experience of ogling and drooling over other kit for months before getting your eager mits around its neck there's no fun and no anticipation and excitement.
This philosophy has worked for 25 years until now when I bought a really expensive bass (£3000 roughly) and an unanticipated incident meant I needed cash in a hurry and now I can't sell it because it's so much that the number of people with a larger amount of disposable dosh is smaller than the collective who would deal in smaller amounts.
As a breed, bass players have GAS. GAS is infectious and it is a lifelong affliction. GAS will get your pulse rate up, and make you ignore your wife (much to her frustration)while she is asking you where the car keys are while you read the small text about the 18v preamp and the abalone fretmarkers. GAS is the reason why the basschat forum exists and in answer to the original question - is why the SR is the new Warwick pricewise.

[pete.young]

I think some of you have short memories - 3 or 4 years ago there were several decent 4-string Stingrays going in this forum for 500 - 600 quid and people were bemoaning the fact at the time.

At the moment things seem to have picked up a bit.

I can't imagine that the new Sterlings are affecting anything, other than the prices of OLP MM2 and MM3 s. There's really no comparison between the new Sterlings and a proper US Musicman. The old original Sterlings, on the other hand, seem just as sought-after.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Rumple' timestamp='1354705493' post='1889286']
Blimey, I'd have asked my sister to bid on those if I'd known, on Trade Me I assume?
[/quote]
Yes, but you'll need to organise a direct bank-to-bank transfer. Trademe doesn't offer paypal although there is sometimes a service that will accept credit card payments but no obligation on the seller to offer it. Otherwise cash on collection.

You'll also need to organise shipping from NZ which is likely to be pricey. Otherwise I would have jumped on a few item's I've seen on BC recently.

If you get screwed over, Trademe doesn't have a dispute resolution process like Ebay, they'll just work to establish there was bad faith on the part of the seller and notify the police on your behalf. After that, you will need to take matters forward directly.

I got screwed over for $600 on a laptop three years ago, had to wait a year for the guy to go to trial and he was eventually found guilty and ordered to pay me back. Although I only ever received one payment of $50 before he was then charged and tried on 22 counts of GST fraud, fined $30,000 and sentanced to 18 months in jail.

[url="http://www.bayofplentytimes.co.nz/news/director-jailed-over-false-claims/1217278/"]http://www.bayofplen...claims/1217278/[/url]

I haven't recieved anything since then...although he is due to be released next month.

[drTStingray]

The other thing to remember is that the market is not made up generally of people who are enthusiastic enough to post on a forum like this. Manufacturers forums tend to attract enthusiasts.

However there is a large bulk of players who just own one bass - probably starting with an entry level copy and possibly aspiring to something better. Many never get past the next one above budget level (eg mexican Fender or SBMM). This large chunk of people iswhat sells - there is only a certain proportion of players who are serious enough to want to invest in a bass over, say £1000 - and then only a proportion of those who catch the GAS bug and end up with 20 Musicman basses or Fenders etc (there's a guy on the Musicman forum with over 250).

Although all of the market is no doubt being squeezed, I think it likely that the upper end is taking the biggest hit in the current economic climate.

Prices do fluctuate, but if £750 is about the long term average rate for a used Ray, seeing basses sold at £600, whilst others go for £900, just demonstrates statistical fluctuation around an average. Christmas does have an affect - on prices for a whole range of goods.

So how are Fender prices holding up?? I mentioned the giveaway Custom Shop prices, I believe already. I have seen standard mexican Fenders for £200 ish on Ebay, whereas they are £500 odd new. I suspect that across the whole range of makes, prices are currently at a low level.

Edited December 6, 2012 by drTStingray

[RandomBass]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1354662168' post='1888981']
Though I guess they go in and out of fashion.
[/quote]
I wonder if Fender have succumbed to this over the years? Or are they immune because of their 'elder statesman' status? My knowledge of their history is limited.

[Rumple]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1354743443' post='1890001']
.

I got screwed over for $600 on a laptop three years ago
[/quote]

That's must really hurt knowing you have been intentionally conned and there's very little you can do about it, a friend of mine had a similar experience decades ago when he foolishly took a cheque for payment on a car that bounced, the guy got taken to court and charged but claimed he was unable to pay back the money and had no job so the court ordered him to pay it back at £50 a month, the cheque was for £5k!

My sister lives in Christchurch and I have got her to bid on a couple of basses in the past, nothing serious just if I happened to spot something that seemed cheap and near a time I was going over or she was coming home for a visit, not looked on there in ages.

[risingson]

Did a very good deal for my Stingray 5 with our very own Gusto recently, the bass is almost brand spanking new and it's the 2010 model with the filtered series mode coil tap which was a bit of a revelation for me as I don't use my Ray for the brutal highs that it can be known for! Really happy with it, and yes I've spotted one or two absolute steals in the FS section recently.

[Jack]

The point has already been made but I agree that there are just too many Rays on the market. For a 'proper' bass, it's actually fairly cheap and so there are loads of people buying new which means there are loads of people selling second hand afterwards.

[mtroun]

My take on it (as a Stingray owner) is both Warwicks and Musicman have taken the hit on prices recently because of the rise of the boutique bass. Before the widespread adoption of the internet, most bass playing folks would have only really seen Fender basses. Musicman and Warwick basses (along with Wal, Spector, Status, Pedulla, Alembic etc) were generally quite rare and spectacular to the average music fan and hard to come by in the UK. All of these brands have had at various times had well-known players (Flea particularly influenced Musicman sales in the 90s) playing them and they had a sense of 'other' to punters.

What the Bass Centre, Bass Gallery and now Bassdirect have done is introduce brands to the consciousness of players and gradually into mainstream acceptance. I notice that the Bass Gallery used to have far more Warwicks and Stingrays because they were popular with pros in the 90s/00s. More recently the arrival of Roscoe, Dingwall, Nordy, MTD etc into the consciousness of players (particularly with Talkbass and Basschat increasing the hype) has made Musicman and Warwick seem far less exotic.

I would agree with some that Warwick shot themselves in the foot by turning into a massive company and it seems pros have generally moved on from the Warwick fad, at least in the UK. Music Man are just keeping on keeping on I suppose. I'd say a lot of younger bass players still aspire to play a Stingray because they represent a certain quality but it just so happens that the used market is over saturated with people moving on from their Rays. I certainly find mine a little bit frustrating because I've played other basses which can do lower action and weigh a lot less but it's a solid, professional-feeling bass and let's face it, the majority of players aren't looking for a high-performance instrument.

As a footnote, Wals went completely out of fashion until Justin Chancellor repopularised them. I'm waiting for Jaydees to suddenly massively increase in value!

[stingrayPete1977]

It's surprising how many boutique bass users have come back though, I have started to notice a few ray 5s in the places all the fancy brands had a hold in, big shows and big profile session gigs, not so much 4s but I think the 5 is here to stay in those circles.

Edited December 6, 2012 by stingrayPete1977

[Prime_BASS]

Personally I feel it a sign of the times. Nothing seems to be fetching prices they could have fetched a year or so ago. Although the Stingrays have fluctuated between 600-900£ in the last 2 or so years.

Also the warwick joke is a bit poor, I know that the double $ corvettes don't seem to be fetching a great deal, but until bolt on thumb 4's are under £600 used then Ithink a lot of the Warwick stuff is selling at greater prices than EBMM.

Sandberg's California series seem to hold their value at the minute.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1354829410' post='1891087']
Personally I feel it a sign of the times. Nothing seems to be fetching prices they could have fetched a year or so ago. Although the Stingrays have fluctuated between 600-900£ in the last 2 or so years.

Also the warwick joke is a bit poor, I know that the double $ corvettes don't seem to be fetching a great deal, but until bolt on thumb 4's are under £600 used then Ithink a lot of the Warwick stuff is advertised at greater prices than EBMM.

Sandberg's California series seem to hold their value at the minute.
[/quote]
Fixed

[drTStingray]

It's a sign of the economy - you only have to look at the silly prices people are bidding on Fenders - eg 17 bids on a Road Worn Jazz, and it's got to £175. 3 bids on an American standard Jazz - and it's reached £56. Loads of new Custom Shop stuff at half price. The market simply goes up and down.

Edited December 6, 2012 by drTStingray