Are Stingrays the new Warwicks, price wise?

[stingrayPete1977]

As much as fender fans would deny it obviously Leo knew what niggles needed getting rid of when he designed it so things like the bit of scratchplate that always snaps off p basses was addressed right away with a big chunk of chrome that's going no where for example.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1355083854' post='1893881'] As much as fender fans would deny it obviously Leo knew what niggles needed getting rid of when he designed it so things like the bit of scratchplate that always snaps off p basses was addressed right away with a big chunk of chrome that's going no where for example. [/quote]

As in Jazz basses?

[Musicman20]

The P is great, the J is great (but not as comfy IMO) then the Ray steals the show. Perfect thumb anchor, massive tone, stunning ergonomics.

I love Fender basses but an EBMM to me is the pinnacle for my tastes, and I've played a fair few much more expensive instruments (including Sadowsky's which seem very bland and expensive for what they charge).

[4 Strings]

was being facetious about the chunk of chrome.

I'm a Stingray devotee, P seems a little flimsy and tinpot after playing a Stingray for a while. A appreciate the qualities of a good Jazz but just can't get on with them myself. Sound and ergonomics of a 'Ray is what and all I need.

(Nothing wrong with a P, classic design and I have two, but improved with the Stingray).

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1355093522' post='1894039']
was being facetious about the chunk of chrome.

I'm a Stingray devotee, P seems a little flimsy and tinpot after playing a Stingray for a while. A appreciate the qualities of a good Jazz but just can't get on with them myself. Sound and ergonomics of a 'Ray is what and all I need.

(Nothing wrong with a P, classic design and I have two, but improved with the Stingray).
[/quote] and again with the G&L L1000

[stingrayPete1977]

I'm not a massive fender fan nor an ebmm fan boy but tbf to sterling ball he has added some features that maybe Leo would of over time and with extra funding ie contoured bodies, 6 bolt neck, wheel of fortune truss rod adjustment (best invention in the past 30 years on a bass?) Flip out battery box etc yet most people say they can't tell the difference from early pre eb versions which is good as it shows a steady improvement, what have fender done? Reissues all with the same niggles and a high mass bridge which 12 threads each 7 pages long tell us does nothing anyway The Fender fans will tell us it's because the p and j are perfect and always were but it's why people often site the ray as a more solid and pro feeling bass

Edited December 9, 2012 by stingrayPete1977

[Dingus]

[quote name='ianhowardbass' timestamp='1355077010' post='1893748']
Gotta say that the build of Musicman is so much better than Fender.

I've got an SR5 and 2 American Fender basses, and the Stingray is amazing.
[/quote]

Whereas EBMM basses are very well made , I would say that the current American Fenders actually have certain construction advantages over EBMM basses . EBMM basses are meticulously made but i with relatively basic construction methods . As I have pointed out in a previous thread about EBMM , they have flatsawn necks with no graphite reinforcement . That is why they can sell them at a price below boutique basses despite sharing many of the features and having similar playability . American Standard Fenders have graphite neck reinforcement , as do some other models , and the Custom Shop basses are quartersawn . What's more , I have played and own(ed) some very nicely made Fender basses , easily comparable to EBMM quality . I know you will all clamour to tell me how stable the necks on your EBMM basses are , but the potential problems are likely to show up a few years down the line . Try taking one on tour across America or Europe in the middle of winter and , trust me , it's a very different story . I once read on here someone talking about Flea falling out with EBMM over their refusal to give him a signature model and so he stopped using Stingrays . I know for a fact this isn't true . The truth is that he stopped using Stingrays because the necks kept shifting so much that he got fed up with them and looked for something a bit more stable , settling on the Modulus with its graphite neck . As ever , you get what you pay for and EBMM are a lot of bass for the money , but they are not the last word in quality construction .

[stingrayPete1977]

All the fenders i have known have needed just the same truss rod adjustments at the same time of year, just a lot easier to do on a musicman

[Prunesquallor]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1355114315' post='1894225']The truth is that he stopped using Stingrays because the necks kept shifting so much that he got fed up with them and looked for something a bit more stable.[/quote]

There was more to it than the necks, I think. Here's what he had to say after the recording of One Hot Minute:

"[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"][font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"][size="1"][size="2"][size="3"][size="2"]The Alembic isn't as in-my-face as the Music Man, but the high notes are as loud as the low ones, from the bottom of the neck to the top, which is a problem on the Music Man. I probably could have used the StingRay for the entire album, but [b]when we go to record, I always think I need the best bass for recording[/b].[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/font][/size][/font]" [My bold]

In other words, he likes the tone of the Stingray, but thinks the instrument isn't up to spec for recording, whereas the Alembic was. The Modulus was probably better FOR HIM in that respect as well (and Spectors, and Wals...)

As for Fenders vs Stingrays, he's using vintage Fenders in the studio now.

YMMV

[4 Strings]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1355094076' post='1894052']
and again with the G&L L1000
[/quote]

Or maybe Leo got the 'chunk of chrome' right first time round; I wonder whose idea it was to change it?
[attachment=124583:53FenderPrecision.jpg]

Regarding Flea, his opinions are valid, he's a pro and uses basses all the time, he knows what he's talking about ad can have whatever he wants. Not the be all and end all though.

Edited December 10, 2012 by 4 Strings

[dlloyd]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1354624150' post='1888208']
Loads of crazy cheap Rays about now I have noticed, any more reductions will see a few USA ones in the £500-£600 bracket which I have never seen before, there are some in the FS section right now for £625-700. A corking flamed neck early 90's went unsold on ebay for £800 a few days ago which a year ago would of been £900+ in our for sale section with no ebay fees!
Someone bagged a Ray 5 for £532 on ebay a few days ago!

Is this just a sign of the times and only a few weeks until christmas or will all the Warwick jokes be coming to the EBMM owners soon?
[/quote]

I don't really see it as too different from the long-term trend. Rays have been consistently selling for around £600 for years. I sold mine (trans gold, mint condition) for £550 about five years ago, after it had sat in the classifieds with little interest for a couple of weeks.

[Musicman20]

Flea is one hell of a bassist (and encouraged me to try playing 90% with my fingers even in faster songs). I'd go as far to say he is probably MY biggest bass influence along with Matt Freeman from Rancid, (both players took the bass to the front of the mix and made it more interesting than the guitars).

But, he still sounds better to me on Ray or the Modulus. Perhaps the Alembic.

He sounds great on a Jazz because its Flea, but it doesn't sound as good, IMO.

I've only tweaked one of my Ray necks (I currently have 5 Musicman basses) in the past 10 years or more if owning various types of them. It took 20 seconds to put it right. My ex Jazz took longer and it chewed up part of the scratch plate because its not as accessible as the Musicman wheel, (2009 Jazz, long gone!).

[Prunesquallor]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1355134178' post='1894361']But, he still sounds better to me on Ray or the Modulus. Perhaps the Alembic.

He sounds great on a Jazz because its Flea, but it doesn't sound as good, IMO.[/quote]

Absolutely! He's a big inspiration for me as well, and his Fender tone does nothing for me. A Musicman bass is also likely to be my next one. However, it's not tone we're talking about, it's the quality of the instrument, and he - personally - didn't seem to be happy with the Stingray.

He did seem to be saying that he preferred the tone of the Stingray in that interview. It was the uneven output that was driving him crazy. He also prefers to tour with the Modulus to either of them.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Prunesquallor

[stingrayPete1977]

The 10 years of using a Ray is more than many bands last to be fair although I can see where the graphite neck could come in for touring, on the flip side many many pro players with huge big shows manage just fine with ebmm basses so maybe flea is just a big girl!
If I was a bass tech I'd be happy to see any bass with a wheel of fortune over anything else graphite rod or not, which brings it back to the neck construction idea being an issue when I'm sure other big names derived from mm use the same method, I'm thinking sadowsky and lakeland for a start, a few years ago the names to have in the pro scene?

Edited December 10, 2012 by stingrayPete1977

[Dingus]

[quote name='Prunesquallor' timestamp='1355127629' post='1894276']
There was more to it than the necks, I think. Here's what he had to say after the recording of One Hot Minute:

"[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2][size=1][size=2][size=3][size=2]The Alembic isn't as in-my-face as the Music Man, but the high notes are as loud as the low ones, from the bottom of the neck to the top, which is a problem on the Music Man. I probably could have used the StingRay for the entire album, but [b]when we go to record, I always think I need the best bass for recording[/b].[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/font][/size][/font]" [My bold]

In other words, he likes the tone of the Stingray, but thinks the instrument isn't up to spec for recording, whereas the Alembic was. The Modulus was probably better FOR HIM in that respect as well (and Spectors, and Wals...)

As for Fenders vs Stingrays, he's using vintage Fenders in the studio now.

YMMV
[/quote]

He was using different basses for recording even while he was using the Stingray as his main bass , first a Spector in the late 1980s , and then most of Blood Sugar Sex Magic is played on a Wal . Not long after that he abandoned Stingrays altogether .

[Dingus]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1355134178' post='1894361']
Flea is one hell of a bassist (and encouraged me to try playing 90% with my fingers even in faster songs). I'd go as far to say he is probably MY biggest bass influence along with Matt Freeman from Rancid, (both players took the bass to the front of the mix and made it more interesting than the guitars).

But, he still sounds better to me on Ray or the Modulus. Perhaps the Alembic.

He sounds great on a Jazz because its Flea, but it doesn't sound as good, IMO.

I've only tweaked one of my Ray necks (I currently have 5 Musicman basses) in the past 10 years or more if owning various types of them. It took 20 seconds to put it right. My ex Jazz took longer and it chewed up part of the scratch plate because its not as accessible as the Musicman wheel, (2009 Jazz, long gone!).
[/quote]

I find the modern Fender necks perfectly easy to adjust , no different to EBMM .

[Dingus]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1355136462' post='1894405']
The 10 years of using a Ray is more than many bands last to be fair although I can see where the graphite neck could come in for touring, on the flip side many many pro players with huge big shows manage just fine with ebmm basses so maybe flea is just a big girl!
If I was a bass tech I'd be happy to see any bass with a wheel of fortune over anything else graphite rod or not, which brings it back to the neck construction idea being an issue when I'm sure other big names derived from mm use the same method, I'm thinking sadowsky and lakeland for a start, a few years ago the names to have in the pro scene?
[/quote]

Sadowsky use the wheel , but Lakland use a conventional truss rod nut . Just to expand upon the point about EBMM necks , I saw an interview with John Myung's bass tech on Youtube recently ( Premier Guitar Channel ) and he was explaining how he has to adjust the truss rod on Myungs Bongo basses during the course of a show as they move and affect his action just from the change in temperature and humidity during the gig.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Dingus

[Rumple]

I recently sold and shipped a Stingray Classic 5 and when it arrived at the new owners house after a night in a cold warehouse the strings were apparently flat on the fingerboard so the neck had shifted quite a bit, all was fine again once it was back up to room temperature but just goes to show how far they can move.

[Dingus]

Let me just clarify , I am not suggesting that EBMM basses are not worthwhile instruments because of unstable necks - far from it , I play them myself and find them perfectly well made and very enjoyable basses all round - but I just want to make the point ( again ) that they aren't the last word in quality and durability compared to some other basses in a similar and slightly more expensive price range . I think if you get a good Fender ( emphasis on good ) then it will serve you just as well as EBMM and might even be a bit more robust in the long term . .

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1355143235' post='1894506']


Sadowsky use the wheel , but Lakland use a conventional truss rod nut . Just to expand upon the point about EBMM necks , I saw an interview with John Myung's bass tech on Youtube recently ( Premier Guitar Channel ) and he was explaining how he has to adjust the truss rod on Myungs Bongo basses during the course of a show as they move and affect his action just from the change in temperature and humidity during the gig.
[/quote]
Re Lakland I meant the overall bass which are very ray like and very nice too, probably something I'd concider swapping to if I lost the ray love, that or a Modulus funk5.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1355147213' post='1894573']
Let me just clarify , I am not suggesting that EBMM basses are not worthwhile instruments because of unstable necks - far from it , I play them myself and find them perfectly well made and very enjoyable basses all round - but I just want to make the point ( again ) that they aren't the last word in quality and durability compared to some other basses in a similar and slightly more expensive price range . I think if you get a good Fender ( emphasis on good ) then it will serve you just as well as EBMM and might even be a bit more robust in the long term . .
[/quote] mind you don't they tend to use birdseye maple for the necks? which is softer and less appropriate than normal hard maple. But... I think this is a bit of a dead end... I've had basses with graphite rods and without - and you know what both worked ok. I agree with Dingus , a good fender and a good musicman will both be good basses.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1355150082' post='1894624']
mind you don't they tend to use birdseye maple for the necks? which is softer and less appropriate than normal hard maple. But... I think this is a bit of a dead end... I've had basses with graphite rods and without - and you know what both worked ok. I agree with Dingus , a good fender and a good musicman will both be good basses.
[/quote]

I'd have thought the knots in the wood giving the bird's eye effect, would be harder than the 'normal' maple if there's any significant difference at all. I don't think anyone has had any issues with the use of bird's eye maple for necks caused by it being bird's eye maple.

I have an old P neck on a bitsa, ancient, been knocked around all over the place and is still absolutely fine without any adjustment. Haven't adjusted the neck on my Pre-EB Stingray since I first got it a couple of years ago. Utility 'Ray used every day, again not had neck adjusted since I got it, albeit only 9 months or so ago. fwiw.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1355147415' post='1894577']

Re Lakland I meant the overall bass which are very ray like and very nice too, probably something I'd concider swapping to if I lost the ray love, that or a Modulus funk5.
[/quote]

Trust me I wouldn't put Lakland Skyline anywhere near the latest 08- Fenders and virtually all EBMM basses. They are made to a much lower budget by Cort and then overpriced.

[stingrayPete1977]

It wouldn't be a skyline, you know me better than that

[Dingus]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1355150082' post='1894624']
mind you don't they tend to use birdseye maple for the necks? which is softer and less appropriate than normal hard maple. But... I think this is a bit of a dead end... I've had basses with graphite rods and without - and you know what both worked ok. I agree with Dingus , a good fender and a good musicman will both be good basses.
[/quote]

Opinion is split on whether birds eye maple is less stable for guitar necks , as far as I know . I have encountered plenty of unstable non -figured maple in my time , so I wouldn't neccesarily use the amount of figure as a reliable indication of rigidity .