lowballing .. definition and .. is it insulting ?

[martin8708]

Brits are pretty poor at haggling , we get offended if the offer is too low , and many feel too embarrassed to make lower offers for goods, but in other countries it is almost expected .

By offering an item for sale , you are opening yourself up to deal with the public , some will pay full price and some will try and get a better deal , some will take a bigger risk and throw in a " lowball " offer , if its too low you can always say no .

Most of us probably know the realistic price of guitars and amps , so if the price is good , I tend to go for it , or make a close offer in an attempt to shave a few quid off the price , Their is absolutely no point in getting arsey about an offer, good manners don't cost a penny.

[MiltyG565]

I think why people get offended is because of their personal attachment to the item in question. To them, a low offer is basically saying "No way is it worth that, do you know anything?" whereas in the mind of the "lowballed" it would be a bit more like "I like that, but i want to spend as little as possible on it, maybe i should ask if he will take £XXX and we can go from there".

Any auction you have ever been to, do they start the auction at anywhere near the market value of the item? no, they start it at hundreds, or even thousands below the market value in some cases. you have the benefit that if somebody makes a low offer, you can say no, or demand more, but if that was an auction, you can bet that somebody would be walking away with a very good deal on your beloved possession.

[Musky]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1354737577' post='1889902']
On my part, to an extent. On the part of the person ignoring what I've said, [b]it isn't negotiating[/b], it is spam or lies, depending on if they didn't read it, or read it and ignored it. Either way, no point in going further.
[/quote]
It's pretty much rule number one in negotiation, and the whole point of entering to a discussion on price. If you're open to offers on your stated price, you're opening up the sale to negotiation. The essence of negotiation is compromise. A compromise that both parties usually accept is that tabled figures are a starting position.

Of course with any sale the seller can decline to sell for whatever reason they want, but usually the point is to conclude it to the mutual satisfaction of both sides rather than 'win' the negotiation.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Musky

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1354738414' post='1889920']
Yes, there are a lot of dishonest people about. I have no wish to deal with them.
[/quote]

I work freelance and frequently have to regularly do deals on prices for my work. I have no way to ascertain the absolute maximum someone is will to pay me, and they have no way of knowing the minimum I will work for. Of course we are both withholding that information in order to strike the best deal but there is nothing remotely dishonest about any of it.

When you bid on ebay it doesn't disclose your maximum bid, neither does it disclose the sellers reserve (if there is one).

In any freely entered into trade its a fundamental right of both parties to have privacy concerning their limits.

Edited December 5, 2012 by bassman7755

[flyfisher]

This topic is an interesting insight to the wide range of views and aproaches to buying and selling stuff.

Given such a wide range of views, it's almost inevitable that some form of negotiation must take place otherwise there would only be a tiny number of trades between people who just happen to approach such things in the same way.

There are no rules, are there? So we have to make them up as we go along, with each party trying to influence the other until they come to a mutual agreement. If, for whatever reason, that doesn't happen then there's no deal.

The really odd thing is that some people can get so upset during the process of negotiation.

[Doddy]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1354735257' post='1889856']
What is wrong with that? I bought a bass for £80, did £50 worth of work and upgrades to it, and just wanted to get my £80 back out of it. I think getting your money back out of an item is the least you should hope for.
[/quote]

But don't tell people how much you paid.
If you want £80,say you want £80...don't say 'I paid £80 and want to get that back'.That's a sure way to get
a lowball offer.

[mcnach]

[quote name='karlfer' timestamp='1354708685' post='1889344']
Difficult one, the buyer generally wants to pay the minimum, seller wants to get the best they can.
If I think somebody is asking too much I just will not even contact them so they could well lose out on a sale.
The one that has been really bugging me this year is the start price on Marcus Millers.
"2002/3/4/" Marcus Miller, now costs £1076, £750 plus postage please"
It didn't cost £1076 in 2003, and they bought it 2nd hand for £450 in 2009, not that that is admitted.
A week later they are bleating because there is not interest. Yet if you offered them a more realistic £600, you are a lowballer!
[/quote]


something is worth what people are willing to pay, not what it cost new.

If you bought a bass for £300 in 2005 that somehow today seems to be sought after and it sells for £600 often... then would you advertise at £300 or £600?
The value is now £600... sell for less if you wish, but nothing wrong about asking anything you want.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1354749471' post='1890094']
But don't tell people how much you paid.
If you want £80,say you want £80...don't say 'I paid £80 and want to get that back'.That's a sure way to get
a lowball offer.
[/quote]

I didn't, i asked for £120, because the extra £50 was parts only, and didn't include any actual work done at all, so i thought £120 was quite conservative and realistic given what the bass was.

[mcnach]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1354730719' post='1889753']
See, this kind of thing grinds my gears far more than someone trying to haggle a price.

If its "only a two minute job to fix" or "its missing part $Y but you can get one on eBay for a few quid..." then major alarm bells start going in my head as a buyer. If a seller can't be bothered to spend the "few minutes" to fix whatever the supposed "minor" issue is, or won't spend a couple of pounds to replace a missing part on a bass worth hundreds then I start to have major doubts as to whether or not I want to deal with them.
[/quote]


absolutely, I'm the same.
Unless it's something that I am absolutely certain of... like electronics on a passive bass... If a bass has scratchy pots etc but otherwise is ok, or the jack socket makes intermittent connection, that I don't mind, it's simple and problem free. But anything more complex like an amp, or a car or... Forget it. Fix it first, or find someone else.

[Doddy]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1354750125' post='1890106']
I didn't, i asked for £120, because the extra £50 was parts only, and didn't include any actual work done at all, so i thought £120 was quite conservative and realistic given what the bass was.
[/quote]

You specifically didn't...but there are a lot of adverts that do. (I was using 'you' as a general term)

[bigjohn]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1354749209' post='1890088']
The really odd thing is that some people can get so upset during the process of negotiation.
[/quote]

Yeah. I don't get it.

Someone wants to sell something. There are a plethora of factors that influence the price which they will sell, similar the potential buyer and the price they will pay.

There's nothing to get upset about! Especially considering the relative ease with which sales are mostly conducted on here. Reading a PM at your leisure, no matter how ridiculous is not like waiting in all afternoon for some idiot to come and kick the tyres off your car.

Edited December 5, 2012 by bigjohn

[SlapbassSteve]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1354730719' post='1889753']
See, this kind of thing grinds my gears far more than someone trying to haggle a price.

If its "only a two minute job to fix" or "its missing part $Y but you can get one on eBay for a few quid..." then major alarm bells start going in my head as a buyer. If a seller can't be bothered to spend the "few minutes" to fix whatever the supposed "minor" issue is, or won't spend a couple of pounds to replace a missing part on a bass worth hundreds then I start to have major doubts as to whether or not I want to deal with them.
[/quote]

That's fair enough, although not everyone has the soldering iron or the know-how to replace a fiver's worth of faulty potentiometer or whatever. I've bought a couple of basses now where someone's attempted a 'two minute fix' and royally messed up the entire wiring or setup of the bass/guitar- in all cases I'd rather they'd have left it and saved me the job of unpicking their MDP-style handiwork!

In the case of my amp it wasn't actually a loose connection, just the nut on the input itself wasn't quite as tight as it should be, I simply didn't want to take it all apart and risk damaging an otherwise new amp to fix what was essentially a cosmetic issue. Thought it more honest to mention the tiniest details then to spring every little detail on the prospective buyer when they come to view it..

[karlfer]

"Paid £450 for this last year, want £450 now".
So they expect to get something rent free for a year. It would need to be something relatively hard to get hold of or a great object of personal desire before I would consider paying £450 in that event.
Then of course, you trace the item back to the previous owner/sale on here and find they actually paid £400 last year

[Shockwave]

I really detest lowballers. When I sell my stuff I always put "FIRM" No haggling etc at the end of the adverts. Yet I still get lowballs all the time, which results in a sarcastic reply from me.

I think it is personally disrepectful to lowball. I generally pay full price to BC'ers as basses are priced lower then anywhere else usually.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='SlapbassSteve' timestamp='1354753095' post='1890147']MDP-style handiwork![/quote]

That guy is going to pass as much into the national vocabulary as MDF, PDF, or GDP have done.
QED.

[Shockwave]

Also, i'll just quote myself from a while back in a similar thread.

[quote]This is an interesting subject to me. I am a pretty weak [color=#ff0000]willed[/color] person naturally. I really dont like haggling and I hate saying no. I think haggling preys on people who are "kind" or timid like myself. Indeed in my early Basschat days when people visited my house I got pressured to lower the price by well respected members after they noticed my youth and shyness.

My solution? Make sure in the advert that I put something along the lines of "Firm, absoloutely no haggling." I have sold everything recently with that in the message. If its a trade or part ex that I would allow, I will put very specific instructions as to what I want and the value I expect to be given to my bass. I generally take payment up front, even if its collection only. If people still haggle, then recently I have just asked them to leave as I dont like being hassled into allowing a price I will immediately regret.

Its the "Last moment" haggle which really depresses me. When I buy something and a price if agreed, then that is the price and it shouldnt change. Last minute pressure in a deal with regards to haggling annoys and upsets me (Unless there is a valid problem).

As an example. I recently sold a P5 Deluxe to someone on Basschat recently. He popped to Bristol. However before I went out, I noticed the bass had some extra damage I never noticed before. I felt bad considering the guy was already on his way. When I met up with him, I asked him how much his ticket cost and I refunded it to him (£50 before he even saw the bass and explained why. He came away happy, I didnt have to do it, he probably would have taken it away anyway. But rather he would go away happy and me with less guilt. Was it the morally right thing to do? Absoloutely. I just hope people would respond in kind.

Besides very rarely will I haggle a lower price in the first place, if I think it is priced correctly then all fine and dandy. If its priced somewhat high then I will know that the seller will eventually wise up and either reduce it, or keep hold of it. Everyone should be happy in a deal.

When i say "FIRM" in an advert, I am not saying the price will not go down at anytime. I mean that I am FIRM in dictating the price. Only I will dictate the price, when I am happy to accept less, I will approach you or amend my advert.[/quote]

[bobpalt]

How does anyone feel about haggling over the fee for a gig? We regularly get people trying to do this when we quote for weddings, and if we are quiet that week we sometimes agree to knock two or three hundred off the standard price, but invariably when we get there we find that the wedding is of the millionaires type with money thrown about everywhere with gay abandon, except towards the band so it seems. It leaves a bit of a taste in the mouth, but we still do it, on the understanding that any gig is better than sitting at home watching Saturday night telly.

[Conan]

[quote name='Shockwave' timestamp='1354786969' post='1890276']
I really detest lowballers. When I sell my stuff I always put "FIRM" No haggling etc I think it is personally disrepectful to lowball[/quote]

You are entitled to this view of course, but there will be times when it makes selling more difficult for you as there will be others selling similar items that are prepared to enter into a polite and civilised negotiation. Or you can call it haggling. It amounts to the same thing.

Once again, it comes down to the definition of a "lowball" offer. I personally would say that it is anything that is 50% or less than the advertised price, although this might vary on very expensive items and whether you think the seller has done their homework properly.

For example, if someone was selling a Wal bass at £10,000 I don't think it would be lowballing to offer £5,000 - unless that particular instrument actually [i]was[/i] worth ten grand...

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='bobpalt' timestamp='1354794220' post='1890395']
we sometimes agree to knock two or three hundred off the standard price, but invariably when we get there we find that the wedding is of the millionaires type with money thrown about[/quote]

Being able to get you to do that is why they are able to do the second bit.

[Conan]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1354794436' post='1890399']
Being able to get you to do that is why they are able to do the second bit.
[/quote]

Yeah - nobody gets to stay rich by throwing their money around!

[XB26354]

It depends on the definition of lowballing. There are plenty of people on here that advertise on the high side with no offers. Unsurprisingly their thread becomes a desert of no activity. As others have mentioned, Fender have really hiked their prices over the last few years. So you bought an American Standard Jazz in 2008/9 (when they could be had for just over £800) and want to sell now. They're now going for someone near the £1100 mark yet there's been plenty of ads listing at £850-£900, which is MORE than they paid for it! We're not talking about anything vintage here, just bog standard Fenders. Personally I try not to lowball anyone and have normally only replied to ads that are reasonably priced, and almost always paid the asking price. Doesn't hurt to ask if the price is negotiable though - in almost all examples of selling you advertise at a higher price than you expect to get, in order to get the price you wanted. If someone is advertising a used bass at above the price it costs to buy a new one then they're just asking for trouble, frankly. I have occasionally sent a PM to let them know but I don't bother any more as they'll work it out from the lack of interest.

[karlfer]

[quote name='XB26354' timestamp='1354795073' post='1890411']
It depends on the definition of lowballing. There are plenty of people on here that advertise on the high side with no offers. Unsurprisingly their thread becomes a desert of no activity. As others have mentioned, Fender have really hiked their prices over the last few years. So you bought an American Standard Jazz in 2008/9 (when they could be had for just over £800) and want to sell now. They're now going for someone near the £1100 mark yet there's been plenty of ads listing at £850-£900, which is MORE than they paid for it! We're not talking about anything vintage here, just bog standard Fenders. Personally I try not to lowball anyone and have normally only replied to ads that are reasonably priced, and almost always paid the asking price. Doesn't hurt to ask if the price is negotiable though - in almost all examples of selling you advertise at a higher price than you expect to get, in order to get the price you wanted. If someone is advertising a used bass at above the price it costs to buy a new one then they're just asking for trouble, frankly. I have occasionally sent a PM to let them know but I don't bother any more as they'll work it out from the lack of interest.
[/quote]

Couldn't agree more! Well said.

[cheddatom]

if someone says "no offers, firm price" in their ad, and then I PM a low offer, I'd understand why they'd be annoyed.

More often than not it just says a price, so obviously you'd offer lower than that.

If someone asks me for my best offer, why they hell would I actually tell them what it is? If I say to a seller "what's your best price" he's not going to tell me the absolute minimum he will take.

Some people just take things personally

[stingrayPete1977]

I always pay cash on collection regardless (almost) as to the distance, ask Anthomp who lives 150 miles away from me if I put the cash in his hand at 8.30am one sunday morning for a bass for example, missus went mad at the 5am start then enjoyed a day out together in the end! So point being if someone is selling a £1000-2000 bass for a fixed price as so many of you say, would you not be prepared to wave even £20 for losing the hassle of packing/postage and any risks along the way, plus the ready cash in your hand? sure Im not saying knock 50% off but an offer of say £675 on a £700 listing cash in your hand must be worth it?

Edited December 6, 2012 by stingrayPete1977

[neepheid]

I wasn't going to say any more on the subject, but the overriding feeling I'm getting from this thread is that I'm somehow wrong for wishing to sell items in a way that's comfortable for me and I feel compelled to clarify my position.

I list it for sale. If it doesn't sell for a while then I'll take down the price a bit or I'll keep the item. But I'll decide when that happens. It's still my item, it's still my sale. It's on sale for what it's worth to me, informed by having done some research into recent sales etc.. If that's not compatible with the market's opinion of what the item is worth (and I'm capable of counting my own tumbleweed, thanks) then I'll deal with it in my own way.

What's wrong with that? Not everyone's up for a bit of wheeling and dealing, not everyone is comfortable with it. OK, maybe I'm a bit of a control freak, but I'm not an ogre, I'm not an unreasonable person, nor am I difficult to deal with, as my feedback thread will attest to. I've clearly managed to sell stuff using this approach at mutually agreeable prices.

Given all the above, low offers bug me when I've put the effort in to price things reasonably to begin with. It's irritating, that's all. Usually I will reply with a reiteration of the price and its firmness, sometimes citing the research that has led me to the amount I am asking for. Often this is accepted with good grace and we continue from there. There may be varying degrees of detectable irritability in this communication, and I apologise for any I have communicated, and for any I will communicate in the future.