Cab Suggestions

[Bassman Rich]

[size=6][sub]Pick up an Ashdown compact cab, (i've had 2 of the recent style ones off here for £100, the older and mag series ones would be cheaper, empty ones cheaper still) put an eminence 3015 speaker in it, and you have a great sounding (IMHO ) lightweight cab, that stacked normal way round fits almost any size head on (ie either abm full width head or VBA in my case), and on its end looks ok with the smaller OBT, micro type heads. I know only 1 cab is 8 ohms, but one cab is fine for small to medium sized pub gigs, my 2 cabs can be very loud with the Ashdown ABM500 just ticking over for large pub gigs, so all sizes of stage/venue covered for a cheapish solution you can aquire in bits. [/sub][/size]

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1354799698' post='1890497']
So, you are saying that the speakers (the things that the music actually comes out of) are the least important part of the chain?
[/quote]

I think its easier to economise on speakers because you have more options to trade off against the price (such as weight and size). Also "commodity" speakers are incredibly cheap these days and most are reasonable decent sounding.

The OPs problem is that small/light/powerful speakers are never cheap.

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1354814803' post='1890800']
OTOH there's not much point in directing sarcasm at someone just for having a budget, and it comes across as sneering. Pointing out workable alternatives within the OPs budget is a lot more helpful than that...
[/quote]

Where is the sarcasm in my comment? Do you even know what sarcasm means? I was being straight. I thought Lawrence was spouting nonesence. I thought what he said made no sense.

But, to be back on topic. Start with a good quality cab first. Not the other way 'round. There are plenty of low priced amp heads that will sound great with the right cab.

[RandomBass]

Back on topic if we are allowed, have a try with one of those MBE cabs if possible. Same brand as your head if that means anything, and I'm sure will sound rather good, based on your budget. Don't be swayed by the 4 Ohm thing, its meaningless - too many fall for it, assuming it will make the most of their 4 ohm head.

[Lozz196]

Agree re the 4/8 ohm thing. My last setup was a Markbass Little Mark Tube 500, and I paired it with the Markbass 104HR I`m selling (but for which I mow have a buyer). As it`s the 8 ohm version I was concerned about only getting the 350 watts.

Needn`t have worried, even with "only" 350 watts, the volume couldn`t go above 4 out of 12, in a punk band. I`d read on here enough from many with far more brains than me that the 4/8 thing wasn`t worth worrying about, and putting it into practice I can confirm they were all correct.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1354824705' post='1891013']
Where is the sarcasm in my comment? Do you even know what sarcasm means? I was being straight. I thought Lawrence was spouting nonesence. I thought what he said made no sense.

But, to be back on topic. Start with a good quality cab first. Not the other way 'round. There are plenty of low priced amp heads that will sound great with the right cab.
[/quote]

"Nice one" and "Really." at the end of your posts were the sarcastic comments directed at the OP. I've no interest in a p*ssing contest, but it struck me that you were being unneccesarily condescending (you're doing it again with by asking "Do you even know what sarcasm means?"), and I thought that was a bit off. There's nothing wrong with a bit of civility...

[tauzero]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1354824705' post='1891013']
But, to be back on topic. Start with a good quality cab first. Not the other way 'round. There are plenty of low priced amp heads that will sound great with the right cab.
[/quote]

So, you suggest that the OP sells his new amp and buys a new cab instead?

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1354836727' post='1891206']
So, you suggest that the OP sells his new amp and buys a new cab instead?
[/quote]

Well, he has gone about it the wrong way/

[Beer of the Bass]

You seem to think that your opinion should be taken as gospel by everyone else, with no room for any other approach. We're talking about playing music here, there is no definitive right or wrong choice of gear. He could easily put down his £200 on any number of cabs and have a totally viable gigging rig. Yes, there are reasons why a grand's worth of cab might be preferable, but that's beside the point here.
Personally, in the OPs situation, I'd go secondhand if at all possible, as if he did want to upgrade later, he wouldn't make as much of a loss selling the cab on.

Edited December 6, 2012 by Beer of the Bass

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1354837225' post='1891216']
Well, he has gone about it the wrong way/
[/quote]

Oh dear. On the other hand, getting the amp first allows use of the headphone out for practicing, use of the valve pre-amp to colour the sound before DI for gigs with FoH where a cab is a non-issue, an easy portable solution for gigs where there's a house cab so you don't have to bring your own...
I don't really understand your antagonism.

Secondhand for the OP is a good option, though even there it's hard to beat the GK, you'd be hard pushed to find a pair of neo woofers alone for much less than that price.

[Ultima2876]

I think the guy is just trolling There's been loads of valid arguments in here for getting an amp first. In fact, I can't think of a situation where you'd want to buy a hella expensive cab just to sit and look at the pretty speakers until you can save up and get an amp to run through it... derp.

It's kinda like saying "screw buying a car with crappy tyres guys, you should totally get these amazing racing wheels and then buy the rest of the car later"

Edited December 7, 2012 by Ultima2876

[Si600]

Thank you all for your input, even if it wasn't percieved as being particularly encouraging or helpful at times .

As the GK MBE212 has popped up quite a few times in the suggestions then I'll try and find one to try/buy, or even a Neo, there was one for sale on here in May for £280 so although it's a stretch it might be worth it to get the next level up as it were.

I guess the suggestion for going 8OHM instead of 4 is that it will probably be loud enough anyway, and it gives scope to extend to another cab if needed?
Though quite what venue will require that I have no idea, nothing I'm going to be playing any time soon anyway .

I've made representations to Santa, so while I doubt a whole cab will appear, a contribution to it might and then I can peruse the classifieds!

Cheers all.

Simon.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Si600

[paddy109]

I have a gk212mbe 4ohm - brand new never been played, only taken out of its box to be checked over. Its only a couple of months old and complete with original packaging.
Willing to sell for £180 - so if you wanted to sort a courier I am sure this could be done for <£20 or come and pick up from Bristol. Bingo - great cab for <£200 budget!
Hope this doesn't break and forum rules.
Paddy.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1354815854' post='1890817']Haha, well that's fair but a semantic quibble We both know full well what I meant in the context of the OP looking for a cheap but acceptable cab for a 500w head and for 'maximum performance' by your definition it's not really necessary to spend a lot of money if you don't need to go loud.[/quote]

Lawrence, I agree that the OP doesn't need one of our cabs, and I wouldn't have said anything if I thought it was clear that your point was only related to this specific context. The internet has massive opportunities for the spreading of misinformation and all I'm doing is trying to clarify what the real truth is.

My points were exactly what I wrote: If you study power compression (both thermal and mechanical) you will see that it is a HUGE deal. Cabs become mechanically non-linear well before they exceed Xmax. Cabs become thermally non-linear well before they reach their thermal power handling limits. With like for like 1W sensitivity, cabs with greater mechanical and thermal power handling will be louder with 50W, 100W, 200W etc than cabs with less of either form of power handling.

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1354815854' post='1890817']With enough power your cabs are capable of going WELL beyond volumes that people use at most gigs...[/quote]

That very much depends on the bassist and the band and the gig. You could have two different bassists with the same band at the same venue and one could easily need 6dB more output than the other if his tonal preferences are skewed towards the lows. That requires a cab to move four times as much air and with power compression considered you're looking at needing maybe ten times as much power from your amp.

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1354815854' post='1890817']The flip-side to your point about [i]larger[/i] voice-coil diameter, is of course that the [i]longe[/i]r voicecoils of high-excursion drivers are less efficient - the Kappalite HOs are very loud but could be made even more so by sacrificing excursion and power handling, and of course the broadband sensitivity of the LF is much lower. The older, smaller VC diam B&C 12HPL64 is similar in sensitivity to the HO for that reason and sounds very nice indeed - just won't go as loud.[/quote]

The 12HPL64 only has similar sensitivity at 1W. Turn up to 100W and you're looking at around 3dB less sensitivity as the thermal and mechanical power handling are both about half as much as the 3012HO. And it won't handle much more than that without grumbling.

If you're not gigging much or at all yet, then I can totally see the sense in buying a nice head first - especially if you're into home recording and want a nice preamp to DI through. If you're gigging and frustrated with your tone/loudness then it almost always makes sense to sort out the speakers first, as they represent the biggest gains in the live environment. Again, it's all about context!

[alexclaber]

Get Paddy's cab (4 ohm is less than ideal because you won't be able to add a second and it won't be able to handle the extra power but it doesn't matter because if, in the the future, you find it isn't loud enough or has a less than ideal tone, you'll be able to upgrade with little or no depreciation cost)!

Edited December 7, 2012 by alexclaber

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1354871424' post='1891354']
The 12HPL64 only has similar sensitivity at 1W. Turn up to 100W and you're looking at around 3dB less sensitivity as the thermal and mechanical power handling are both about half as much as the 3012HO. And it won't handle much more than that without grumbling.
[/quote]

Which is TOTALLY irrelevant when you're looking at feeding a single speaker from a max of 250 watts with a crest factor of 10dB and you still have headroom, which is exactly my point.
I think you are stretching that point for the sake of promoting your product here which isn't like you. We both know the advantages of drivers with more power handling, but also that the extra doesn't come at zero cost and that the performance benefits are irrelevant if you have a good driver working within its limitations. I don't think you need to worry that people will suddenly stop seeing the advantages of your cabs, they're very good and the price is still keen compared to other offerings.

For me, the main gains offered by the long excursion neo drivers and modern amps is the ability to get to performance volume from a far smaller and lighter footprint. But 2 12s even in old money is enough for a lot of situations until you start with the smiley EQing. Then the problem becomes not the rig, but the person using it. Big bottom is nice but tonal perception is in the midrange, where extra volume is very cheap. I'm sure you'd agree that many cheap cabs are/were let down by lack of midrange clarity, and midrange performance is very important in your product line.

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1354871424' post='1891354']
That very much depends on the bassist and the band and the gig. You could have two different bassists with the same band at the same venue and one could easily need 6dB more output than the other if his tonal preferences are skewed towards the lows. That requires a cab to move four times as much air and with power compression considered you're looking at needing maybe ten times as much power from your amp.
[/quote]
Of course, but for a bigger gig where that kind of performance matters most, significant cab output low down is a problem, not a solution, from the point of view of FoH for reasons of both overall control and interference cancellation with subs. Again you know all this but are choosing to highlight only the advantages when every solution is in fact a compromise. The weak fundamental/first harmonics from sealed cabs are a blessing for mix engineers!

[Si600]

I don't know how cabs are made so this may be a stupid question, but can you swap out the 4 ohm bits for 8 ohm bits? Just thinking about running the 4 ohm (If I get it, have to wait until the new year anyway I think now) until it needs changing and then swapping out the electrics and get an 8 ohm cab. Wild speculation on my part, so if I'm wrong so be it.

Why won't a 4 ohm cab be able to handle extra power?

[Conan]

This deal would certainly take a lot of beating...

[url="http://www.gak.co.uk/en/genz-benz-gb-210t-xb2/76743"]http://www.gak.co.uk/en/genz-benz-gb-210t-xb2/76743[/url]

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='Si600' timestamp='1354876751' post='1891447']
I don't know how cabs are made so this may be a stupid question, but can you swap out the 4 ohm bits for 8 ohm bits? Just thinking about running the 4 ohm (If I get it, have to wait until the new year anyway I think now) until it needs changing and then swapping out the electrics and get an 8 ohm cab. Wild speculation on my part, so if I'm wrong so be it.

Why won't a 4 ohm cab be able to handle extra power?
[/quote]

Sorry but not possible, it's the speakers who makes it either a 4 or 8 ohm cab. You would have to change the speakers... believe me its better and cheaper to get another cab. Too much thing involved with cab tuning that i don't even know how to explain.

IMO if the drivers have enough power handling then the 4 ohm cab will handle the extra power from the amp (don't know wich cab wer're talking about) but won't be significantly louder. Let's say you have a amp running 500W @ 4Ohms and about 300W @ 8 Ohms. In terms of power handling a 8Ohm cab will only put out 300W and a 4Ohm one will put out 500W (assuming the cabs have more than enough power handling to do so), if both cabs are of the same configuration, 2x12" as an example, you won't hear/percieve the 4Ohm cab to be twice as loud as the 8Ohm, in fact you'll only notice a slight difference in headroom. This is due to the fact that, put siply, if you want to go louder you need more speakers (or more sensitive speakers but that's not the point now, i just don't want to start another argument about cab design). If on the other hand you use two 2x12" cabs, each 8Ohm, and link them to the amp then you'll get the full 500W and it will sound a lot louder (though still not twice as loud).

[Conan]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1354881158' post='1891512']
Let's say you have a amp running 500W @ 4Ohms and about 300W @ 8 Ohms. In terms of power handling a 8Ohm cab will only put out 300W and a 4Ohm one will put out 500W [/quote]

It's amps that "put out power" - not cabs. The power that the amp puts out depends on the impedance of the speaker cabinet, and even that is not the same at all frequencies!

The "wattage" value on a cabinet is the power load that it is supposed to be able to handle before sustaining damage. It's fairly well known that most cab manufacturers are fairly inaccurate with these ratings. Again though, it will depend on the use of the EQ. If you run a very bass-heavy sound you may damage the speakers in a cab way before reaching it's supposed power rating...

[alexclaber]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1354876720' post='1891446']Which is TOTALLY irrelevant when you're looking at feeding a single speaker from a max of 250 watts with a crest factor of 10dB and you still have headroom, which is exactly my point.
I think you are stretching that point for the sake of promoting your product here which isn't like you. We both know the advantages of drivers with more power handling, but also that the extra doesn't come at zero cost and that the performance benefits are irrelevant if you have a good driver working within its limitations. I don't think you need to worry that people will suddenly stop seeing the advantages of your cabs, they're very good and the price is still keen compared to other offerings.

For me, the main gains offered by the long excursion neo drivers and modern amps is the ability to get to performance volume from a far smaller and lighter footprint. But 2 12s even in old money is enough for a lot of situations until you start with the smiley EQing. Then the problem becomes not the rig, but the person using it. Big bottom is nice but tonal perception is in the midrange, where extra volume is very cheap. I'm sure you'd agree that many cheap cabs are/were let down by lack of midrange clarity, and midrange performance is very important in your product line.[/quote]

I'm not trying to push my products, I'm just trying to clarify the truths. One of the reasons that many cabs suffer with poor midrange clarity and punch is because they're not running clean and linear in the lows. In my opinion the OP should buy that used MBE212, get on with playing bass and stop thinking about amplification until it becomes a limiting factor. I've been working on a whole load of new designs over the last year and one thing which has become shockingly clear is how big an issue power compression is, in both of its forms, and that's shown quite why the Super Twelve is perceived as being so loud - it isn't amazingly sensitive, it just complies with Hoffman's Iron Law, but it stays linear to much higher SPL than most similar sized cabs, hence it's actual sensitivity when you need high sensitivity (i.e. playing LOUD) is higher when it counts. Have you seen what happens to the power demands and crest factor when a bassist wants a deeper fatter sound?

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1354876720' post='1891446']Of course, but for a bigger gig where that kind of performance matters most, significant cab output low down is a problem, not a solution, from the point of view of FoH for reasons of both overall control and interference cancellation with subs. Again you know all this but are choosing to highlight only the advantages when every solution is in fact a compromise. The weak fundamental/first harmonics from sealed cabs are a blessing for mix engineers![/quote]

I believe the ability of a cab to produce significant output low down is a very very important thing for bass guitar - education is key to using that output wisely (and our website is full of stuff about that) but a cab that can produce big clean lows will be much less problematic for FOH than a cab which can't and thus is messing up the stage and FOH sound with layers of mid-bass distortion and woolly midrange.

In small venues it's a good thing to have multiple distributed low frequencies sources because you more evenly excite all the room modes, so having LF from the subs and the backline (assuming it's good LF from the backline) is beneficial. In large venues the output from the subs is likely to be so high that the effect from the backline LF is relatively insignificant. In mid-sized venues it depends but it's rarely as bad a thing as you make out. In small venues with smaller PAs it's a very good thing to have a bass rig which can carry the bottom for the house so that the PA can work less hard and produce a nice clean bottom for the kick.

From a business perspective we are playing the long game - do the right thing, be true to the values and produce the best possible products and be completely honest about what they can do. Zero BS. I believe we'll make more money in the long term by behaving the right way because people will rightfully trust us and our products. It would easy to twist the science to big us up, it would be easy to make the products the market wants rather than what the market needs, but I don't believe in doing that. In the end I believe that doing the right thing will be the best thing for all concerned.

[Conan]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1354881921' post='1891526']
In my opinion the OP should get on with playing bass and stop thinking about amplification until it becomes a limiting factor. [/quote]

Most sensible comment in this entire thread!

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1354881891' post='1891523']
It's amps that "put out power" - not cabs. The power that the amp puts out depends on the impedance of the speaker cabinet, and even that is not the same at all frequencies!

The "wattage" value on a cabinet is the power load that it is supposed to be able to handle before sustaining damage. It's fairly well known that most cab manufacturers are fairly inaccurate with these ratings. Again though, it will depend on the use of the EQ. If you run a very bass-heavy sound you may damage the speakers in a cab way before reaching it's supposed power rating...
[/quote]

Thanks for clearing it up, i know that the speakers are the ones presenting a resistance (load) to the amp's power flow but i tried to explain things in layman's terms without overcomplicating so that the OP could have a bit more understanding on the subject.

cheers

[Conan]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1354882473' post='1891540']
cheers
[/quote]

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1354881921' post='1891526']
I'm not trying to push my products, I'm just trying to clarify the truths.
[/quote]

We should probably not continue on this thread! Maybe I'll start a different one at some point. But I don't think we're in much disagreement about the 'truths' (though from my own experience mixing I'd fundamentally disagree about the big low end from stage cabs+FoH, muddies up the mix far more than it helps and no cab will replicate the 'slam' of 'decent big rig' PA subs). What we're talking about though are objective limitations applied to subjective issues - timbral preference, perceived volume, sound quality. 'Education' ie how to use the kit wisely is as you say important. But if you know how to do that, then apparently limited kit can do a good job without breaking the bank or your back. There's a lot of ridiculous talk on here about how people 'need' this and that, fuelling the GAS, where I feel a bit of perspective and a bit of knowledge can save a lot of money and dissatisfaction leaving people to do what you say and get on with playing.