Basschat Competition Bass (13 Guitar Co.) - CONCLUSION!

[BigRedX]

[quote name='eude' timestamp='1358274527' post='1936158']
I've not conducted a scientific experiment, but of all the basses I've had the pleasure of playing, and that's a lot, from crumby knock off Fender copies to custom basses costing thousands of pounds, I always seem to prefer the sound of a bolt-on, there seems to be more attack to basses constructed in that manner, where neck through basses, tend to sound more organic and polite.
I guess the closest I've got to a the kind of comparison you require would be a bolt-on and neck through Warwick Thumb Bass, I much preferred the sound of the bolt-on, and it was cheaper
This is of course my opinion, based on my experience and my ears, I shall keep it to myself from now on

Eude
[/quote]

Well that's fair enough in the case of the Warwick instruments. Can I ask how similar they were? Same woods? Same pickup configuration and electronics?

I ask because although I own both bolt-on and neck through basses (as well as two set neck) the individual instruments are so different from each other I wouldn't dare say that my preferences for one over the other was down to the way the neck was attached to the body.

[BassBus]

[quote name='eude' timestamp='1358274527' post='1936158']
I shall keep it to myself from now on
[size=4]Eude[/size]
[/quote]

I don't know that you need to go that far.

I think what everyone in this discussion is saying that it is a very subjective thing. You're dealing with so many different dimensions, construction techniques and wood, that it will never be objective. Then there's the player...

Edited January 15, 2013 by BassBus

[eude]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1358281091' post='1936345']
Well that's fair enough in the case of the Warwick instruments. Can I ask how similar they were? Same woods? Same pickup configuration and electronics?

I ask because although I own both bolt-on and neck through basses (as well as two set neck) the individual instruments are so different from each other I wouldn't dare say that my preferences for one over the other was down to the way the neck was attached to the body.
[/quote]

I'd guess similar but not exactly the same, they were both made before Warwick stopped using Wenge necks (I think they're using them again now as of this year by the way).
The neck through thumb had a bubinga body with a wenge/bubinga neck and wenge board, 26 frets, 2 MEC J pickups and MEC 3 band EQ.
The bolt-on thumb would've been an ovankol (spelling?) body I think, wenge neck and board, 24 frets, 2 MEC J's and a MEC 2 band EQ.
So I guess it's probably not nearly exact enough to make scientific comparison, but to my ears they sounded like they were from the same family, but different. The Warwick Thumb tone was there in both, but the neck through was smoother and the bolt-on sounded much better, more aggressive with more bite when I dug in and played slap lines, which was a big part of how I played back then.
Of course, this is totally how it sounded to me, I appreciate its totally subjective...

[quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1358281665' post='1936364']
I don't know that you need to go that far.

I think what everyone in this discussion is saying that it is a very subjective thing. You're dealing with so many different dimensions, construction techniques and wood, that it will never be objective. Then there's the player...
[/quote]

Don't worry, I'm not actually in the huff, I hoped the smilie would have made that clear

Eude

[Skol303]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1358241534' post='1935217']If you were going for 20", you probably might as well just get a flat fretboard.[/quote]
I've been trying our various basses in my local Dawsons (it's the nearest music shop to where I work) and I've found that flatter boards suit my playing style a wee bit better - maybe it's the lower action or something, but I think a 20" radius will be great for me. I'm not sure if it matters [i]that[/i] much on basses anyway - Paul and others have commented that it's more an issue for guitars, where some players prefer a more rounded fretboard for forming chords and whatnot. But I guess each player is different!

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1358271063' post='1936079']I have basses with all three types of neck construction but they are also made out of completely different materials and have completely different hardware pickups and electronics fitted. I have no idea what difference the way the neck joins the body makes to the overall sound, and I doubt anyone else can.[/quote]
Good point. In this case I'm opting for a through-neck primarily because it'll give the best access to the upper frets; secondly because from what I've read and experienced trying out different basses it can help to give more sustain and a 'warmer' tone (obviously highly subjective); and thirdly because they look great and I've always dreamed of owning one!

[quote name='eude' timestamp='1358285583' post='1936549']Don't worry, I'm not actually in the huff, I hoped the smilie would have made that clear [/quote]
No worries Eude, I didn't think for a second that anyone was getting heated! It's actually been a very interesting debate. By the way, I think you're right about Warwick starting to use wenge again... fairly sure I read about that while researching different wood types (which has become something of a new hobby!).

Edited January 16, 2013 by Skol303

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1358342058' post='1937260']
Good point. In this case I'm opting for a through-neck primarily because it'll give the best access to the upper frets; secondly because from what I've read and experienced trying out different basses it can help to give more sustain and a 'warmer' tone (obviously highly subjective); and thirdly because they look great and I've always dreamed of owning one!
[/quote]

All my favourite basses have neck through construction. I'd need to see some fairly compelling evidence that my choice of neck construction was having a detrimental effect on the tone I was after to abandon it in favour of reduced playability in the second octave of the neck.

Also I see little point in having a 28 fret neck if you're going to have difficulty reaching them all. My fretless Sei has a 2½ octave fingerboard, and there's no heel at all until just after the 2 octave mark.

[MiltyG565]

BRX, we don't need to have identical basses to know if the neck construction will alter the tone, because we know it will. How we know that is because we already know that bass frequencies aren't picky, and will cross grains, glue, gaps, joints with ease. Treble frequencies follow the grain, and stop at joints, gaps, glue and even the grain. Now if you were to ask about the treble resonance of a neck through bass, and a bolt on bass, i would bet that the neck through would come off better.

[charic]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1358344897' post='1937350']
BRX, we don't need to have identical basses to know if the neck construction will alter the tone, because we know it will. How we know that is because we already know that bass frequencies aren't picky, and will cross grains, glue, gaps, joints with ease. Treble frequencies follow the grain, and stop at joints, gaps, glue and even the grain. Now if you were to ask about the treble resonance of a neck through bass, and a bolt on bass, i would bet that the neck through would come off better.
[/quote]

If popular culture is to believed it would also depend on the woods used though (heavily disputed btw).

Also other phrases are banded about which would disagree with that particular assessment, bolt ons are generally considered more aggressive sounding compared to neck throughs which are generally considered more "polite". Personally I expect a good bolt on can sound like a neck through and vice-versa.

However... It could be that neck through basses are built with a certain sound in mind (and for the same reason so are bolt-ons), because of this we have a preconceived idea of how they sound.

[uncle psychosis]

Personally I think people spend too much time thinking about the tonal effects of things like bolt on vs neck through, fretboard material, etc and not enough considering the (probably more important) aesthetic and playability implications.

If you have a bass that is comfortable to play, has a good basic sound, and the right kind of design for what you want (pickup position, fret access, right number of controls, etc) then you can easily make minor tweaks to the electronics to fine tune the tone. Worrying about whether or not your double-mocha-skinny-latte-wenge fingerboard might be brighter than a ekky-ekky-ekky-ptang-nuwop-ni fingerboard seems a little silly to me.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1358349451' post='1937500']
Personally I think people spend too much time thinking about the tonal effects of things like bolt on vs neck through, fretboard material, etc and not enough considering the (probably more important) aesthetic and playability implications.

If you have a bass that is comfortable to play, has a good basic sound, and the right kind of design for what you want (pickup position, fret access, right number of controls, etc) then you can easily make minor tweaks to the electronics to fine tune the tone. Worrying about whether or not your double-mocha-skinny-latte-wenge fingerboard might be brighter than a ekky-ekky-ekky-ptang-nuwop-ni fingerboard seems a little silly to me.
[/quote]

I think you'll find that Skol has chosen the neck through design mostly on the fact that he has so many frets, so for playability, he has opted for neck through.

[charic]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1358349451' post='1937500']
Worrying about whether or not your double-mocha-skinny-latte-wenge fingerboard might be brighter than a ekky-ekky-ekky-ptang-nuwop-ni fingerboard seems a little silly to me.
[/quote]

Pffft... everyone knows that ekky-ekky-ekky-ptang-nuwop-ni is brighter than double-mocha-skinny-latte-wenge

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1358349845' post='1937515']
I think you'll find that Skol has chosen the neck through design mostly on the fact that he has so many frets, so for playability, he has opted for neck through.
[/quote]

I wasn't talking specifically about Skol, I was talking in general.

[Skol303]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1358349845' post='1937515']I think you'll find that Skol has chosen the neck through design mostly on the fact that he has so many frets, so for playability, he has opted for neck through.[/quote]
Spot on Milty! Took the words out of my mouth But I don't think Uncle Psych was aiming that comment at me directly (in fact he's just said so! I need to type faster...). In fact I agree with his point that although material choice does have [i]some[/i] impact on tone, it arguably has much less impact than things like pickups, playing style, etc, etc. You're right though that my choice was primarily about the practicality of reaching the higher frets on a 28-fret neck. No point in having a heel in the way, as BRX mentioned earlier.

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1358350018' post='1937525']Pffft... everyone knows that ekky-ekky-ekky-ptang-nuwop-ni is brighter than double-mocha-skinny-latte-wenge [/quote]
Well, I was going to opt for Peruvian mwang-mwang pygmy excreted chipboard, but the pygmies are on strike and playing hard ball over it, so heh

Edited January 16, 2013 by Skol303

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1358349451' post='1937500']
Personally I think people spend too much time thinking about the tonal effects of things like bolt on vs neck through, fretboard material, etc and not enough considering the (probably more important) aesthetic and playability implications.

If you have a bass that is comfortable to play, has a good basic sound, and the right kind of design for what you want (pickup position, fret access, right number of controls, etc) then you can easily make minor tweaks to the electronics to fine tune the tone. Worrying about whether or not your double-mocha-skinny-latte-wenge fingerboard might be brighter than a ekky-ekky-ekky-ptang-nuwop-ni fingerboard seems a little silly to me.
[/quote]

+1 Weight and how it sits is way more important to me than looks.
I also think it's easy to spend far too much time thinking through woods.... I think the best knowledge will be asking someone who knows or owns a bass made similarly. For example I could give an opinion on an all maple bass with a wenge fingerboard (compared to the standard fender alder/maple/rosewood tonal range) for a all mahogany bass... well I remember someone on here (Mr Letts I'm talking to you) talking about how his favoured bass building wood was mahogany so I would see if he would let you pick his brain.

and pickups are probably as/more important.

[Skol303]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1358376877' post='1938340']... I remember someone on here (Mr Letts I'm talking to you) talking about how his favoured bass building wood was mahogany so I would see if he would let you pick his brain.[/quote]

Cheers the input Luke, appreciated. The build is now going ahead with a mahogany/wenge through-neck and mahogany 'wings' making up the body. Paul (13 Guitar Co) is likewise a supporter of mahogany as a good material for basses. I've played - but not owned - a few myself and always found them to have a nice solid tone/feel and a great appearance too; it's a lovely wood all round!

[Mornats]

Wow, only just saw your build thread mate. Really like the very non-conformist shape you've gone for too and that ebony for the fretboard looks gorgeous.

Now, just to make sure I like it when it gets built and then I'll try and rejig the votes and make it look like I won the comp after all muarh har har!

Can't wait to see pics!

[Skol303]

[quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1358809473' post='1945601']
Wow, only just saw your build thread mate. Really like the very non-conformist shape you've gone for too and that ebony for the fretboard looks gorgeous.

Now, just to make sure I like it when it gets built and then I'll try and rejig the votes and make it look like I won the comp after all muarh har har!

Can't wait to see pics!
[/quote]

Cheers Paul! I'm really happy with the shape and materials. Will definitely be posting pics here as the build progresses... so watch this space.

PS: your plan is dastardly. I might just have it painted with My Little Ponies (or something) to thwart you!

[charic]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1358897433' post='1946940']
I might just have it painted with My Little Ponies (or something) to thwart you!
[/quote]

Jedward inlays

[Stephen Houghton]

Thats final then, my little pony body, jedward inlays on neck and maybe telly tubby special pickups, thats if your going the whole hog, I suggest a pink furry gig bag?

Dream bass or what!

Then you have got to save for a matching my little pony amp and cab

Edited January 23, 2013 by Stephen Houghton

[lettsguitars]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1358445300' post='1939378']
Cheers the input Luke, appreciated. The build is now going ahead with a mahogany/wenge through-neck and mahogany 'wings' making up the body. Paul (13 Guitar Co) is likewise a supporter of mahogany as a good material for basses. I've played - but not owned - a few myself and always found them to have a nice solid tone/feel and a great appearance too; it's a lovely wood all round!
[/quote]It's all good Skolster. Tonewoods? Of course tonewoods. Any material will have an impact on the resonant frequency of any instrument. Mahogany is a great place to start. It is also very nice to work with and offers just the right amount of flexibility for neck relief adjustments. The only downside is it can be quite easy to ding, but having said that it is very very easy to fix dings in a natural finish.
I agree that weight/balance/playability are top priority, although looks are just as important unless you are a blind man/woman.

[Skol303]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1358950950' post='1947496']Jedward inlays [/quote]
[quote name='Stephen Houghton' timestamp='1358962532' post='1947761']...my little pony body... and maybe telly tubby special pickups, thats if your going the whole hog, I suggest a pink furry gig bag? Dream bass or what![/quote]
Can you imagine?? It would certainly be... err... [i]distinctive![/i]

[quote name='lettsguitars' timestamp='1358964729' post='1947809']It's all good Skolster. Tonewoods? Of course tonewoods. Any material will have an impact on the resonant frequency of any instrument. Mahogany is a great place to start. It is also very nice to work with and offers just the right amount of flexibility for neck relief adjustments. The only downside is it can be quite easy to ding, but having said that it is very very easy to fix dings in a natural finish. I agree that weight/balance/playability are top priority, although looks are just as important unless you are a blind man/woman.[/quote]
Cheers Letts! The choice of materials seems to have got a good amount of support from everyone - I appreciate your feedback on this mate. Mahogany was my first choice as I've been really impressed with it as material on basses I've played (in shops and owned by friends, etc). I know there's a lot more to the tone than just the material, but it seems like a good choice for this build. And like I said, I think it looks great! Which as you mention is always a factor. Anyway, cheers again for the input

[Skol303]

Hi folks,

Quick update on this project: the woods and construction type have been decided (see above) and the materials are now on order. This gives some time for me to start pondering what sort of pick ups and EQ would best suit this bass...

Paul ([url="http://www.13guitarco.com/"]13 Guitar Co[/url]) has offered lots of very useful advice on this already. And as always, I'll be trusting his own judgement on what's best. But in the spirit of this project I also wanted to get some feedback from fellow Basschatters on what you'd recommend, or what you've found works well on the basses you own.

[size=5][b]So... what are your thoughts and suggestions for choice of pickups?[/b][/size]

Paul has been helpful in giving me some things to think about, which I'll share here too. He's described the pickups and strings as being crucial for the overall 'sound' of the instrument, whereas the woods and construction contribute to its natural EQ and envelope (attack, sustain and decay). I think in terms of mixing audio, so this description made good sense to me.

Overall, I'm looking for a warm, low tone from this bass - more bottom end than top/treble. I play fingerstyle (rarely use a pick and almost never slap). The sound I have in my head is akin to modern dub/reggae recordings... I'll try to put together some audio samples or YouTube clips and upload them here, as that's probably the best way of communicating the sound I'm envisaging (rather than calling it "fat" or whatever ).

Here are some useful links that Paul has shared on this topic, which might interest some of you:

http://www.notreble.com/buzz/2010/11/16/bass-pickups-a-guide-to-formulating-your-sound/

http://www.frudua.com/how_pickups_work.htm

Comments and suggestions very welcome as always!

[charic]

You could try contacting Wizard about your pickups, if you describe the sound you want to them I'm sure they could sort something out

If you're going active then drop an ACG pre-amp in there (if you're not scared of something a bit different), you'll get absolutely oodles of bass out of it and be able to mix in the other frequencies to suit

[Skol303]

^ Nice one Charic! Great ideas there mate. I have a lot of Googling to do when I get home after work this evening... Will definitely be checking out Wizard p'ups and ACG pre-amps. Thanks for the suggestions.

[charic]

If you're ever in the area you're more than welcome to try out my ACG. It's in Drop C though

[Dave Vader]

The most pleasingly bassy sound which fits what you describe, that I have ever got comes from an old kay pick up (yep, from a cheap EB3alike i got for £25). Slammed near the neck in my Fretless roadstar/warmoth bitsa.
I am keeping the other one for the moment the one I am using breaks irrepairably, due to being from a Kay.