CD verses Vinyl

[PaulWarning]

just changed my speakers on my Hifi so I've got all enthusiastic about listening to music again, the thing I've noticed if I turn the treble down on CD's they sound a lot better, almost like vinyl but with a little bit more clarity, anybody else do this?

[Big_Stu]

Haven't got a treble control to turn down, or a bass to turn up My amp is straight through, just as it was intended, or at least how the manufacturers tastes would have me believe it was intended.
Though I can hear a huge difference between many versions of the same recording on vinyl/CD more than a few times has been because of remixing by other engineers years after the original was made. It's all down to personal preferences all along the line and years - right up until it reaches your ears.

[Rayman]

Nothing sounds better than Vinyl. No matter what you do with it. IMO.

You did ask!

[BenTunnicliffe]

I'm not form the generation to have even come close to having vinyl as even a less-used medium to be buying and listen to music but a few years ago I started buying it from the odd record shop still around and searching through charity shop crates purely because I can get a bigger version of the artwork and quality pros/cons aside still get exposed to an album for 50p as opposed to £7.99 or whatever itunes and CD shops offer.

I really like the sound a hell of a lot mainly because the bass sounds great and somehow they feel like something worth collecting (even new vinyl).

If I was to release any kind of hardcopy of something I did with my own band with the aim being to SELL them then I'd release it as vinyl only, I don't see CDs as being a medium worth chasing any more seeing as downloads are the primary source people go to for music now.... Interesting watching things change!

[molan]

CD's are compressed and limited (I really don't understand the technology behind this!) and never seem to sound as open and natural as vinyl to me.

However, your signal chain is really important. Without a quality turntable, arm and cartridge you may find vinyl doesn't sound as good as a mid level CD player.

CD's can sound a lot more 'immediate' though and possibly more appealing to begin with. Vinyl should let you listen to more music for longer without tiring your ears

Mind you, a really good CD master and a high end transport can sound pretty damn good too!

[Fionn]

Back in the day I recorded much of my vinyl onto mini-disc. It sounded amazing! Because there is so much compression a lot of the more extreme artifact from the vinyl is removed, but somehow the goodies stay intact. It's an interesting sound.

[KingBollock]

Bah! It's all about the Cassette! Actually, isn't vinyl written from tape?

When I was a kid I used to rip all my vinyl onto cassette because it doesn't take long before vinyl starts to sound ropey...

EDIT: I have to admit that the first part was meant tongue in cheek but the bit about ripping is true.

Edited December 9, 2012 by KingBollock

[Rayman]

I've still got a massive box of cassettes in the loft. Coincidentally to all this, I'm picking up an old HiFi (younger readers all say "EH??) today.....I've found a couple of shops selling vinyl, and I'm going to start getting a few LPs again. I still have my old collection of vinyl too, so I'm looking forward to hearing it all again.

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='Rayman' timestamp='1355007399' post='1893002']
Nothing sounds better than Vinyl. No matter what you do with it. IMO.

You did ask!
[/quote]
Does vinyl appear to sound better because of the physical attachment to it i.e. taking this disc out of a nice big sleeve, putting it on a turnrable and dropping the arm on it and being able to watch it go round, therefore enhansing the listening pleasure, or does it actually sound better even though initially CD's do sound clearer, I don't know, but I do know I seem to enjoy vinyl more

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1355013973' post='1893073']
CD's are compressed and limited (I really don't understand the technology behind this!) and never seem to sound as open and natural as vinyl to me.

However, your signal chain is really important. Without a quality turntable, arm and cartridge you may find vinyl doesn't sound as good as a mid level CD player.

CD's can sound a lot more 'immediate' though and possibly more appealing to begin with. Vinyl should let you listen to more music for longer without tiring your ears

Mind you, a really good CD master and a high end transport can sound pretty damn good too!
[/quote]
[quote name='Fionn' timestamp='1355014451' post='1893076']
Back in the day I recorded much of my vinyl onto mini-disc. It sounded amazing! Because there is so much compression a lot of the more extreme artifact from the vinyl is removed, but somehow the goodies stay intact. It's an interesting sound.
[/quote]
Compression is the scourge of modern music, as with CD's it sounds better initially but it takes all the space away from around the diifferent instruments. Why is Dark side of the moon still held up as a brilliant recording (don't like it myself, the record not the recording) even with the advances(???) of modern recording equipment?

[Rayman]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1355046453' post='1893209']
Does vinyl appear to sound better because of the physical attachment to it i.e. taking this disc out of a nice big sleeve, putting it on a turnrable and dropping the arm on it and being able to watch it go round, therefore enhansing the listening pleasure, or does it actually sound better even though initially CD's do sound clearer, I don't know, but I do know I seem to enjoy vinyl more
[/quote]

Maybe some of it is in the mind, I don't know, but the test, for me happened recently. I listened to "Blue In Green" from "Kind of Blue" by Miles Davis on CD recently, turned up loud, in a darkened room. Nice. Then......I put it on again only this time the vinyl version, and it sounded like the band were in the room, it really did. With the CD.....it felt like you were listening......to a CD.

[Spike Vincent]

[quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1355014533' post='1893077']
Bah! It's all about the Cassette! Actually, isn't vinyl written from tape?

When I was a kid I used to rip all my vinyl onto cassette because it doesn't take long before vinyl starts to sound ropey...

EDIT: I have to admit that the first part was meant tongue in cheek but the bit about ripping is true.
[/quote]

Damn right! I still record onto cassettes and have a limited run cassette label.

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1355014533' post='1893077']
Bah! It's all about the Cassette! Actually, isn't vinyl written from tape?

When I was a kid I used to rip all my vinyl onto cassette because it doesn't take long before vinyl starts to sound ropey...

EDIT: I have to admit that the first part was meant tongue in cheek but the bit about ripping is true.
[/quote]
Well, cassettes are analogue too, but stuff isn't recorded onto tape anymore its all done by computers, maybe that's why modern music is rubbish, or it could be I'm getting old

[JamesBass]

I don't think its CD or Vinyl, more a case of new techniques versus old techniques, modern music is being produced in a different way to that of yesteryear, for those who haven't seen this vid check it out, makes a lot of sense once you've watched it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ

[BigRedX]

I hate vinyl. Personally I think that well-recorded digital formats are the best thing that has happened to music since the first recording was made.

I can't understand how a format that actually wears out every time it is used (no matter how good the playback equipment is) can be held in such high esteem. I'm certainly not going to shed any tears for the missing hiss, pops, clicks, scratches, wow and flutter, and jumping styluses in my digital music collection.

I do get the impression that the vinyl apologists are either displaying very selective memory, or they were lucky enough to never encounter any of the appalling excuses for pressings that littered vinyl releases from the mid 70s to the late 80s. Records that were full of unwanted aural artefacts from the first playing, pressed on vinyl so thin it nearly qualified as a flexi-disc. Discs pressed so badly off-centre they made you sea-sick when you listened to them.

That feeling of dread when you invariably had to return a faulty pressing to the record shop, knowing that you's have to endure the 3rd degree regarding your vinyl handling and the equipment you were using to play it on before they'd even consider an exchange. And then the disappointment at discovering that either your damaged copy was the only one the shop had, or that all the other copies in the box were equally bad - so you had to either take it with all its faults or go without that particular record.

Vinyl also puts a lot of restrictions on what can actually be reproduced. Anything interesting with phase and stereo imagery is likely to result in a recording that can't even be cut to vinyl let alone played. A digital file has no such issues. And that's before we get into the comparison of bandwidth, dynamic range and signal to noise ratios. Hopefully 5im0n will be along shortly to contribute to this thread with more detail, but a well recorded and masters CD outperforms vinyl all round, and while it's not indestructible it is a good deal more robust.

As for over-compression and the loudness wars blame the record companies (and the artists who seemingly allow it without protest) not the format. Volume on vinyl (within limits) was a trade-off with running time. Louder signal meant wider grooves and consequently less of them inch diameter of the record and therefore less running time. You could get a significant increase in volume by cutting the running time of each side of the album from just under 20 minutes to just over 16. With CD once you reach 0dB (that's all 16 bits set to 1 - all of them set to 0 is silence) there's nowhere else to go. The only way you can make the recording sound louder in digital is to limit the peaks and make the average signal level higher. This of course leads to the over-compressed sound that lots of CDs display. There's no reason for it other than it's what record companies think their consumers want (and a lack of complaints by most consumers). In fact if anything the dynamic range of the CD is too big for home listening. This is certainly a complaint I've heard from some classical music listeners who have difficulty balancing the quiet passages against the loud ones on CD in a typical home environment.

In the end though, I can't help thinking that the people who complain about modern music formats, have lost sight of the most important thing - the actual music itself. So long as the delivery medium isn't intruding on the listening experience then the format being used doesn't matter.

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1355053500' post='1893316']
I hate vinyl. Personally I think that well-recorded digital formats are the best thing that has happened to music since the first recording was made.

I can't understand how a format that actually wears out every time it is used (no matter how good the playback equipment is) can be held in such high esteem. I'm certainly not going to shed any tears for the missing hiss, pops, clicks, scratches, wow and flutter, and jumping styluses in my digital music collection.

I do get the impression that the vinyl apologists are either displaying very selective memory, or they were lucky enough to never encounter any of the appalling excuses for pressings that littered vinyl releases from the mid 70s to the late 80s. Records that were full of unwanted aural artefacts from the first playing, pressed on vinyl so thin it nearly qualified as a flexi-disc. Discs pressed so badly off-centre they made you sea-sick when you listened to them.

That feeling of dread when you invariably had to return a faulty pressing to the record shop, knowing that you's have to endure the 3rd degree regarding your vinyl handling and the equipment you were using to play it on before they'd even consider an exchange. And then the disappointment at discovering that either your damaged copy was the only one the shop had, or that all the other copies in the box were equally bad - so you had to either take it with all its faults or go without that particular record.

Vinyl also puts a lot of restrictions on what can actually be reproduced. Anything interesting with phase and stereo imagery is likely to result in a recording that can't even be cut to vinyl let alone played. A digital file has no such issues. And that's before we get into the comparison of bandwidth, dynamic range and signal to noise ratios. Hopefully 5im0n will be along shortly to contribute to this thread with more detail, but a well recorded and masters CD outperforms vinyl all round, and while it's not indestructible it is a good deal more robust.

As for over-compression and the loudness wars blame the record companies (and the artists who seemingly allow it without protest) not the format. Volume on vinyl (within limits) was a trade-off with running time. Louder signal meant wider grooves and consequently less of them inch diameter of the record and therefore less running time. You could get a significant increase in volume by cutting the running time of each side of the album from just under 20 minutes to just over 16. With CD once you reach 0dB (that's all 16 bits set to 1 - all of them set to 0 is silence) there's nowhere else to go. The only way you can make the recording sound louder in digital is to limit the peaks and make the average signal level higher. This of course leads to the over-compressed sound that lots of CDs display. There's no reason for it other than it's what record companies think their consumers want (and a lack of complaints by most consumers). In fact if anything the dynamic range of the CD is too big for home listening. This is certainly a complaint I've heard from some classical music listeners who have difficulty balancing the quiet passages against the loud ones on CD in a typical home environment.

In the end though, I can't help thinking that the people who complain about modern music formats, have lost sight of the most important thing - the actual music itself. So long as the delivery medium isn't intruding on the listening experience then the format being used doesn't matter.
[/quote]
all this is true of course, that's what makes me think it may be a nostalgia thing, or it could be analogue is cutting out 2 processes which could be responsible for a loss of something, the conversion from anaolgue to digital and back again.
I'll perhaps go out and buy a modern recording on vinyl and see what that sounds like, anybody done this?

[Spike Vincent]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1355053500' post='1893316']


In the end though, I can't help thinking that the people who complain about modern music formats, have lost sight of the most important thing - the actual music itself. So long as the delivery medium isn't intruding on the listening experience then the format being used doesn't matter.
[/quote]

Well said.

[Spike Vincent]

Never Mind The Bollocks Here's The Sex Pistols on vinyl sounds exactly the same as it does on CD,apart from all the scratches,through my not exactly shabby Studio Monitors.Sounds better on cassette though.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1355056120' post='1893355']
[u]all this is true of course[/u], that's what makes me think it may be a nostalgia thing, or it could be analogue is cutting out 2 processes which could be responsible for a loss of something, the conversion from anaolgue to digital and back again.
I'll perhaps go out and buy a modern recording on vinyl and see what that sounds like, anybody done this?[/quote]

No it isn't, not by a long stretch, but it's easy to exagerate an issue if you have a point to attempt to make.
In over 30 years of buying vinyl I have only once had to return a record to the shop due to damage & I still have the replacement they gave me. I also have albums on RCA & Polydor (orig. mint copy of Bowie's Aladdin Sane which is way superior to my CD copy of the same, among others) which are every bit as physically heavy as the hi-fi grade 180gm "heavyweight vinyl" that is sold now on reissues.
Nor, once I left my more carefree/careless teens, do I have any records which pop, click or anything else, because I know how to look after them. I have often had visitors say that it sounds as clear of noise as a CD. I have matched the quality of my kit with a more than worthwhile CD deck, so I do find CD obviously more convenient for use - it also gives me a great opportunity to compare recordings of identical albums across two & on rare occasions three formats. (By comparison my recording of Carmen, for eg, on cassette is woeful, the sound is thin, lacking in depth & bass but it was all the shop had at the time, vinyl or CD of it is on my to-do list)
As a listening experience vinyl has the edge on kit of comparable quality, but it is a PITA to get it going.

[Zenitram]

Cassettes do sound ace. I went back to them a while ago and they sound massive, even though I know they're compressed and all that.

[ShergoldSnickers]

A friend of mine recently bought the Miles Davis 'Tutu' CD. I have this on vinyl - bought when it was first released - and the vinyl sounds far more dynamic with much more attack to the notes. The bass end is slightly more plentiful on the CD, but isn't any better in quality. The best of my vinyl collection easily surpasses my CD player for detail and the worst sounds decidedly mediocre. Much like my CD collection really. The key is having a good deck and arm with a decent cartridge - there are no shortcuts. If this combination isn't properly engineered you are throwing information away.

For anyone interested, the deck is a Linn with Ittok LV II arm and Adikt cartridge, the CD player is an Arcam alpha 7SE.

Edited December 9, 2012 by ShergoldSnickers

[chris_b]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1355053500' post='1893316']
....I hate vinyl....

....In the end though, I can't help thinking that the people who complain about modern music formats, have lost sight of the most important thing - the actual music itself....
[/quote]

Hate? What has vinyl done to you to deserve that?

I haven't played a record for 30 years but if we're talking about quality of recorded sound then vinyl is still king.

The quality of the sound is such that recorded music is better on vinyl because it isn't compressed, limited and "messed about with" for the convenience of the CD format. That certainly has nothing to do with the quality of the music.

Double the size of a CD and the amount of data on it and CD could well beat vinyl for quality of sound.

CD's and MP3's are all about convenience, but if you really don't want to loose sight of the "important thing", then it'll be vinyl all the way.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='ShergoldSnickers' timestamp='1355057165' post='1893373']For anyone interested, the deck is a Linn with Ittok LV II arm and Adikt cartridge, the CD player is an Arcam alpha 7SE.[/quote]

Well that kicks my Rega's arse sideways but it does for me....... I've got the Marantz 63 KI Sig CD deck, thru Castle Severn 2 speakers, bi-wired.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1355056120' post='1893355']
all this is true of course, that's what makes me think it may be a nostalgia thing, or it could be analogue is cutting out 2 processes which could be responsible for a loss of something, the conversion from anaolgue to digital and back again.
I'll perhaps go out and buy a modern recording on vinyl and see what that sounds like, anybody done this?
[/quote]

The main problem with modern CD production is that just about anyone can do it. In the 70s and 80s if you made a record, the mastering and cutting process involved expensive equipment that only professional facilities had. That put the tools required squarely in the hands of people who know what they were doing and took pride in making a good job of it. My only vinyl release (made in 1980) was a "Porky Prime Cut" one of the best cutting engineers in the business at the time. You were encouraged to attend the mastering/cutting session because that was final process you had any control over and would dictate how the record eventually sounded. Because this was an absolute requirement in the making of a record, then no matter how crappy your studio master was, it would be mastered and cut to sound as good as possible.

Nowadays anyone with a cracked copy of a CD authoring application and some dodgy plugins can make a CD "Master". The pressing plants will accept anything so long as it's technically correct and your credit card has been accepted. While taking the production out of the hands of the professionals is in theory very liberating for those wanting to produce music, it can result in some very poor sounding CDs.

And BTW a vinyl release will have gone through far more production stages (all of which have an influence on the final sound of the record) than a CD pressing.

[Spoombung]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1355053500' post='1893316']
I hate vinyl. Personally I think that well-recorded digital formats are the best thing that has happened to music since the first recording was made.

I can't understand how a format that actually wears out every time it is used (no matter how good the playback equipment is) can be held in such high esteem. I'm certainly not going to shed any tears for the missing hiss, pops, clicks, scratches, wow and flutter, and jumping styluses in my digital music collection.

I do get the impression that the vinyl apologists are either displaying very selective memory, or they were lucky enough to never encounter any of the appalling excuses for pressings that littered vinyl releases from the mid 70s to the late 80s. Records that were full of unwanted aural artefacts from the first playing, pressed on vinyl so thin it nearly qualified as a flexi-disc. Discs pressed so badly off-centre they made you sea-sick when you listened to them.

That feeling of dread when you invariably had to return a faulty pressing to the record shop, knowing that you's have to endure the 3rd degree regarding your vinyl handling and the equipment you were using to play it on before they'd even consider an exchange. And then the disappointment at discovering that either your damaged copy was the only one the shop had, or that all the other copies in the box were equally bad - so you had to either take it with all its faults or go without that particular record.

Vinyl also puts a lot of restrictions on what can actually be reproduced. Anything interesting with phase and stereo imagery is likely to result in a recording that can't even be cut to vinyl let alone played. A digital file has no such issues. And that's before we get into the comparison of bandwidth, dynamic range and signal to noise ratios. Hopefully 5im0n will be along shortly to contribute to this thread with more detail, but a well recorded and masters CD outperforms vinyl all round, and while it's not indestructible it is a good deal more robust.

As for over-compression and the loudness wars blame the record companies (and the artists who seemingly allow it without protest) not the format. Volume on vinyl (within limits) was a trade-off with running time. Louder signal meant wider grooves and consequently less of them inch diameter of the record and therefore less running time. You could get a significant increase in volume by cutting the running time of each side of the album from just under 20 minutes to just over 16. With CD once you reach 0dB (that's all 16 bits set to 1 - all of them set to 0 is silence) there's nowhere else to go. The only way you can make the recording sound louder in digital is to limit the peaks and make the average signal level higher. This of course leads to the over-compressed sound that lots of CDs display. There's no reason for it other than it's what record companies think their consumers want (and a lack of complaints by most consumers). In fact if anything the dynamic range of the CD is too big for home listening. This is certainly a complaint I've heard from some classical music listeners who have difficulty balancing the quiet passages against the loud ones on CD in a typical home environment.

In the end though, I can't help thinking that the people who complain about modern music formats, have lost sight of the most important thing - the actual music itself. So long as the delivery medium isn't intruding on the listening experience then the format being used doesn't matter.
[/quote]

Great points.