CD verses Vinyl

[BigRedX]

[quote name='lowdowner' timestamp='1355074607' post='1893692']
My understanding is that the RIAA is lossless though (to any point worth worrying about) because it's an analogue reshaping of an analogue signal in both directions (the shaping/re-shaping process is not losing information), where as CD compression is most certainly *lossy* i.e. there is information thrown away that is not recoverable. Many would argue that that loss of information during CD sampling isn't audible (but I'd argue against that). Either way, they are definitely not the same thing.
[/quote]

The RIAA is an EQ curve applied at cutting to compensate for the inherent limitations in vinyl as a delivery medium. Basically it boosts the treble and cuts the bass. An opposite curve is then applied at playback - which is why amps need special inputs for record decks and if you connect your deck to a normal line-level input it sounds horrible. While the playback curve improves the signal to noise ratio in the upper range of the signal, the bass which needs to be boosted also increases the noise level in this portion of the audio spectrum and also makes unwanted aural artefacts like rumble more prominent.

[Dingus]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1355074622' post='1893694']
I saw a gadget show, last year I think, where they set up a blind listening test using an allegedly top end HiFi listen to Floyds dark side using vinyl, CD and 320kbps mp3, the mp3 won.
[/quote]

This lack of an apparent gulf in sound quality is what a lot a lot of manufacturers are nervously beginning to realise . Quite a few esoteric hifi amps nowadays have a little input jack on the front so you can plug in your portable MP3 player ect. and play the music on it through your hifi . The resulting sound is often surprisingly good , awakening more and more people to the potential of far cheaper and supposedly inferior digital music devices in a hifi audio system . I do most of my listening from music on my P.C via an inexpensive DAC/ headphone amp to an decent hifi amp and speakers with proper cables ect and the sound quality is very acceptable and very close to my CD player , which admittedly I have had 15 years and is not the last word in up -to-date technology but I keep it because it still sounds good to me compared to many newer players , and it has become a bit of a classic .

Edited December 9, 2012 by Dingus

[lowdowner]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1355075418' post='1893709']
The RIAA is an EQ curve applied at cutting to compensate for the inherent limitations in vinyl as a delivery medium. Basically it boosts the treble and cuts the bass. An opposite curve is then applied at playback - which is why amps need special inputs for record decks and if you connect your deck to a normal line-level input it sounds horrible. While the playback curve improves the signal to noise ratio in the upper range of the signal, the bass which needs to be boosted also increases the noise level in this portion of the audio spectrum and also makes unwanted aural artefacts like rumble more prominent.
[/quote]

Yes, i *know* what an RIAA curve is - I built a circuit to reverse it before feeding a pre-amp. My point was that it isn't 'lossy' like CD sampling is so the comparison isn't so relevant.

Edited December 9, 2012 by lowdowner

[lowdowner]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1355074622' post='1893694']
I saw a gadget show, last year I think, where they set up a blind listening test using an allegedly top end HiFi listen to Floyds dark side using vinyl, CD and 320kbps mp3, the mp3 won.
[/quote]

But some say this can be explained by 'familiarity' i.e. people who drink cheap sweet wine all the time will choose it as their preferred drink when confronted with a glass of blue nun against Chat. Cantenac '62. People choose what they are familiar with because they think *that* is what it should sound like.

I'm not saying that 320Kbps MPEG isn't good, just questioning whether the gadget show's rather simplistic view is very relevant?

[Leonard Smalls]

As has been pointed out, cd (and definitely higher resolution digital formats) is technically superior to vinyl.
However, I find that when played side-by-side, folks still prefer the sound of vinyl.
For me, the sound of a record is more musical, somehow, than a cd. And for the record (!) I have a Clearaudio Reference TT, and Advantage cdp. Perhaps it's the valve phomostage?

[BigRedX]

[quote name='lowdowner' timestamp='1355075939' post='1893719']
Yes, i *know* what an RIAA curve is - I built a circuit to reverse it before feeding a pre-amp. My point was that it isn't 'lossy' like CD sampling is so the comparison isn't so relevant.
[/quote]

But it *IS* lossy in that it's reduced the level of the signal in certain parts of the audio spectrum with respect to the background noise produced by the vinyl medium. You will never get that higher signal to noise ration back again. Just because it's not the same as the losses caused by the sampling rate and doesn't make it any better - just different.

[lowdowner]

[quote name='Leonard Smalls' timestamp='1355076308' post='1893730']
As has been pointed out, cd (and definitely higher resolution digital formats) is technically superior to vinyl.
However, I find that when played side-by-side, folks still prefer the sound of vinyl.
For me, the sound of a record is more musical, somehow, than a cd. And for the record (!) I have a Clearaudio Reference TT, and Advantage cdp. Perhaps it's the valve phomostage?
[/quote]

My mother - who most certainly isn't interested in the technology, claims that vinyl sounds 'faster paced' and 'more alive' than CD's which she claims sounds like the musicians are all a bit dozy... I don't think she gives a hoot about the kit, just what she hears in the music.

[Dingus]

[quote name='Leonard Smalls' timestamp='1355076308' post='1893730']
As has been pointed out, cd (and definitely higher resolution digital formats) is technically superior to vinyl.
However, I find that when played side-by-side, folks still prefer the sound of vinyl.
For me, the sound of a record is more musical, somehow, than a cd. And for the record (!) I have a Clearaudio Reference TT, and Advantage cdp. Perhaps it's the valve phomostage?
[/quote]

That is some nice equipment !

[Captain Rumble]

I have a transport and dac circa £3000, valve amp about same running into a pair of monitor Audio floorstanders and have always been very happy with the sound they produce, but last year I bought a 20 year old Rega Planar 3 fitted a new drive belt and an Adio Technica AT120e cartride and needle £100 put one of my old albums and was blown away. To my ears in my house on the equipment I have there is no comparison the CD,s are good but the vinyl is in a diferent league as for scratches I always looked after my vinyl so not really a problem. I now buy both vinyl and cd versions one for convenience (car,computor etc) and one for listening pleasure. I dont care what the theories are the variouse formats are just tools some of which are better for some things than others imho of course

[Zenitram]

An ice cube on vinyl used to smooth over scratches on a record. No good for the record player, I imagine, but we used to do it all the time in a bar I worked in back in the early 90s, and it certainly seemed to work.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='Zenitram' timestamp='1355077642' post='1893759']
An ice cube on vinyl used to smooth over scratches on a record.[/quote]

Maybe it worked in the same way as those green marker pens you could get when CDs first started which you drew round the rim with & it bounced stray laser beams back into the disc to improve sound quality - after you'd kept the CD in your freezer overnight of course!

[Zenitram]

Er, something like that, yeah.

[Leonard Smalls]

A good record cleaner works wonders - you'd be surprised at the difference it can make to a crackly-sounding record.
£40 buys you a Knosti Discostat, which works pretty well though it's a faff, up to £1000 (if you're made of money) will buy you a VPI vacuum record cleaner.
Of course, any hifi would be incomplete without one of [url=http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina45.htm]THESE[/url] (and no, it isn't a joke website!).

[Dingus]

Some hifi shops have got record cleaning machines and you can take your vinyl discs in and pay to have them cleaned .

[flyfisher]

[quote name='lowdowner' timestamp='1355074290' post='1893685']
As for records 'wearing out' every time you platy them - I have CDs that can no longer be played because the lacquer has become opaque in the sunlight, or because of scratching. On the other hand I have much loved records that I have played many, many, hundreds of times that still sound completely new and fresh.

Anyone who says CDs are 'perfect sound forever' has swallowed a lot of marketing hype
[/quote]

No media lasts forever (and I don't recall saying it did), but you try making a 100% perfect copy of a vinyl record.

[lowdowner]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1355087138' post='1893921']
No media lasts forever (and I don't recall saying it did), but you try making a 100% perfect copy of a vinyl record.
[/quote]

Nor of a live performance, but it doesn't devalue it

Nor of a rose, but it doesn't make it less 'valuable' than a machine-made artificial flower.

Music is for listening to not copying surely?

I'm not sure what the argument is - surely you just listen to both and choose the one you prefer?

[flyfisher]

[quote name='lowdowner' timestamp='1355074607' post='1893692']
My understanding is that the RIAA is lossless though (to any point worth worrying about) because it's an analogue reshaping of an analogue signal in both directions (the shaping/re-shaping process is not losing information), where as CD compression is most certainly *lossy* i.e. there is information thrown away that is not recoverable. Many would argue that that loss of information during CD sampling isn't audible (but I'd argue against that). Either way, they are definitely not the same thing.
[/quote]

Depends what you mean by 'lossless' doesn't it?

I'd accept your point that RIAA processing isn't lossless in the sense of losing information, but it's most certainly a distortion of the recorded and replayed signal, unless you're going to try to convince me that RIAA encoding and decoding can be 100% matched across all manufacturer's equipment (don't bother trying - component tolerances alone prevent such a thing).

I'm not sure what you mean by "CD compression" being 'lossy'. if you mean the use of a compressor during the production phase then that's no different to vinyl audio processing, but the actual data on a CD is not digitally compressed at all - which is why MP3 (and other) data compression can be used effectively at all.

I rip all my CDs to my PC hard drive and have recently given up using MP3 because data storage is so cheap these days that 700MB for a CD is simply not a practical limitation anymore. Of course, internet connection bandwidth is still a limiting factor, which is why MP3 remains so popular. But why anyone would want to buy reduced bit-rate music files with DRM limitations when uncompressed, non-restricted CDs can be bought for the same price, or less, is a mystery to me.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='lowdowner' timestamp='1355076286' post='1893729']
But some say this can be explained by 'familiarity' i.e. people who drink cheap sweet wine all the time will choose it as their preferred drink when confronted with a glass of blue nun against Chat. Cantenac '62. People choose what they are familiar with because they think *that* is what it should sound like.
[/quote]

All of which could well be why you favour the sound of vinyl.

Edited December 9, 2012 by flyfisher

[gelfin]

Ok I'm a complete fan of vinyl and prefer it over CD. However the turntable has to be very good as does the CD player to get satisfying results.
But how about digital streaming players? I don't mean cheapies, ipods etc or mp3.
Get a listen to a good streamer from Linn or Naim playing flac or wav or studio master recordings. In a decent system these will blow away any CD player.

For everyone's info the top spec turntable from Linn the LP12 now costs in the region of £20k

[BigRedX]

And of course consider that any new record made in the last 20 years was most likely digital all the way until the acetate was cut.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='lowdowner' timestamp='1355087560' post='1893928']
Music is for listening to not copying surely?

I'm not sure what the argument is - surely you just listen to both and choose the one you prefer?
[/quote]

My point was correcting your assertion that vinyl can be long lasting while CDs don't last forever. It was nothing to do with listening preference.

[gelfin]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1355088159' post='1893935']
And of course consider that any new record made in the last 20 years was most likely digital all the way until the acetate was cut.
[/quote]

Not all. Metropolis Studios in London often cut direct to acetate live from the recording studio.

[molan]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1355061788' post='1893476']


So is vinyl. Have you never heard of the RIAA curve?
[/quote]

Strangely no - I've never even heard of the RIAA, let alone any curve they've been on!

Given that I have no idea about how CD compression then it should be fairly obvious that I'm no technical acronym expert

Maybe if I rephrase - to my ears a lot of CD's sound harsher and less natural than their vinyl counterparts.

Some CD's seem to 'jump' out at you when you first hear them but, to me, can become wearing with repeated listening.

Just felt to me like this could be a 'compression thing' as that's what I thought a typical side-effect of a compressed mix was

[molan]

[quote name='gelfin' timestamp='1355088146' post='1893934']
Ok I'm a complete fan of vinyl and prefer it over CD. However the turntable has to be very good as does the CD player to get satisfying results.
But how about digital streaming players? I don't mean cheapies, ipods etc or mp3.
Get a listen to a good streamer from Linn or Naim playing flac or wav or studio master recordings. In a decent system these will blow away any CD player.

For everyone's info the top spec turntable from Linn the LP12 now costs in the region of £20k
[/quote]

Wow - that's insane money, hav they really improved the technology of the LP12 that much?

I'd love to compare a new one with my old '80's one

[KingBollock]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1355106134' post='1894202']
Wow - that's insane money, hav they really improved the technology of the LP12 that much?

I'd love to compare a new one with my old '80's one
[/quote]
Which one cost the most? That's the real question isn't it?