Fane Sovereign / Sovereign Pro 15's

[fleabag]

[size=5][font=tahoma,geneva,sans-serif]I wonder if any TS params gurus could run their eyes over the specs of these two 15's from Fane, and recommend one or both for a cabinet i have at home.[/font][/size]

[size=5][font=tahoma,geneva,sans-serif]The cab is 19 3/4" x 24 1/2" x 26 1/2" ( is that 12,822.68 cube inches ? ) My maths looks a bit out there[/font][/size]

[size=5][font=tahoma,geneva,sans-serif]Anyways, the dimensions are of the outside and dont account for the wall thickness of 20mm for the cabs' wood panels, or the port[/font][/size]

[size=5][font=tahoma,geneva,sans-serif]Its ported with a 6" port, 5 1/4" deep[/font][/size]


[size=5]I've seen the Sovereign 15 ( not the pro ) for £88/89 + postage. I havent seen a price for the Sovereign Pro 15, but expect it to be substantially more money[/size]

[size=5]Cheers ![/size]

[size=5]Sovereign 15 in blue - Sovereign Pro 15 in green[/size]

Edited December 9, 2012 by fleabag

[fleabag]

[size=5]Checking the Fane website, I found an LF version and wondered if this would also be a contender ?[/size]

[size=5]This is the LF version of the Sovereign, not the LF version of the Sovereign Pro , to confuse things[/size]

Edited December 9, 2012 by fleabag

[Phil Starr]

Don't go for the LF, it is for PA use and is designed for use with a horn speaker.

There is something wrong with the Xmax figures since both the 15 and the 15 pro have the same coil in the same magnet. X max for the 15 should be at least 4mm and unless they have done something clever with the magnet geometry which I doubt the Xmax should be identical for both speakers. They used to be identical speakers but the pro had a cast chassis, The pro now has a lighter cone hence the changes in fs Vas and Q.

To be honest I suspect tht the figures they give may have other inaccuracies so it will take a while to enter them into winisd and check, I'll do it later if no-one else gets there first.

I suspect the sound of these will be little different, the big advantage of a cast chassis on the pro is a slight improvement in heat dispersal and potentially a longer lasting speaker as the chassis is more rigid. Expect to pay about £30 extra for this.

[fleabag]

Thanks Phil - appreciated. I tried to calc. the proper vol. of my cabinet, and came up with 6.66 cubic ft, but how accurate that is... -

Edited December 9, 2012 by fleabag

[Balcro]

Hello fleabag,

I agree with your original maths for the external dimensions.

I presume the figures you quote are in the format of width x height x depth? When working out the volume, I have assumed the front baffle is recessed into box by about 20mm and the walls of the box are 18mm ply. On that basis, my roughish calculations give an internal volume (accounting for the volume of the port tube) of about 166 litres. So maybe a little over the recommended size for those speakers, but no great problem in itself.

Please confirm the W x H x D format or otherwise. Cheers.

Balcro.

[fleabag]

Hi Balco

W = 24 1/2" H = 26 1/2 " D = 19 3/4" ( as stated, outside measurements )

Yes, the baffle is mounted around 25mm back, and 18mm is probably a more accurate figure for the cab panel thickness

[Balcro]

[quote name='fleabag' timestamp='1355065166' post='1893539']
Hi Balco

W = 24 1/2" H = 26 1/2 " D = 19 3/4" ( as stated, outside measurements )

Yes, the baffle is mounted around 25mm back, and 18mm is probably a more accurate figure for the cab panel thickness
[/quote]

I've re-checked the calcs and now get 163.85litres. If you knock off 3.85 for the volume occupied by the driver itself and intruding handle frames then it's bang on 160 litres. Definitely doable. Further to that, I'll wait to see what Phil Starr has to say as he's probably much further down the road with the winISD calculator.

Balcro.

[fleabag]

Oooh lovely - thanks B

Better give Phil time to woof down his sunday nosebag

Just to add to prices, i've now seen the 15 Sovereign Pro version for £103, so only about £15 more than the non pro version.

The only caveat here at all is that my dual channel amp stuffs out 500 watts per channel @ 4 ohm, and 350 watt @ 8 ohm, ( on paper - i know this isnt real ) and since those Fanes are all 8 ohm,
i'm going to be on the lower figure of ( theoretical ) 350 watts, but i'm assuming the perceived volume difference of 150 watts is not summit to worry about ?

Edited December 9, 2012 by fleabag

[Phil Starr]

Just a thought, some time ago I helped fatgoogle who is a regular contributor to basschat design a cab with one of these speakers which was about 150 litres if my memory is any good. It might be worth while asking what his experience was using this cab. Your cab isn't an old Peavey is it?

[fleabag]

Yeah Phil it is.

[Phil Starr]

Thought so, I've just fitted a new Black Widow into one of these. Of the speakers you mentioned the 15-500 matches your box slightly better than the pro which would ideally go into one roughly half the size of yours. You shouldn't need to re-tune the box either.

You realise the response is going to be fairly flat, no 100Hz peak very little mid-range suckout and only a minor peak at the top end. The -3dB points are 40 Hz and around 3,000. This is going to be deep, neutral sounding and lacking in top end unless you add another speaker. Nothing wrong with that, it might be the sound you are looking for. I'd add a 6" unit with a simple crossover or perhaps a horn if you think the top needs more 'zing'.

[fleabag]

Cheers Phil - appreciate the response. I'm not much of a DIY er, so hows about my BFM Jack 2x10 being the cab that does the mids ? Would that change your mind about maybe using the Pro version instead ?

It would mean running a 1x15 and a 2x10 and you dont always hear good things about this set up, but I'm not looking for perfection. As said earlier, the Sovereigns are all 8 ohm, and so i'd be running a 500 watt 4 ohm BFM and a 350 watt 8 ohm 1x15 ( my 2 channel amp does 500 watt @ 4 ohm and 350 watt @ 8 ohm )

Do you see any problems with that or should i forget the 8 ohm Fanes and look for another 4 ohm 500 watter 15" ?

One more thing, I use a BP8 FX board with 2 channel outputs, and i can run each output at different freqs. I can send the lows to the 1x15 on output 1, and anything from 80hz upto 500hz and above to the 2x10 on output 2

Edited December 11, 2012 by fleabag

[LawrenceH]

The Jack design is very 'voiced', has a big bump in the low mids but a big trough higher up (obviously depends a bit on what drivers you load into it). If you like that sound then the best thing to do would be add another identical cab.
I'd be a bit wary of combining a J210 with another type of cab both running full range, but you could use an active crossover to split the signal and run the 15 as a sub, to take the strain from the J210 drivers at the low end below horn cutoff. Then you needn't worry about finding a 15 that plays nicely higher up.

[Phil Starr]

There's a bit of a thing running on BC about mixing drivers which I don't necessarily agree with. Using multiple drivers does give comb filter effects and this also affects the radiation pattern (direction the sound goes) There is also a tendency for the minor lumps and bumps in frequency response to counteract each other and smooth out the sound but if you like the sound then it's all good, Techies don't tend to like these because they are unpredictable effects and they distort the original sound. It's also hard if you do 'get' the Physics to give advice for which you have no data as you don't want to let anyone down.

To be honest I have no idea what mixing these two speakers will sound like, I've looked at the Jacks design and the frequency response of the Fanes and I know what similar speakers sound like, that's all.

I'll have a go based on that. The jacks horn raises their efficiency above the cutoff point of the horn emphasizing the frequencies above this point and introducing some irregularities. Your 15 won't be as loud as the Jacks above this point though you may feel [b]any [/b]extra bass to be worthwhile. This is a matter of taste, your taste.

The 'sound' of the Jacks and your 1x15 couldn't be more different, the lively 'voiced' design of the jacks and the very neutral 15. you are at two ends of the design spectrum.

having a stereo amp helps a lot, you can use your fx as a crossover and just use the fane to fill in 'missing' bass. This way or you can feed a full range signal to both and get some of the frequency smoothing effect I mentioned. Raising the Jacks to ear level on the 15 will help on stage, Lots of wood to shift though. You'll have 4 set ups to play with then, each speaker alone, together with xover and together without.

The final thing is that if you were going to just use the 15 for low frequencies alone then you might well want to use the LF version which is designed specifically for this job. Less versatile though.

[fleabag]

Thanks a lot Phil - all advice noted. I dont mind shifting the wood

I have tried to find another Jack - mine has 2 Betas @ 250 watt 8 ohm each, so another like that would be ideal, but they dont seem to be selling much anymore. I think the depreciation on those after someone's spent time and money building them is a big factor. At least 50% loss and more.

So, i'm stuck with what i have, but i will try the crossover out of the BP8.... any recommendations as to which Hz value I should send to the BFM ? The crossover allows anything from 80hz and above, upto 500hz and above. I will experiment, but It'd be handy to know your thoughts on this

PS is there much of a volume difference ( that can be heard ) between 350 watt @ 8 ohms and 500 watt @ 4 ohms ?

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='fleabag' timestamp='1355232401' post='1895658']
Thanks a lot Phil - all advice noted. I dont mind shifting the wood

I have tried to find another Jack - mine has 2 Betas @ 250 watt 8 ohm each, so another like that would be ideal, but they dont seem to be selling much anymore. I think the depreciation on those after someone's spent time and money building them is a big factor. At least 50% loss and more.

So, i'm stuck with what i have, but i will try the crossover out of the BP8.... any recommendations as to which Hz value I should send to the BFM ? The crossover allows anything from 80hz and above, upto 500hz and above. I will experiment, but It'd be handy to know your thoughts on this

PS is there much of a volume difference ( that can be heard ) between 350 watt @ 8 ohms and 500 watt @ 4 ohms ?
[/quote]

I'll chip in again, as I own some Jacks (if you want a couple of slightly rough unloaded Jacks 110s, let me know!). For 15 'sub' use I'd try crossing over a bit higher than usual, round about 150Hz-ish as that's where the horn loading starts to take effect. It does rather depend on how loud the 15 is in comparison though and personal taste in the sound, so experimenting a bit higher or lower would be sensible.

There isn't much volume difference between 350 and 500 at all at the best of times, and if the drivers are being pushed to their limits then it will be virtually nothing. If you're driving the power amp to the edge of clipping to get just enough volume at 350 though, then the extra could make more of a tonal difference - for PA use I always liked having a little extra clean headroom.

Btw Phil I agree that people worry more than necessary about mixing cabs, my concern with the Jacks is whether, running full-range, the horn loading would mean phasing issues were shifted higher up to a more critical region, so it could matter more than usual - perhaps unfounded though, since the Jacks would likely be so much more sensitive in this region anyway.

[fleabag]

Cheers for chipping in Lawrence - i'd have been interested in a 210 Jack / Omin 10, but i dont want 3 cabs, if that makes sense Pity they cant be stuck together !!

I will try the crossover experiments, as its very easy to change on the BP8

I see the ( real , heard ) Vol diff between 350 watt and 500 watt is nothing to write home about. Which means i dont have to bother getting a 4 ohm 500 watt 15" to match my 4 ohm 500 watt BFM 2x10

I dont push my amp very hard, as i have decent output ( 500 per chan @ 4 ohm / 350 per chan @ 8 ohm ) and the sensitivity of the speakers is reasonable

[fleabag]

One question on the 2 sovereigns - the non pro is round, and the pro's are an odd shape with flat areas. Is this going to be a problem when trying to mount in a round hole ?

[IMG]http://i46.tinypic.com/2r7bi54.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i45.tinypic.com/66c8ex.jpg[/IMG]

[Phil Starr]

The mounting hole for both speakers is 352mm. the flat edges are for fitting into a narrower cab.

The volume difference between 350W and 500 is 1.5dB. 1dB is just noticeable so this is slightly more than that.

More importantly the Fane is only going to have a sensitivity of 96.5dB/W according to WinISD (said I didn't trust the specs) and the jack will be higher once you reach the horn's pass band. It could be as much as 6db higher but you'll have to check that on the BFM website. You'll just have to fiddle with the volume controls on your amp to balance the two, they will be plenty loud enough.

Lawrence I think you will be right about the phase problems at crossover, there's the horns length to worry about if nothing else and we've discussed the phase problems in the Jacks throat before, always a problem with horn designs. Most of these problems are in areas where the ear is less sensitive so they may be more of a theoretical problem than a practical one. There's also going to be problems with reflections off the floor creating extra comb filter effects. Mixing these two speakers is going to give an unpredictable result but so long as Fleabag realizes there are no guarantees and is happy to experiment then the worse that can happen is that he ends up with a working 1x15 with good deep bass and a neutral sound.

[fleabag]

Cheers Phil and thanks for your efforts - so ignoring the LF version, the cheapy non pro and the pro both state they're 99db on Fanes own website, so neither of these are actually 99db, and both are 96.5db ?

Well as said, I'd prefer another Beta loaded Jack 210, but i may as well be hunting chickens lips. I'm happy to experiment on the cabs, as the cost is not prohibitive. If it turns out to be a mess, i'll just have to sell the 1x15 on, as it will still have a value on its own, and get some friend to build me another Jack

Edited December 12, 2012 by fleabag

[Phil Starr]

To be fair to Fane sensitivity depends upon how it is measured or calculated in the case of my 96.5dB figure. WinISD calculates the output based on the force generated between the magnet and coil and the load the cone and spring of the suspension. It assumes the cone is moving as a piston. In the real world it is only thin paper and flexes at high frequencies and so may well give 99dB under some conditions.

If what you really want is another Jack then LawrenceH has one he doesn't want, I think he put the build diary up on this site so you could see how well or badly it was made, just a thought.

Before I went ahead with this I think I'd want to try the jack with a 1x15 and your amp. You could even use a 15" PA speaker if you used your crossover as it wouldn't let anything through to the horn driver. I've got a 15" Peavey cab you'd be welcome to try the Jack with but you might not be in my part of Southern Blighty. You ought to be able to find someone who'll lend you a 15 for an afternoon though.

[fleabag]

I went ahead and bought the Sovereign as gigs are pending, but I'd still be interested in another Jack. Though Lawrence did mention Jacks in this thread ( I dont see any website link of Lawrences' ? ) they're 2 single empty 1x10's and i'd be after a 2x10

The speaker will be here tomorrow according to Blue Aran, so it will be up and running within a short time
and it will have to do a gig in a weeks time, so we'll see ! I'll try the crossover, as thats my intention, but I'd still prefer to run the BP8 outs as dual channels, same frequencies,
which would require a Jack, but i waited for some weeks for a Jack to appear after buying one here before, but one never did.

I'm in Oxford Phil, so not exactly local but thanks for the offer

Cheers for your help

Edited December 14, 2012 by fleabag

[Phil Starr]

Good luck, I hope you like the sound. It's a decent speaker and a good match for your cab. Let us know what you make of the sound, all the theory in the world isn't a match for actually trying something and since I can't try every speaker personally it's good to get feedback on the ones I haven't tried.

[fleabag]

I'll give you some feedback after next Friday - cheers Phil !!