Double Bass Amplification

[tm486]

Hi,

I've been playing double bass for quite a while, but i've never had the need to amplify it. But I've recently joined a band playing bass guitar and they have expressed an interest in using the double bass for a few songs.

I've bought a piezo pickup and have tried to practice with this at home. My only available amplification at the moment is an Ashdown Mag 300 115 combo with the 115 extension cabinet. Whenever I try to play through this I can never get a sound that I'm anywhere near happy with. It's incredibly bassy especially on the E string even though I turn down the Lows and Low mids completely. I also get a lot of finger noise being amplified.

What I'd like to know is there any way of making this sound any better or will I have to buy a new amp/cab to suit the DB. I'd appreciate any advice and if i need any new kit, recommendations on what might work best.

Cheers,


Tom

[Mr Bassman]

Which pick-up have you got?

You could try a pre-amp like the Fishman Plat Pro

8" or 10" speakers are better for upright

[Gareth Hughes]

Try running your pickup into something like a Boss tuner pedal before you plug into the amp. There's a whole headache about input impedances awaiting you. Have a read at this:

http://www.gollihurmusic.com/faq/11-PREAMPS_DO_YOU_NEED_A_PREAMP_WITH_YOUR_URB_PICKUP.html

[tm486]

[quote name='Mr Bassman' timestamp='1355342982' post='1897268']
Which pick-up have you got?

You could try a pre-amp like the Fishman Plat Pro

8" or 10" speakers are better for upright
[/quote]

I don't know to be honest, I think it's just a cheap one, I was given it as a present.

I've been looking at getting a pre-amp for it but wasn't sure which one would be best.

I'd heard that smaller speakers were better for upright, but don't have any to try it out on. I've got a 1x10 but i won't be able to try the double bass through that for about 6 months or so. I might have to start saving for a few purchases, but where would you start? A new pickup, preamp or maybe start looking at a cab?

Cheers,

Tom

[tm486]

[quote name='Gareth Hughes' timestamp='1355343294' post='1897272']
Try running your pickup into something like a Boss tuner pedal before you plug into the amp. There's a whole headache about input impedances awaiting you. Have a read at this:

[url="http://www.gollihurmusic.com/faq/11-PREAMPS_DO_YOU_NEED_A_PREAMP_WITH_YOUR_URB_PICKUP.html"]http://www.gollihurm...URB_PICKUP.html[/url]
[/quote]

The amplifier has 2 inputs, one with 10kOhm impedance and one with 3.9MOhm impedance, so according to that website it input SHOULD, be ok i think?

Cheers,

Tom

[iiipopes]

You have to decide on the system you want and go for it all at once. I pretty much had to bite the bullet and got a Carvin MB-12 combo, Fishman Full Circle, and fdeck preamp/high pass/buffer all at the same time a few months after getting my double bass and getting it set up. But it was worth it because I've gigged continuously since then a couple of years ago, and it has more than paid for itself, even as a weekend warrior/avocational player.

Here and on the TalkBass forums, you will find a lot of discussion about the various pickups, preamps, heads/combos/speaker cabs available and how they all work together so you can start planning your budget and a system to match.

[Beer of the Bass]

The 3.9Mohm passive input on Ashdown MAG amps will take most piezo pickups quite happily, and I used to regularly use both my old tiltback MAG 200 112 combo and the MAG 300 115 combo that a local venue had as their house amp without difficulties. They're not the most hi-fi sounding thing out there, but you should be able to get workable results with that amp.
It might be worth looking at the type of pickup and how well it is fitted - if it's the bridge wing type, the snugness of the fit is quite critical to getting a decent sound. If it's the type that fits over the top of the bridge with two clips (like the old Fishman BP100 or copies of it), those pretty much always sound awful IMO. I'd suggest identifying your pickup (perhaps post a picture of it) and check the fit of it before you go spending cash on preamps etc.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Beer of the Bass

[Doddy]

I've had a lot of success using a David Gage Realist pickup,running through an Aphex Bass Exciter and into
my Ashdown MiBass rig (the 550 head and mi12 cab).Although for years I used a Roland Cube 100 amp,which
sounded great.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='tm486' timestamp='1355344213' post='1897285']
I don't know to be honest, I think it's just a cheap one, I was given it as a present.

I've been looking at getting a pre-amp for it but wasn't sure which one would be best.[/quote]

If you're getting a lot of bass then the problem probably isn't the input impedance on your amp. If it was, you'd be getting a very thin sound with very little bottom end at all.

It sounds to me that what you're experiencing is simply what piezo pickups sound like on double bass. Especially those that slot in the wing of the bridge. Other designs (such as the Realist that Doddy recommends, which fits under the bridge foot) can give different sounds - the Realist for example gives a more even sound overall but doesn't pick up much of the sound of the string and your fingers, so you lose a lot of the character of the bass. But it does at least have less of that annoying thumpy-and-nasal character that is inherent in all piezo pickups.

Dedicated preamps are useful for tweaking the sound and trying to get the most volume before feedback, but they won't be able to overcome the dominant characteristics of a piezo.

I don't think it's worth buying another amp until you've got your source sound sorted out. Even then the Ashdown might turn out to be perfectly adequate.

So yeah, you need to decide what you need to achieve and then set about trying different options. If you need a lot of volume then perhaps you are stuck with piezos and it might be worth trying a Full Circle or a Realist. Or if you're using steel strings (the core must also be steel, not just the windings) you could try a magnetic pickup like the Schaller or Kent Armstrong, which will go plenty loud but your bass will start to sound more like an electric. If you don't need a ton of volume there are contact mics like the Ehrlund or Schertler which will give a much more faithful reproduction of the sound of your bass, but will be more prone to feedback than a piezo. Although having said that I've been surprised at how loud the Ehrlund will go before it feeds back, but I'm not playing with a full amplified electric band with close-miked drums and so on.

Sorry, it's a bit of a minefield is this.

[Bilbo]

I agree that the 'missing link' in your case is the pre-amp. I got a Fishman Platinum Pro on here for £80 (I think; may have been £90). Really helped contain my sound (manage feedback etc) and give the amp a good crack at doing what it does which is make the bass louder. I play through an Eden Metro combo (2x12) which is not ideal but economics don't allow for an investment in anything else at the moment.

[fatback]

If the pickup is one that fits in the bridge wing, you might try swapping it to the other side. It can make a huge difference.

I wouldn't worry about the amp and speaker too much. As has been said, sort the source first. Maybe try a Bassmax from Gollihur music? Not too expensive for an experiment (you might even get one on BC), and they work well for a lot of people.

The big problem is that it's the combination of bass, pickup and preamp/amp that matter. But the right pickup (and maybe preamp) will get you most of the way.

[Bilbo]

I have on fo these (a 5-string version)

http://www.gollihurmusic.com/product/1426-KANDK_SOUND_DOUBLE_BIG_TWIN_UPRIGHT_BASS_PICKUP.html

[tm486]

Thanks for all the input guys, I think I'm going to start by investing in a decent pickup and preamp as soon as I can afford them. I think the main thing that annoyed me was the fact that no matter what I did with the EQ, it was always really bassy, so something with a HPF or the ability to cut the bass frequencies a lot more than I currently can would be a good start. By the time I can afford that lot i'll probably be able to try it through a few different amps and see what I like the sound of. Mind you, i've just read that someone on talkbass played through an ashdown 2x15 setup and got a sound that they were happy with so I might only need a preamp and pickup.

I think i'll keep an eye out on the for sale section to see if anything comes up.


Cheers,

Tom

Edited December 13, 2012 by tm486

[thisnameistaken]

If it's in the bass side of the bridge try putting it in the other side, and as others have said it's worth doing some experimentation with how tightly it fits in the wing, which can make a difference to the sound you get out. If none of these experiments give you a satisfactory sound then it's time to look at other products, but be warned it's an expensive business and IMHO there's not a massive difference between different piezos, they all have that sort of sound to them.

[tm486]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1355403457' post='1897883']
If it's in the bass side of the bridge try putting it in the other side, and as others have said it's worth doing some experimentation with how tightly it fits in the wing, which can make a difference to the sound you get out. If none of these experiments give you a satisfactory sound then it's time to look at other products, but be warned it's an expensive business and IMHO there's not a massive difference between different piezos, they all have that sort of sound to them.
[/quote]

It has two pads, so one on each side. They both fit quite tightly, but i'll have a play around to see if i can make them any tighter.

I can see it's an expensive business, it's going to be a lengthy process, but i enjoy playing the double bass and don't do it enough perhaps for this reason, so i think it'll be worth it eventually.

Cheers,


Tom

[timbass]

I think it is worth listening to other bassist's amplification set-up and, when you find one you like, ask what kit they are using. It is likely that the pickup and pre-amp are important things to look at, your amplifier is fine. For what it is worth, I tried piezos and hated them, I now have a Schaller pu and an AKG C411P mic through a Bose ToneMatch mixer, Thomastik Spirocore strings. I get a sound that I and my band like, it works for arco as well as for jazzy pizzicato with no feedback problems (that I had in bucket loads before).

[Mr Bassman]

[quote name='tm486' timestamp='1355403924' post='1897901'] It has two pads, so one on each side. They both fit quite tightly, but i'll have a play around to see if i can make them any tighter. [/quote]

Be careful! If it's the wing slot / paddle type you can damage them by being over tight.

If its the BP100 type that uses metal clips it could benefit from being tighter.

[tm486]

[quote name='timbass' timestamp='1355427133' post='1898388']
I think it is worth listening to other bassist's amplification set-up and, when you find one you like, ask what kit they are using. It is likely that the pickup and pre-amp are important things to look at, your amplifier is fine.
[/quote]

That's a good idea, I'll see what recordings I can find online and on this forum, in the mean time if anyone has recordings of a particular setup, i would very much appreciate a sample or a link.


[quote name='Mr Bassman' timestamp='1355427786' post='1898396']
Be careful! If it's the wing slot / paddle type you can damage them by being over tight.

If its the BP100 type that uses metal clips it could benefit from being tighter.
[/quote]

It is the wing slot type you are describing. In that case as they feel pretty snug as they are, I think i'll leave them alone, thanks for the heads up.

Cheers,

Tom