This Jake Bugg kid- really the next big thing?

[mcgraham]

As it's related, and I found it really eye opening, here's a great seminar by a guy called Ralph Murphy. VP of ASCAP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wBOUJ5Mbrk&feature=player_embedded

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1355490825' post='1899109']
Does this mean your ideal activity is : cooking Derren Browns smile in a car while listening to music?
[/quote]

No, it means that Derren Brown is smiling while i cook in a car listening to music.

Cooking a smile? hehehe

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited February 16, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[xilddx]

It's all about the package, the PR and marketing, if he was called Andrew Jones, do you think he'd have been a successful? the name Jake Bugg paints a big picture of something a bit more American and exotic than Andrew Jones, which is a bit more outskirts of Milton Keynes. His music's American sounding, he looks cool, he plays and sings well and his songs are ok, he is MARKETABLE to the masses and everybody wins.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='andyjingram' timestamp='1355490870' post='1899110']
It doesn't wash with me either- it all seems so blatant, and I'm the sort of guy who will avoid listening to something [i]because[/i] it gets overly pushed on me. Hopefully when I hear this guy for the first time I won't know it's him and will get to enjoy my own uncoloured opinion of the music.

No TV is good, too! I wish I could get my wife to agree on that one.

[/quote]

I generally just watch 4OD now when i want to watch something i like... Like Derren Brown, coincidentally.

Yeah, i did the heels in too when something is pushed on me, it's human nature i think.


[quote name='andyjingram' timestamp='1355490870' post='1899110']

Have you ever been to a PR company? They provide a service for a fee. Publicity and insider contacts (dealt with indirectly, to keep their hand) at a price. Time in a great studio with a great engineer and producer work the same way. If, I dunno, Jakes Uncle Kev has the readies to spare, he can easily fund a high quality recording and handle all the invoices from the PR guys to get his nephew in the right place. Doesn't mean Mr Bugg isn't worth that spending, but it does mean that someone without that funding won't be able to get the same exposure.
[/quote]

Ah, i haven't been to a PR company before, but i see what you are saying. It's kinda make the whole thing a bit clearer now

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1355491549' post='1899120']
It's all about the package, the PR and marketing, if he was called Andrew Jones, do you think he'd have been a successful? the name Jake Bugg paints a big picture of something a bit more American and exotic than Andrew Jones, which is a bit more outskirts of Milton Keynes. His music's American sounding, he looks cool, he plays and sings well and his songs are ok, he is MARKETABLE to the masses and everybody wins.
[/quote]

Yes, this is what i mean when i talk about artists that are marketable. It's nearly like the music comes as a bonus, rather than a necessity. They want somebody cool, good looking, who can maybe dance a bit, and would be a bit of a role model for kids. I agree with you 100%, he is totally marketable, but so it Justin Bieber, Nicki Minaj, Cheryl Cole. I'm not comparing him to them, but i just wanted to be clear on what marketable means, it's not always about your ability to song or write songs.

[mcgraham]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1355491549' post='1899120']
It's all about the package, the PR and marketing, if he was called Andrew Jones, do you think he'd have been a successful? the name Jake Bugg paints a big picture of something a bit more American and exotic than Andrew Jones, which is a bit more outskirts of Milton Keynes. His music's American sounding, he looks cool, he plays and sings well and his songs are ok, he is MARKETABLE to the masses and everybody wins.
[/quote]
Bingo-frikkin-lingo!

[quote name='andyjingram' timestamp='1355491534' post='1899118']
Reading through, I think we are saying pretty much the same thing as far as the business is concerned. I think I was responding more to the comment about the public not being stupid (and sub-conciously trying to make sure I hadn't been percieved as suggesting such!). I was agreeing that each and every one of us makes our decision for ourselves, but of course many people only know the music which is provided for them through the usual channels.

[i][b]Someone who can afford big time promo will always do better than someone whose public presence is limited to Myspace/Facebook.[/b][/i]

Unless I really, really misunderstood!
[/quote]
Glad we agree on most parts - I think you're getting a little hung up on the promo aspect. Yes, it makes life a LOT easier, but 'always do better'? Most of the time yes, but not always. Didn't that now-plasticised Hills star Heidi Montag release an album? Huge amounts of money for promo, name already known, pretty... no success... I'm sure we can name other artists that are the same. Guns 'n' Roses? No serious management, no money to speak of to start, AFD album was in the charts for near a year before it got to #1 - it was their hard graft that got them there with crazy hardcore touring, relentless pursuit of fans and unyielding fanbase management. They had to work exceedingly hard, but it was graft and not money that got them where they are now.

[BigRedX]

But the musicians who think think it's just about the music and nothing else are the ones who are playing to just a handful of their friends on one of those multi-band bills, and will never amount to anything more, unless someone outside the band takes an interest in them and they are prepared to listen to and act on what that person has to say.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='mcgraham' timestamp='1355491242' post='1899112']
As it's related, and I found it really eye opening, here's a great seminar by a guy called Ralph Murphy. VP of ASCAP

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wBOUJ5Mbrk&feature=player_embedded[/media]
[/quote]

I really need to watch that, but i've just been handed a hot whiskey, and it isn't sweet enough

But in all honesty, i do need to watch that.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1355492192' post='1899144']
But the musicians who think think it's just about the music and nothing else are the ones who are playing to just a handful of their friends on one of those multi-band bills, and will never amount to anything more, unless someone outside the band takes an interest in them and they are prepared to listen to and act on what that person has to say.
[/quote]

Yup, but they haven't seen that they are good looking, and used that as a selling point.

I do think it's just about the music. Image is import, of course, we live in a society obsessed with it, it's hard to get away from it, but the music always has to come first. Personally, if a tramp wrote a song that i liked, i would buy it from him.

EDIT- I should really have used the term "A down and out".

Edited December 14, 2012 by MiltyG565

[mcgraham]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1355492192' post='1899144']
But the musicians who think think it's just about the music and nothing else are the ones who are playing to just a handful of their friends on one of those multi-band bills, and will never amount to anything more, unless someone outside the band takes an interest in them and they are prepared to listen to and act on what that person has to say.
[/quote]

Admittedly it's on my blog, but here are some highlights from a seminar I went to by a very experienced vocal coach and performance coach from Canada. 5 very simple tips I picked up that can massively change your performance from merely music to something that people want to attend. It takes time, and takes practice, but it plays on the fact that over 50% of your performance to an audience is visual - i.e. they take in far more visually than they actually hear sonically, so you need to practice that.

[url="http://www.markjwgraham.co.uk/500-words-or-less-5-simple-tips-to-bolster-your-performances"]500 words or less: 5 Simple Tips to Bolster Your Performances[/url]

[mcgraham]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1355492521' post='1899152']
I do think it's just about the music. Image is import, of course, we live in a society obsessed with it, it's hard to get away from it, but the music always has to come first.
[/quote]

You're entitled to your opinion, but I think even you would enjoy one musical act more than another if one was a better looking and better performing artist, provided the music of each act was of a sufficient standard - not even saying equal, just that neither could be called bad.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='mcgraham' timestamp='1355492749' post='1899159']
You're entitled to your opinion, but I think even you would enjoy one musical act more than another if one was a better looking and better performing artist, provided the music of each act was of a sufficient standard - not even saying equal, just that neither could be called bad.
[/quote]

Of course, of course, who wouldn't? but even still, when you have your iPod or whatever, what really matters? the image? but you can't see them. The music is what really matters if you are an artist.

[risingson]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1355491843' post='1899130']
Yes, this is what i mean when i talk about artists that are marketable. It's nearly like the music comes as a bonus, rather than a necessity. They want somebody cool, good looking, who can maybe dance a bit, and would be a bit of a role model for kids. I agree with you 100%, he is totally marketable, but so it Justin Bieber, Nicki Minaj, Cheryl Cole. I'm not comparing him to them, but i just wanted to be clear on what marketable means, it's not always about your ability to song or write songs.
[/quote]

All music is a subjective topic, we all like different things but it's fair to say that it's got to be less than half at what investors in new music look for. We'd be completely kidding ourselves if we were to believe that artists are added to label's rosters on the strengths of their music alone, after all how could the labels expect to make any kind of return? It needs to sell, they need an image to work with. Clearly someone out there thinks that Jake Bugg has this.

Lana Del Ray, I'd heard of her and seen her before I'd even heard her music. She was propelled to stardom on the strength of literally nothing, she released her album a few months after. It's increasingly the framework that new artists are developed, it has little to do with music at all.

[xilddx]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1355491843' post='1899130']
Yes, this is what i mean when i talk about artists that are marketable. It's nearly like the music comes as a bonus, rather than a necessity. They want somebody cool, good looking, who can maybe dance a bit, and would be a bit of a role model for kids. I agree with you 100%, he is totally marketable, but so it Justin Bieber, Nicki Minaj, Cheryl Cole. I'm not comparing him to them, but i just wanted to be clear on what marketable means, it's not always about your ability to song or write songs.
[/quote]

This is MASS marketable, if you subscribe to the notion that the average popular music consumer is a lazy, generally ignorant sheep-like fleshy substance with little ability to do much more than dance, and worship and copy their idols' make-up, hair and sartorial elegance, then no wonder we have our current short-termist profiteering music industry, and no different than KFC, McDonald's, Asda, etc. They make money out of clever marketing and the 'public's' inability to process or be interested in anything they are not familiar with. Try getting your average KFC muncher to try some sustainably sourced sashimi 'I ain't eetin raw fackin fish yer c**t!'. And yet there remains a decent western market for sushi, albeit not real sushi in most cases. Same with music.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1355492884' post='1899163']
All music is a subjective topic, we all like different things but it's fair to say that it's got to be less than half at what investors in new music look for. We'd be completely kidding ourselves if we were to believe that artists are added to label's rosters on the strengths of their music alone, after all how could the labels expect to make any kind of return? It needs to sell, they need an image to work with. Clearly someone out there thinks that Jake Bugg has this.

Lana Del Ray, I'd heard of her and seen her before I'd even heard her music. She was propelled to stardom on the strength of literally nothing, she released her album a few months after. It's increasingly the framework that new artists are developed, it has little to do with music at all.
[/quote]

Yup, i understand that. But is anyone disputing that Cheryl Cole can sing? Because i really doubt that she can, but yet, she is a recording artist. I think her act lies more in dancing and just being a good looking girl (as harsh as that sounds) than being a performing musician or singer. Maybe she should look at other careers that would use those attributes and skills without forcing her to mime all the time?

[xilddx]

[quote name='mcgraham' timestamp='1355492591' post='1899154']
Admittedly it's on my blog, but here are some highlights from a seminar I went to by a very experienced vocal coach and performance coach from Canada. 5 very simple tips I picked up that can massively change your performance from merely music to something that people want to attend. It takes time, and takes practice, but it plays on the fact that over 50% of your performance to an audience is visual - i.e. they take in far more visually than they actually hear sonically, so you need to practice that.

[url="http://www.markjwgraham.co.uk/500-words-or-less-5-simple-tips-to-bolster-your-performances"]500 words or less: 5 Simple Tips to Bolster Your Performances[/url]
[/quote]

Bang on. People see and feel pop music, the hearing comes later, and finally the smell of rancid pop star that's been left out the fridge too long.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1355493077' post='1899165']
This is MASS marketable, if you subscribe to the notion that the average popular music consumer is a lazy, generally ignorant sheep-like fleshy substance with little ability to do much more than dance, and worship and copy their idols' make-up, hair and sartorial elegance, then no wonder we have our current short-termist profiteering music industry, and no different than KFC, McDonald's, Asda, etc. They make money out of clever marketing and the 'public's' inability to process or be interested in anything they are not familiar with. Try getting your average KFC muncher to try some sustainably sourced sashimi 'I ain't eetin raw fackin fish yer c**t!'. And yet there remains a decent western market for sushi, albeit not real sushi in most cases. Same with music.
[/quote]

Well now, just because somebody likes KFC doesn't mean that they don't also like sushi. That's a bit of a generalisation. I think it's more uncultured people you are thinking of, who spend all day walking around the estate (a housing estate, nothing fancy) in tracksuits, then go out for dinner at KFC, then spend the rest of the evening, drinking in the street.

[mcgraham]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1355492876' post='1899162']
Of course, of course, who wouldn't? but even still, when you have your iPod or whatever, what really matters? the image? but you can't see them. The music is what really matters if you are an artist.
[/quote]
Yes and no. Yes in that you can't see them, No in that I do have an image in my head. If their actual image doesn't match up, I find it jarring. I like think I'm a discerning listener, but even I then stop listening to someone in the same way if I am jarred in that way - I don't stop completely, it just changes what I want to do with it. It's human nature! But for less discerning listeners, or even just different listeners, such a jarring experience may put them off listening to that music, because their even unconscious expectations were not met.

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1355493077' post='1899165']
This is MASS marketable, if you subscribe to the notion that the average popular music consumer is a lazy, generally ignorant sheep-like fleshy substance with little ability to do much more than dance, and worship and copy their idols' make-up, hair and sartorial elegance, then no wonder we have our current short-termist profiteering music industry, and no different than KFC, McDonald's, Asda, etc. They make money out of clever marketing and the 'public's' inability to process or be interested in anything they are not familiar with. Try getting your average KFC muncher to try some sustainably sourced sashimi 'I ain't eetin raw fackin fish yer c**t!'. And yet there remains a decent western market for sushi, albeit not real sushi in most cases. Same with music.
[/quote]
While overly cynical (IMO), this is more like it. Companies know what people want, they track it, monitor it, and know how to tweak products individual artists bring to them to increase sales accordingly to what will sell. Basically psychology and business 101 - know your market!

[mcgraham]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1355493167' post='1899168']
Yup, i understand that. But is anyone disputing that Cheryl Cole can sing? Because i really doubt that she can, but yet, she is a recording artist. I think her act lies more in dancing and just being a good looking girl (as harsh as that sounds) than being a performing musician or singer. Maybe she should look at other careers that would use those attributes and skills without forcing her to mime all the time?
[/quote]
Does it matter? The finished product sells. What about authors that can write a great book in a month versus those that can write an equally great book but takes them 2 years? One has to get through a lot more first drafts and retakes of sections than the other, one might be a more skilled writer, but at the end of the day it's the finished product we're interested in, not the innate skill of the person who wrote it.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='mcgraham' timestamp='1355492591' post='1899154']
Admittedly it's on my blog, but here are some highlights from a seminar I went to by a very experienced vocal coach and performance coach from Canada. 5 very simple tips I picked up that can massively change your performance from merely music to something that people want to attend. It takes time, and takes practice, but it plays on the fact that over 50% of your performance to an audience is visual - i.e. they take in far more visually than they actually hear sonically, so you need to practice that.

[url="http://www.markjwgraham.co.uk/500-words-or-less-5-simple-tips-to-bolster-your-performances"]500 words or less: 5 Simple Tips to Bolster Your Performances[/url]
[/quote]

All good stuff - I'll add a warning about point 5 for people who also play an instrument like guitar or bass. Some years ago I used to play in a band that would specifically rehearse in a room where one wall was all mirror, in order to be able to hone our stage performance. One thing that had been mentioned to me was that I spent too much time looking at what my hands were doing when I was playing and not enough looking at the audience. After a couple of weeks I found that I was spending much less time looking at my hands and more time looking ahead and checking how the band looked in the mirror. Unfortunately come our first gig, I discovered that I'd been unconsciously checking my hand positions in the mirror, and once that had been replaced by a non-reflective audience, I was back to looking down at what my hands were doing all over again.

[xilddx]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1355493419' post='1899175']
Well now, just because somebody likes KFC doesn't mean that they don't also like sushi. That's a bit of a generalisation. I think it's more uncultured people you are thinking of, who spend all day walking around the estate (a housing estate, nothing fancy) in tracksuits, then go out for dinner at KFC, then spend the rest of the evening, drinking in the street.
[/quote]

Maybe, but that doesn't change the fact that anyone who eats KFC is either ignorant or uncaring about the attendant animal welfare issues. Why do you think Tesco sell cheap Danish bacon pumped full of water to ignorant consumers? Because they don't think the general public would enjoy real bacon because it would taste too strong and they wouldn't buy it. Same with music, big music companies have to sell sh*t to fund the next big sh*t, some of the better ones will release some more obscure music aswell, but it doesn't really pay, they are taking a risk.

Do you think Holzt's The Planets and Vivaldi's Four Seasons are so popular because of the music? Of course not, they are the only orchestral music CDs in some people's houses because they can say 'See! This sounds like how I imagine Mars to be! Amazing innit!' You have to feed people or they won't get it, they need clues to enjoy the music. In pop it's about sex, clothes, shooes, make up, dance moves. Gangnam f***ing Style! I bet you can see that video in your head, but what do you remember of the music?

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='mcgraham' timestamp='1355493539' post='1899181']
Does it matter? The finished product sells. What about authors that can write a great book in a month versus those that can write an equally great book but takes them 2 years? One has to get through a lot more first drafts and retakes of sections than the other, one might be a more skilled writer, but at the end of the day it's the finished product we're interested in, not the innate skill of the person who wrote it.
[/quote]

But Cheryl Cole still can't sing, no matter how many takes she does.

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited February 16, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1355494318' post='1899199']
Maybe, but that doesn't change the fact that anyone who eats KFC is either ignorant or uncaring about the attendant animal welfare issues. Why do you think Tesco sell cheap Danish bacon pumped full of water to ignorant consumers? Because they don't think the general public would enjoy real bacon because it would taste too strong and they wouldn't buy it. Same with music, big music companies have to sell sh*t to fund the next big sh*t, some of the better ones will release some more obscure music aswell, but it doesn't really pay, they are taking a risk.

Do you think Holzt's The Planets and Vivaldi's Four Seasons are so popular because of the music? Of course not, they are the only orchestral music CDs in some people's houses because they can say 'See! This sounds like how I imagine Mars to be! Amazing innit!' You have to feed people or they won't get it, they need clues to enjoy the music. In pop it's about sex, clothes, shooes, make up, dance moves. Gangnam f***ing Style! I bet you can see that video in your head, but what do you remember of the music?
[/quote]

Mate, some people just need cheap fried chickens.

If all that's true, why aren't you working in PR?