Sound at big venues

[JamesBass]

As a gigging bassist at the small venues in my local scene I've come across some really shoddily mixed gigs, gigs where all you hear are drums, gigs with FAR too much bass in the mix and not enough clarity and some where the levels have just been far too high and left me with headaches and tinnitus, doesn't help that I've only just started wearing ear plugs religiously! But anyway last night I went with my girlfriend to see Ellie Goulding at Southampton Guildhall, now I've got a guilty pleasure for Ellie Goulding and was seriously excited to see her live, thought what better opportunity to see how the POP genre sounds and performs live! But, I was seriously let down, I've seen many bands play at venues right from Pub size all the way up to Festival fields as I'm sure we all have, but, I was honestly appalled by the quality of Southampton Guildhalls sound quality, I know it has a hit and miss reputation but last night was a new low for me! The support act were a band called Sons and Lovers a sort of Indie Rock band, who seemed nervous and as a result were slightly out of time with one and another but we can sympathise with that, yet when it came to the pretty competent lead guitarist to play his solo I couldn't hear him at all! All I heard were the bloody drums and the out of time bass! Shocking sound mixing and then when Ellie played we were subjected to this beautiful singer straining to be heard over her backing band! Poor girl sounded like she had a cold as it was yet heres the sound guy absolutely whacking the life out of the sound system by boosting the bass and drums! It had pretty much no treble and no mids half the time! Won't be going back there ever again! Rant over

Anyone ever had a similar experience of supposedly big venues having atrocious sound?

[jakenewmanbass]

'Play to the room' is a skill that is being lost.

[JTUK]

I'd expect that artist to struggle at the best of times.... so I would think her management should be well aware of a good and sympathetic sound.

I have no idea why they didn't that.... were you able to move about the venue to get an optimum sound..??
But..too loud is the killer anyway...as there is nowhere else to go with it..

[JamesBass]

Yep, so many artists just wanna turn up to 11 and destroy peoples faces or they wanna just run around and look like they are more likely to be in a gym doing a work out session! I know there's a certain aspect of stage show but sometimes there's just too much going on and not enough music.

JTUK I did move about started off down the front as my girlfriend wanted an optimum view of Ellie Goulding, I tried the bar area, the middle of the stage back of the room and right by the sound desk where the sound guy wasn't even listening but playing Angry Birds! Talk about unprofessional! It got better by the sound desk but still wasn't anywhere near as good as it should be especially when the tickets were £22.50! I like Ellie Goulding she's different while still being samey she's got a great tone that would suit some blues or some rock ballads!

[JTUK]

I would expect the artists people to not let this happen.

They should know their artist, warts and all... and everyone will have them.. so they should legislate for this to
make their artist show in the best light.
Some go too far and get diva/prima donna labels and some may deserve it...but this sort of thing IS the artists career
and should not be compromised.
I wouldn't epxect my singer to be happy if they weren't getting a good sound...and certainly if the feedback wasn't good about the sound.
They are many things to control..and many things that you just can't..but this seems a pretty basic thing to f*** up, IMO.

We have played some 'challenging' venues but if the feedback about the technical side is bad then we aren't happy AT ALL.
There are just some things that aren't very forgivable..and I would expect the management to be on the ball.
Once is a bad night and a mistake... but not to be repeated.

[Bankai]

Southampton Guildhall has terrible acoustics. And that's coming from experience.

[jazzyvee]

I am regularly disappointed with the sound, especially bass, at large venues and festivals. If the bass player is moving his fingers, I want to hear different notes being played not a dull indistinct sound flooded out by the bass drum which is what usually happens.


Jazzyvee

[wateroftyne]

It drives me nuts. It seems to be standard practice to murder the lows with bowel-rearranging subs.

Whenever I work with a PA company who keep the bottom end clean, it's revelation.

[Cameronj279]

SECC was fairly pants when I went recently for Marilyn Manson and Rob Zombie. Bass was almost impossible to hear for both bands.

Saying that, not all big venues are bad. I saw Rammstein at the Manchester MEN Arena and it was the best gig sound-wise out of any gig I've been to this year (out of around 25+)

[51m0n]

Best sound I've heard in a large(ish) venue ever was Travis at Brighton Center.

I'd just about given up hope for live sound but they had it exactly nailed, exceptional sound all night, brilliant guy on FOH mixing throughout, fair sounded like the album.

Next best was probably Dr John at The Dome (usually only average due to it being a rather difficult room).

Every time I go to London to see a gig in a larger venue it sounds rubbish, most small club venues have a soundguy bereft of a clue as to what to do with a live band, and most bands in pubs are just waaaaayyyy too loud...

[Lozz196]

Worst I`ve heard in the last few years was The Darkness at The NEC in Birmingham (2006).

Best I`ve heard in the last few years was The Darkness at The Shepherds Bush Empire (2011).

Maybe different sound guy/sound sytems/lack of cocaine was making the difference.

[steve-bbb]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1355960856' post='1905177']
and most bands in pubs are just waaaaayyyy too loud...
[/quote]

but then thats not just the FOH sound guy/girl .... 9/10 its as much to do with the pesky guitarers who wont turn down and deafen the rest of the band let alone the audience

[xgsjx]

[quote name='steve-bbb' timestamp='1355991544' post='1905296']
but then thats not just the FOH sound guy/girl .... 9/10 its as much to do with the pesky guitarers who wont turn down and deafen the rest of the band let alone the audience
[/quote]

That's a problem I've come up against in just about every guitar based band I've been in.

Their excuse is usually "I need it at 11 to get My sound", even though their "sound" is normally guff at that volume.

[LiamPodmore]

Best sound i've ever experienced at gigs were Shinedown at Apollo and Blink 182 at the MEN/Manchester Arena as it's now called. Perfectly balanced mixes for both, and mighty bass tones. I wasn't anywhere near the desk (About 10ft infront of the left hand side subs at Shinedown and 2nd tier at Blink 182) either so must've been some damn fine mixing work.

Worst was possibly at a 30 Seconds to Mars at Manchester Central/GMEX, but only for the opening act which makes me think it was just a bit of sly mixing from the engineer, or the bands engineer was cr*p and couldn't get a passable mix for that room. Everyone else that night sounded immense.

Liam

[steve-bbb]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1355992032' post='1905308']
That's a problem I've come up against in just about every guitar based band I've been in.

Their excuse is usually "I need it at 11 to get My sound", even though their "sound" is normally guff at that volume.
[/quote]

and then they whine on about how pure their tone is and its not the same if you use effects and amp modelling etc etc etc blah blah blah blah blah whine whine whine

[51m0n]

Heavy handed drummers are as much to blame as overly zealous guitarists with 4x12s or even 2x12s cranked.

Best guitar sound in a band mixing itself for a 300 seater venue the guitarist had a tiny littel Fender 6watt tube amp and he was smoking hot, brilliant tone and completely under control....

[thumperbob 2002]

To put the blame upon the band or guitards etc for big gigs is missing the point. Totally the sound guys fault, worked with some great ones and unfortunately some bad ones. Same in any profession- except the legal profession where they are all crap!

You can blame the band in part for smaller gigs though.

Give the sound man a Zoom H2 in soundcheck and check the recording for what you want and Communicate! Will change when the punters come in anyway ( usually gets better )-or so I convince myself.

[neepheid]

I'm unlikely go to another gig at the Music Hall in Aberdeen. It seems no-one is capable of getting a decent sound in there. For popular beat combos anyway. The last time I was there was for a Bloc Party gig and strangely enough it was guitar I was having difficulty making out with any clarity. Of course it didn't help that some muppet threw a coin at the singer, the band left the stage, were persuaded to come back but surprisingly didn't seem into it any more. That's not the venue's fault, just some of the nuckle-dragging, football song chanting, beer cup throwing element doing the usual, ruining it for everyone else. Does every place have them?

Strangely enough the Music Hall sounds great with an orchestra. Maybe that's what it was designed for...

Furthermore, the AECC is a tin barn with all the acoustic charm of such a structure. I went to see Iron Maiden there and stupid boy I forgot my plugs. I felt like I was underwater for about 2 days afterwards, it was brutal. My fault, but it did seem excessively loud and boomy.

Edited December 20, 2012 by neepheid

[51m0n]

[quote name='thumperbob 2002' timestamp='1355998183' post='1905385']
To put the blame upon the band or guitards etc for big gigs is missing the point. Totally the sound guys fault, worked with some great ones and unfortunately some bad ones. Same in any profession- except the legal profession where they are all crap!

You can blame the band in part for smaller gigs though.

Give the sound man a Zoom H2 in soundcheck and check the recording for what you want and Communicate! Will change when the punters come in anyway ( usually gets better )-or so I convince myself.
[/quote]

Absolutely - up to a point. (My earlier comment was regarding smaller gigs in pubs)

If the band on stage present the sound engineer with way too much level and spill (especially bass end spill) it can effectively tie his hands, even in surprisingly large venues.

Its a tricky job getting stage levels right fo rthe band so they can all hear each other and still not make it very hard for the soundguy.

Inner ear monitoring can really help with this (naturally) - but only if the guitarist doesn still require his 412 to be cranked up to face melting volumes....

[Monckyman]

Band I work with a lot as a monitor man recently changed their bassist, who likes a quieter vol on stage (ampeg 810 rig).
The Marshall stack fixated guitarist has recently changed to a Blackstar combo, (with power soak,so sod the amp on full sh*te),and the drummer has a new range of custom snares.
All these things make the onstage sound a LOT better, clearer, less EQing to do, and much more presentable for the FOH to manage.
Now these guys all know what they are up to, and so did the techies, but sometimes you fall in to ways that don`t help the sound effort and it only becomes apparent when you inadvertently improve it by changing out some equipment.

Edit to say, obviously larger acoustically tragic venues exist and task us all,but other than employ the best engineers with loads of P.A there`s not much else to do.
But if you get the stage wrong, you won`t get the FOH right, and that applies all the way down to pub bands.

Be Vigilant Comrades!

Edited December 20, 2012 by Monckyman

[51m0n]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1355999682' post='1905415']
Band I work with a lot as a monitor man recently changed their bassist, who likes a quieter vol on stage (ampeg 810 rig).
The Marshall stack fixated guitarist has recently changed to a Blackstar combo, (with power soak,so sod the amp on full sh*te),and the drummer has a new range of custom snares.
All these things make the onstage sound a LOT better, clearer, less EQing to do, and much more presentable for the FOH to manage.
Now these guys all know what they are up to, and so did the techies, but sometimes you fall in to ways that don`t help the sound effort and it only becomes apparent when you inadvertently improve it by changing out some equipment.

Edit to say, obviously larger[b][i] acoustically tragic venues[/i][/b] exist and task us all,but other than employ the best engineers with loads of P.A there`s not much else to do.
But if you get the stage wrong, you won`t get the FOH right, and that applies all the way down to pub bands.

Be Vigilant Comrades!
[/quote]

Brilliant !

[Jon B]

my old pub rock band was allways accused of playing way too loud (rightly) but i guess its what teenage rockers do, though i recently had a jam session with my old drummer, and he still blew my ears off....'king drummers lol

Edited December 20, 2012 by Jon B

[Leonard Smalls]

Best sounds I've ever heard, live, were Kraftwerk - wherever they play - and at the Jazz Cafe.
Kraftwerk brought their own PA and sound mixer, Jazz Cafe have a decent quality PA and a sound man who balances the sound at a lower level then brings it up if necessary.
I've complained to mixers before that the level at a sound check is too high, and the response is usually "when it's full of people it'll sound a lot quieter". Then they turn it up some more, which means their amps are clipping making it sound even louder and more distorted.