Drugs and the musician

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='Jayben' timestamp='1356709456' post='1912761']
I disagree, simply because everyone picks and chooses the laws they want to follow,[/quote]

It's the use of the word "everyone" that is wrong. Not "everyone" does, just "some".
The other point to consider is that not everyone knows all of the laws - even though ignorance of the law is not an excuse in law. So many may disobey laws out of ignorance of them, rather than willingly dis-obeying them or picking and choosing.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1356709832' post='1912768']
It's the use of the word "everyone" that is wrong. Not "everyone" does, just "some".[/quote]

'Some' being the overwhelming majority. Would you say more than half of the drivers you know have never broken the speed limit or parked illegally, for example? Apparently 1/3 of people over 16 in Britain have tried smoking cannabis, so I'd be surprised if anything other than a tiny fraction have never knowingly broken any laws at all.

I think there are plenty of good people about, but I don't think any of them are entirely law-abiding.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1356707874' post='1912729']...There is a difference between freedom and doing what ever you like whenever you like. If everybody just did whatever they liked, there would be anarchy...[/quote]

Perhaps so, but this is an over-simplified premise. It's more a question of doing what is right (by whatever yardstick one accepts...), not "doing what ever you like whenever you like...". Anarchy (that's to say: self-government, at least to me...) does not absolve one of one's responsabilities, quite the opposite. It can sometimes be a heavy burden.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1356707874' post='1912729']...We set laws as an absolute standard that we expect people to behave to, not as guidelines...[/quote]

...and I reject the "we" part of this. I am able to shoulder this responsability for myself, and behave as my principles and conscience allow me. You all have this same 'freedom', of course. These principles came from my observations of the world, my education and the example of my parents.(...or, to quote the poet... "I don't need no stinkin' laws."...). I don't do 'as I please', but rather 'as I should'.
We don't need to bicker about this, I was only intending to state that 'Law' is an artificial concept, not an absolute.

Edited December 28, 2012 by Dad3353

[TimR]

[quote name='Jayben' timestamp='1356709456' post='1912761']
...

Like someone has said before, the only reason the general populace don't burgle each other's houses is because it's been socially unacceptable to do so for hundreds of years. Interesting to think whether that's society dictating legislation, or legislation dictating society, a fabricated social contract, if you will.

Similarly (and back on topic) with musicians, particularly ones about my age and younger, alcohol/nicotine/cannabis use and abuse is so prevalent (certainly in my area) that those who choose to follow legislated prescribed rules (not drinking under 18, not smoking under 16 etc.) are actively and publicly ridiculed - it's become socially unacceptable to abide by the law.

...
[/quote]

Well the reason I don't burgle peoples houses and park on yellow lines is because I wouldn't want other people doing it to me. The reason why we have a law is because, as you say, not everyone has a decent moral compass. I would still hope if someone finds a wallet full of money thy return it intact and don't just pocket the money and say they found it like that.

The alcohol and cigarette laws are very strange beasts. The only firm law about alcohol is you cannot give it to children under the age of 5. Drinking alcohol under the age of 14 and smoking under the age of 16? (is that still right) is illegal in a public place.
And being drunk in a public place no matter how old you are is illegal. Now, in my opinion (and probably the majority of people) those rules all need to be revised. I will admit to breaking the drinking alcohol under 18 in a pub law as we used to drink regularly at 15 when acompanied by a responsible(?) adult, before ID cards were introduced, but since then it had become massively abused as pubs are now only concerned with getting as much alcohol into people as possible.

[TimR]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1356710518' post='1912785']
...

...and I reject the "we" part of this. I am able to shoulder this responsability for myself, and behave as my principles and conscience allow me. You all have this same 'freedom', of course. These principles came from my observations of the world, my education and the example of my parents.(...or, to quote the poet... "I don't need no stinkin' laws."...). I don't do 'as I please', but rather 'as I should'.
We don't need to bicker about this, I was only intending to state that 'Law' is an artificial concept, not an absolute.
[/quote]

No bickering. Just debate.

I use 'we' as a society, not 'we' as individuals. A large minority of the country are not intelligent enough to self police themselves. They aren't as privileged as you and I to have had a decent parental upbringing. In an ideal world and society we wouldn't need any law enforcement.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1356710355' post='1912779']
'Some' being the overwhelming majority. Would you say more than half of the drivers you know have never broken the speed limit or parked illegally, for example? Apparently 1/3 of people over 16 in Britain have tried smoking cannabis, so I'd be surprised if anything other than a tiny fraction have never knowingly broken any laws at all.

I think there are plenty of good people about, but I don't think any of them are entirely law-abiding.
[/quote]

You'll find that whatever statistics you used to state that "some" being a majority is flawed. That's why so many people want referendums on things. It's all an election is; it maybe doesn't work great most of the time but it's all we have. That's to say, it's better than Joe Bloggs saying he had a great spliff last week & this time didn't run anyone over while under the influence so let's make it legal.

Similarly, "apparently 1/3 of 16 year olds etc etc" yeah, I'm sure - just like the adverts that "89% of women prefer X over Y" but then in the small print it says out of a survey of 117 women taken by ABC Pollsters. They mean nothing. They're weighted in favour of whatever point you want to make by asking the right question of the right people in the right area at the right time.

[Jayben]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1356710562' post='1912786']
Well the reason I don't burgle peoples houses and park on yellow lines is because I wouldn't want other people doing it to me. The reason why we have a law is because, as you say, not everyone has a decent moral compass. I would still hope if someone finds a wallet full of money thy return it intact and don't just pocket the money and say they found it like that.[/quote]

Precisely my point - the social contract has been long established that it's not something that you should do, and laws have been introduced so as to reflect and reinforce that. This is in opposition to the idea that laws are introduced in order to create a specific social contract or behaviour, although I suppose you could argue against that idea with the concept of speeding and drink-driving.

[Dad3353]

I don't wish to de-rail this thread too much; another could be opened if things get too far from OT...

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1356710880' post='1912793']...I use 'we' as a society, not 'we' as individuals...[/quote]

...which I maintain is untenable; 'society' applies to the world of stats, not individuals. It's a 'virtual' concept (imho, naturally...) which cannot be applied to people.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1356710880' post='1912793']...A large minority of the country are not intelligent enough to self police themselves. They aren't as privileged as you and I to have had a decent parental upbringing...[/quote]

You may or may not be right in this (I suspect that you are...), but this changes nothing, in my view. Right is right, and my self-claimed freedom is no more valuable than that of another. I may not approve of other's behaviour, but I cannot deny anyone the freedom that I give myself. It's tough, but that's equality, in my book.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1356710880' post='1912793']...In an ideal world and society we wouldn't need any law enforcement.
[/quote]

Quite so, and that's the world I'm living in. Not striving for, nor wishing for, but applying. I'd stop short of martyrdom, and am far from perfect, but I will not live in any other way just because it's not ideal. Make it ideal, and it will be.
Enough, already; I'm a lousy preacher, and am not likely to either change anyone here, nor change myself (too close to perfection for that..! If only I did not have this excess of modesty... )
I'll leave quietly...

[JellyKnees]

I smoke a little bit of dope now and then. Why should I be criminalised for that?

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1356701368' post='1912587']
Because it's illegal.
[/quote]

What? It should be illegal because it's illegal? I was questioning the rational basis for the illegality of cannabis and that's your answer?

[quote]A civilised society doesn't pick & choose which laws it wants to follow or not. [/quote]

Even if the law is an ass? You would blindly obey ANY law? Really?

[quote]
Isolated cases of "I'm alright" don't outweigh the cases of the majority
[/quote]


But the majority of cannabis users that I have known are 'alright'.. sorry, but this is guff.

Edited December 28, 2012 by JellyKnees

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='JellyKnees' timestamp='1356712078' post='1912817']
I smoke a little bit of dope now and then. Why should I be criminalised for that?

What? It should be illegal because it's illegal? I was questioning the rational basis for the illegality of cannabis and that's your answer[/quote]

But you didn't; you stated that you often commit an illegal act, why are you then a criminal. One generates the other, just as much as if you'd been going the wrong way down a one-way street, nicked a bottle of vodka out of Asda or robbed the crown jewels. Not any of them on a par with the other - but all illegal acts.

[quote name='JellyKnees' timestamp='1356712078' post='1912817']Even if the law is an ass? You would blindly obey ANY law? Really?[/quote]
I obey any law that is relevant to my actions at that time and that which I am aware exists; it's as much as any responsible person does. With your attitude it's as well you didn't own a shop in the riots or have a job that replied on one of the destroyed ones.

[quote name='JellyKnees' timestamp='1356712078' post='1912817']But the majority of cannabis users that I have known are 'alright'.. sorry, but this is guff.[/quote]
So you hang out with a gang of users & you take that as a general consensus for 60 million people? Seriously?

Edited December 28, 2012 by Big_Stu

[JellyKnees]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1356712424' post='1912824']
I obey any law that is relevant to my actions at that time and that which I am aware exists; it's as much as any responsible person does. With your attitude it's as well you didn't own a shop in the riots or have a job that replied on one of the destroyed ones.[/quote]

So you would obey any law then? You are the very model citizen.

[quote]So you hang out with a gang of users & you take that as a general consensus for 60 million people? Seriously?
[/quote]

No, I just know some other people who also smoke dope. I also know an awful lot of poeople who don't. I take it you don't therefore drink, given that you appear to be trying to take some kind of moral high ground here? Or do you not count alcohol as a drug?

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1356712424' post='1912824']I obey any law that is relevant to my actions at that time and that which I am aware exists; it's as much as any responsible person does.[/quote]

So you have never broken the speed limit? I guess you don't have a driving license.

[JellyKnees]

[quote]
But you didn't; you stated that you often commit an illegal act, why are you then a criminal. One generates the other, just as much as if you'd been going the wrong way down a one-way street, nicked a bottle of vodka out of Asda or robbed the crown jewels. Not any of them on a par with the other - but all illegal acts.
[/quote]

Nah, sorry this still doesn't make sense. I stated that I sometimes smoke dope, which currently happens to be illegal. I questioned as to why the smoking of dope should be a criminal act, i.e. why should it be illegal, and your answer was that it's illegal. Guff.

[lastnotleast]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1356696112' post='1912475']
Bit like becoming a Jazz musician, then...
[/quote]

Jazz musicians are shriveled due to lack of nourishment due to lack of money.
Definition of optimism; a jazz musician with a beeper
How do you know a jazz musician is at your door? You hear a knock followed by, "Pizza."

[TimR]

[quote name='JellyKnees' timestamp='1356712850' post='1912835']
So you would obey any law then? You are the very model citizen.



...
[/quote]

As JayBen pointed out earlier. Laws were made to reinforce social constructs already in place.

The drug laws were introduced in the Victorian times along with Alcohol laws due to drug and alcohol misuse. The Alcohol laws have been gradually repealed over the last 40-50 years. Possibly at the detriment to our society, I for one wouldn't like to see drugs going the same way.

I use alcohol sensibly, there are laws in effect like 24hour drinking that don't affect me in anyway. I don't need pubs to be open all the time or to be able to buy alcohol from absolutely anywhere. If I'm going for a drink, it's usually as a social occasion. For many heavy, problem and addicted users, It's not.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='JellyKnees' timestamp='1356712850' post='1912835']So you would obey any law then? You are the very model citizen.[/quote]
I do my best, I'd sooner not be so sad as to do something illegal just for the sake of it. It's called social responsibility, parental responsibility and having better things to do.

[quote name='JellyKnees' timestamp='1356712850' post='1912835']No, I just know some other people who also smoke dope. I also know an awful lot of poeople who don't. I take it you don't therefore drink, given that you appear to be trying to take some kind of moral high ground here? Or do you not count alcohol as a drug?[/quote]

Either you don't read too good, or you scanned over previous posts to get to the bit where you wanted to endorse what you do. I did say why - twice.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1356713221' post='1912844']So you have never broken the speed limit? I guess you don't have a driving license.[/quote]

Not intentionally, no. Not everyone that uses this forum is a teenage kid, or someone who hasn't quite grown up yet.

[BottomE]

These debates always end up in a childish "I am right and everyone else is wrong" type mode. Pointless.

Maybe you are all correct. Maybe not.

My take is that i don't really care what substances people stick in themselves. Its up to them (if they are adults). The law is an ass and hypocritical when it comes to laws relating to illegal drugs if you compare them side by side with alcohol.

From a musical perspective whats the problem? I just want someone who can do the job. If they aren't pissing anyone off and can play then great. I've known many great people who take drugs. I've known a lot of tossers who take drugs.

People need to be more mature around this conversation.

[JellyKnees]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1356713421' post='1912853']
Either you don't read too good, or you scanned over previous posts to get to the bit where you wanted to endorse what you do. I did say why - twice.
[/quote]

I can read perfectly well thanks very much. You did say why what? I asked you if you drink alcohol. I've re-read your posts and can't see where you mention this.

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1356713518' post='1912856']
Not everyone that uses this forum is a teenage kid, or someone who hasn't quite grown up yet.
[/quote]

Wow, smug and patronising at the same time.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='JellyKnees' timestamp='1356713340' post='1912847']
Nah, sorry this still doesn't make sense. I stated that I sometimes smoke dope, which currently happens to be illegal. I questioned as to why the smoking of dope should be a criminal act, i.e. why should it be illegal, and your answer was that it's illegal. Guff.
[/quote]

And again, because you're struggling to take this in - you didn't. You asked why doing something illegal criminalises you. I replied that doing the former creates the latter, you become a criminal by doing illegal things.

IF you're now asking instead, why it should be illegal to smoke dope then that's a whole different question. Only part of which can be answered by visiting various addicts of harder substances at various stages in various states of skintdom, or an A&E where a traffic accident victim is being treated due to someone driving under the influence, or a stopover hostel for recovering addicts (that was my own experience of 3+ years).
That will then be countered by "Well it's not happened to me or anyone I know" which in a huge number of cases could have "yet" added to it.
The bottom line is that you as a user who is comfortable with what you do - you don't sound overly concerned with the effect it may have on people around you, so you don't want to hear it, so you'll say whatever it takes to make you feel better. Police, courts and lawyers will have heard them all before, whether it's from a supplier or the guy (near me) who just nipped out for a MacD last week after he got the nibbles, who "thought he'd be safe" and was seen by a Panda to ram a stationary car.
The fact is that what you do is illegal under current law.

[TimR]

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1356713545' post='1912857']
These debates always end up in a childish "I am right and everyone else is wrong" type mode. Pointless.

Maybe you are all correct. Maybe not.

My take is that i don't really care what substances people stick in themselves. Its up to them (if they are adults). The law is an ass and hypocritical when it comes to laws relating to illegal drugs if you compare them side by side with alcohol.

From a musical perspective whats the problem? I just want someone who can do the job. If they aren't pissing anyone off and can play then great. I've known many great people who take drugs. I've known a lot of tossers who take drugs.

People need to be more mature around this conversation.
[/quote]

There are enough people stumbling around city centres off their heads on alcohol. Do we really want that complicated by adding drugs into the mix.

This already affects me as Friday and Saturday nights make my town a no go area for most sensible people.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1356713545' post='1912857']My take is that i don't really care what substances people stick in themselves. Its up to them (if they are adults).[/quote]

Me too, entirely - it's the effects, often fatal, on innocent strangers that are the truly unjust parts of it. Many laws are there for that reason.

[TimR]

It just amazes me that at a time when we should be tightening alcohol laws, some people are advocating loosening drug laws.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1356714513' post='1912877']
It just amazes me that at a time when we should be tightening alcohol laws, some people are advocating loosening drug laws.
[/quote]

But but, but they are! They're going to have a minimum unit price for alcohol. That'll do wonders for the pubs that they closed due to the smoking ban; while the ones left can now open whenever they want to be empty for even longer.
Weatherspoons reckon they'll be opening another 40 pubs next year though; do they have live bands on? I can't remember ever seeing a band in a Weatherspoons.

[SteveK]

Problem with [i]Holier than thou[/i] posters on a forum is that nobody [i]actually knows[/i] the poster. So when someone says that they have never 'intentionally' broken the speed limit (how does that work?), or have never been drunk and disorderly, smoked a [i]rock 'n' roll riff[/i] , parked on yellow lines, engaged in fisticuffs, how are we to know if that is actually the case? In a normal face to face discussion the [i]holier than thou [/i]participant's wife/partner/friend will often seize the opportunity to say, "Yeah, but what about that time when you..." ensuring the aforementioned [i]holier than thou[/i] participant received a good egg facing.
I'll wager I'm a more law abiding citizen than all of you put together ... paragon of virtue, me!.. prove me wrong