More watts vs. more speakers.

[JohnFitzgerald]

I've asked the usual questions regarding watts in here before. How many do you need, what does it mean ?

I've also read any thought about enough good quality postings I've seen from people qualified to comment.
By this I mean Alex Claber and Bill Fitzmaurice.

For the first time today, I got to give my freshly assembled stack of old Trace bits and pieces as per my signature.


I've had the amp head a while and the 15" cab a couple of months and the 2 x 10" cab came in very recently.

So, I fired it up in anger today and now I get it.

I'll not comment on the actual power of the amp, it's a relatively old Trace rated at 150 watts into the 4ohm load it was driving today, so make if that what you will.

It was just so much more capable of moving decent quantities of air with the two cabs plugged in.
When I used it with the old Peavey 410 it had loads of top and bottom but not a great mid. Then I got shot of the Peavey and replaced it with the Trace 1153 and it got better.

Today was the first time in anger with the two cabs having added the 2102 2x102 cab.

just fantastic. The difference the second cab made was extraordinary.

I'm a convert.

I read recently that a Trace amp head has pretty much given it's best when the master volume is at around 4, so had a go at that level. Not sure why you'd every want more volume than this 150 watt head into two cabs at that level was able to produce.

As I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, Alex and Bill are proponents of more cabs being the way rather than more watts.
Now I get it.

[Lozz196]

I`ve always been a "more speakers is better" advocate. One of my best rigs was an Ampeg 410 & 210, with whatever amp I decided to use with them. I`m not a loud player, but the depth of the sound was amazing.

However I`m no longer able to carry big speakers, so have a 1x12 combo & 1x12 ext speaker, which are great, and for my needs, plenty.

[BassTractor]

Yup! That's why us audiofiles lately have gone from [b]two[/b] to [b]sevenpointone[/b] speakers.

[TimR]

Yes. Amp power is how much electricity an amp will deliver. Speaker power is how much electricity the speaker can take before it catches fire. Sensitivity (SPL) is how many decibels the speaker can give out at a specific frequency and power.

Amplifier power is cheap and will increase volume to a point but:

If your speakers have low sensitivity they'll probably start distorting well before you reach any power limits. You'll certainly run out of volume before you run out of power. All that usually happens then as you add more power you get more noise (distortion).

Change for more sensitive speakers or add more speakers. It's expensive but better than the false economy of more power.

Edited December 29, 2012 by TimR

[stingrayPete1977]

There must be a point though where you need a big enough amp to drive them though?

Hanging 4 4x10s off an old Trace 150 watt head for example cant be the best can it, especially if your sucking up juice with a 5 string?

[umph]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1356782836' post='1913496']
There must be a point though where you need a big enough amp to drive them though?

Hanging 4 4x10s off an old Trace 150 watt head for example cant be the best can it, especially if your sucking up juice with a 5 string?
[/quote]

makes no odds, you'd be able to put alot more power into them but you could still drive them all with a 1watt amp

[stingrayPete1977]

So why does anyone have anything more than 100watts? Why do barefaced cabs get a reputation for being power hungry etc?

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1356785858' post='1913560']
So why does anyone have anything more than 100watts? Why do barefaced cabs get a reputation for being power hungry etc?
[/quote]

Some combination of cost, transportability and headroom. When your paying £500-£1000 for high end cabs, adding more cabs can be very expensive, often much more so than adding an extra kilowatt of amp power, and then youve got to physically get them to the gig ...

RE headroom - running a 100w amp you are relying on the amp having pleasant distortion (pretty much all power amps start adding measurable distortion at more than 20% rated power). If you simply want to amplify a great sounding preamp without further coloration, then a 100w amp is useless even with a very effecient speaker setup.

[Roland Rock]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1356785858' post='1913560']
So why does anyone have anything more than 100watts?
[/quote]

Because they can't be arsed lugging big cabs around?
I love my 100w so much, I've paired it up with a 6x10 and couldn't be happier.

Alex C makes a good analogy where the cone area is like the sails of a boat. In the same amount of wind (power), a boat with more/bigger sails (cone area) will travel faster (have more volume)

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1356785858' post='1913560']
So why does anyone have anything more than 100watts? Why do barefaced cabs get a reputation for being power hungry etc?
[/quote]

I use a 70w amp with a Barefaced cab. If I want the big lows I go to a 140w amp. Why do people have more than 100w? Probably because they or their band are using the wrong stuff, or don't actually know what they want. Those are the reason the music gear manufacturers are still in business, people have been constantly told they need more, even though you can expect a far better PA in venues than were available when a 30w guitar amp was enough and a 300w bass head was mind blowingly huge, and speakers have got more efficient since. I have a 1000w amp, its rating is at 0.1%thd, which is not nearly a audible amount, but you can measure tiny amounts of distortion.

[TimR]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1356738480' post='1913203']
...

However I`m no longer able to carry big speakers, so have a 1x12 combo & 1x12 ext speaker, which are great, and for my needs, plenty.
[/quote]

This gives you the big clue.

1x12 combo + ext speaker.

Combos usually come with a power amp that can deliver more than enough power to the included (8ohm) speaker. When you turn them up too far you get distortion. However, this is usually the speaker distorting before the amp.

BUT often you hear people saying they want to add an extension speaker to their combo to get the full power (at 4ohms) out of their amp. This is really a misnomer. What actually happens is adding an extra speaker allows you to get more volume out of the set up purely due to more cone area and coupling of the cabs. Usually you still won't get the full power from the amp before the speakers start distorting again.

It's worth learning the difference in sound between the "farting out" that you get from an over-driven speaker and the "grunt" that you get from a distorting power amp.

[Prime_BASS]

More speakers, just give you more. Not much else to it.

which is why I don't use Barefaced much more, I don't have the space to really transport two compacts, and I neither have the money for the sealed '69er I want.


Bass cabs is much more about compromise between what you need, and what you want, and what is practical. It's hard to satisfy all three.

[Wylie]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1356790019' post='1913624']
I use a 70w amp with a Barefaced cab. If I want the big lows I go to a 140w amp. Why do people have more than 100w? Probably because they or their band are using the wrong stuff, or don't actually know what they want. Those are the reason the music gear manufacturers are still in business, people have been constantly told they need more, even though you can expect a far better PA in venues than were available when a 30w guitar amp was enough and a 300w bass head was mind blowingly huge, and speakers have got more efficient since. I have a 1000w amp, its rating is at 0.1%thd, which is not nearly a audible amount, but you can measure tiny amounts of distortion.
[/quote]

Very interesting and informative ... thanks all.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1356782836' post='1913496']There must be a point though where you need a big enough amp to drive them though?[/quote]

Nope, the more speakers you have, the less amp you need. It's not the speakers you're 'driving', it's the air in the venue that you're 'driving' and the more speaker area you have, the easier it is to generate the sound pressure level you need in the room.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1356782836' post='1913496']Hanging 4 4x10s off an old Trace 150 watt head for example cant be the best can it, especially if your sucking up juice with a 5 string?[/quote]

If they could handle the power (which they can't, an old Trace 4x10" only handles about 100W before distorting), then you'd need 300W to drive two 4x10"s or 600W to drive one 4x10" to the same max SPL as 150W driving four 4x10"s.

In reality it's even more extreme than that because your cabs exhibit thermal and mechanical compression when you push them even vaguely hard, so you'd probably only need a 50W amp to get the four 4x10" rig up to the same SPL as if you used 600W into one 4x10" and it could handle that power without distortion. But power is cheap and moving big rigs gets tiresome.

[Jack]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1357146859' post='1918173']power is cheap and moving big rigs gets tiresome.[/quote]

And this is the answer to those 'why do you guys need 3kW+ rigs?' questions that we get every week. That, and some people chase the fundamental.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Jack' timestamp='1357147737' post='1918194']
And this is the answer to those 'why do you guys need 3kW+ rigs?' questions that we get every week. That, and some people chase the fundamental.
[/quote]

Who uses 3k rigs..?

[Musicman20]

No real explanation needed. More speakers = louder.

A very high wattage amp just gives you a lot of headroom. Fantastic if you ever need it. But, ultimately, it should come down to tone.

When using my Orange AD200b, it creates a huge wall of sound even at low volumes with the right cabinet. More watts than I need. Sounds lovely as well!

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1357148959' post='1918215']
A very high wattage amp just gives you a lot of headroom. Fantastic if you ever need it. But, ultimately, it should come down to tone.
[/quote]

Headroom is tone, when a ran a 1.6k rig I did so because I wanted the sound of a 1.6k amp running at 160w - not because I wanted to kill small children with sheer volume

[Musicman20]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1357175482' post='1918836']


Headroom is tone, when a ran a 1.6k rig I did so because I wanted the sound of a 1.6k amp running at 160w - not because I wanted to kill small children with sheer volume
[/quote]

Potentially it does make a difference, but then others prefer an amp that's being pushed, so lower wattage,

[Jack]

[quote name='Jack' timestamp='1357147737' post='1918194']
And this is the answer to those 'why do you guys need 3kW+ rigs?' questions that we get every week. That, and some people chase the fundamental.
[/quote]

A few people use hugely powerful PA power amps.

[scalpy]

You don't need an Italian supercar to do 150 miles an hour, but I'm guessing it's fun. Likewise, you don't need a massive fridge of a cab to be loud, but it's so much fun when you do. A lot of number crunchers forget this. From this viewpoint- more speakers.

Interestingly, I also think the people you work with or play to judge the volume you play at with their eyes, ie they take one look at you squeezing through a door to a band call with a 410 on your chest and your face redder than a baboons arse and they think "the bass is too loud" before you've even plugged in. Turn up with the cab in one hand you can play the same volume and you can be complimented for being "sensitive!" In that respect (and it does earn you more money!) - more watts.

[Lozz196]

Good point Scalpy. In my punk band, The Daves, we turned up at a gig a few years back - an outdoor gig in a field I might add - with our amps and cabs which then were 412s - bass, guitar & guitar all had 412s - and instantly the organisers were upon us, telling us we would have to be careful with the volume. Hadn`t even heard us play, as we were wheeling them across the grass, but they [u]knew[/u] we would be too loud. And we weren`t and never had been, we always played to the volume of the drums. We used 412s as the depth of sound was immense, and, back then, we were still young enough to carry them.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='scalpy' timestamp='1357213464' post='1919093']
Interestingly, I also think the people you work with or play to judge the volume you play at with their eyes, ie they take one look at you squeezing through a door to a band call with a 410 on your chest and your face redder than a baboons arse and they think "the bass is too loud" before you've even plugged in. Turn up with the cab in one hand you can play the same volume and you can be complimented for being "sensitive!" In that respect (and it does earn you more money!) - more watts.
[/quote]

Fairly sure at a gig where my mate's band played, who have a clean baritone guitar and a distorted bass going on, that the sound engineer kept demanding the bass turn down until the notes were lost in the hiss of his pedals because he was assuming it was the 4x15 and 4x12 bass rig that was too loud, when it was actually the baritone guitar into a standard 4x12.

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1357220955' post='1919279']
Fairly sure at a gig where my mate's band played, who have a clean baritone guitar and a distorted bass going on, that the sound engineer kept demanding the bass turn down until the notes were lost in the hiss of his pedals because he was assuming it was the 4x15 and 4x12 bass rig that was too loud, when it was actually the baritone guitar into a standard 4x12.
[/quote]

surely this just proves that the engineer doesnt have a clue?

annoys me when i used to have my 610 and alot of pedals that when i asked if they could mic my cab they'd say no! i asked them again saying i used pedals and that i bought my cab for a reason, again they said no! a di i will be fine! also they then put there own before my amp which was even worse! hence i like have a rig loud enough to play small/medium venues without support.

it does show the arrogance of some ppl that size means loud, yes sometimes it does but not all the time.

andy

[Mikey R]

Im wondering if its worth getting a good di box for the pedal board just for that reason, giving the sound engineer something to plug an XLR into might win him over.

If the di is derived from the power amp then thats not his worry.