using pa instead of bass amp?

[keeptrying]

Is there any reason why I can't use the pa as my main sound source and have a small combo for a monitor?
So my bass - combo - mixing desk - pa.
Would this work or am I missing something bleedin' obvious?

[xgsjx]

A couple of my dad's friends have a function band that solely use PA & some foldback. No amps, cabs or combos to be seen.
They sound good too.

So the answer to your Q is - if you're putting your bass through the PA, then you just need a monitor. Unless the amp/cab/combo is part of your sound. Then you either DI from the amp or mic it up if the cab forms your sound.

Edited December 29, 2012 by xgsjx

[Mr. Foxen]

If you have a PA to cart about that sounds good enough, sure. Generally a bass rig is easier to move, you can't rely on anyone else providing enough PA.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Did this a few weeks back in a tiny pub.

We do carry a big PA though, so it wasn't an issue.

Lovely sound.

Not suitable if I had wanted any dirt in my sound right enough.

[mep]

A decent 15" powered monitor should get you heard. For best results you will want a few monitor mixes.

[keeptrying]

Thanks all, I just thought that since the singer is going through the pa then I can save on buying a big bass rig.
The pa is a pair of Mackie thump 15a's which go quite loud.
The idea behind using a combo was so it could be used at rehearsals and home.
Could I get away with using a 60watt combo?
and can I go straight to the mixing desk from the xlr out in the aforementioned combo or would I need a di box?
Sorry if my questions are stupid but I'm a drummer who's trying to play bass.

[thinman]

[quote name='keeptrying' timestamp='1356809689' post='1913930']
Thanks all, I just thought that since the singer is going through the pa then I can save on buying a big bass rig.
The pa is a pair of Mackie thump 15a's which go quite loud.
The idea behind using a combo was so it could be used at rehearsals and home.
Could I get away with using a 60watt combo?
and can I go straight to the mixing desk from the xlr out in the aforementioned combo or would I need a di box?
Sorry if my questions are stupid but I'm a drummer who's trying to play bass.
[/quote]

I'd guess that that PA wouldn't have enough grunt for a decent bass sound at any appreciable volume - may be OK for quieter gigs - depends on your style, the venue etc and what else you're putting through the Mackies, If you have bass drum too they would very quickly run out of steam. A 60w combo aimed at your ears may be OK for monitoring providing you don't expect too much output and low-end.

So my view is that it depends on what you're trying to do but what you have wouldn't be adequate for a loudish band in a venue for 100 or more.

[BOD2]

Some more info here -

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/334-di-boxes-and-playing-through-the-pa/"]http://basschat.co.uk/topic/334-di-boxes-and-playing-through-the-pa/[/url]

[keeptrying]

Cheers Thinman, yes there will be some drum mics involved,
I suppose what I'm really trying to find out is what can be done with the gear that is to hand.
The pa will be travelling in my car so there's also the space consideration.
I don't have loads of money to spend on a big amp,
would adding a sub woofer to the pa give it the boost it needs?

[keeptrying]

Cheers BOD2 I read your thread before I posted but was a little confused,(a common occurance) it makes more sense now I'm a little more enlightened.

[thinman]

[quote name='keeptrying' timestamp='1356812484' post='1913970']
Cheers Thinman, yes there will be some drum mics involved,
I suppose what I'm really trying to find out is what can be done with the gear that is to hand.
The pa will be travelling in my car so there's also the space consideration.
I don't have loads of money to spend on a big amp,
would adding a sub woofer to the pa give it the boost it needs?
[/quote]
Yes - a sub (or subs) will help - but they are bulky and you'd either need active units with built-in amps and crossovers (Mackie probably do one that matches your existing tops ) or separate amps, crossovers plus the subs themselves - not sure that would cost you any less or keep down the kit that has to be carried.

The usual progression (which is more-or-less the story of my band's PA) is to have your own amp for your own monitoring (and tone creation) that can stand up to a drum kit. For small or not so loud occasions an acoustic drum kit and reasonable bass amp will do.

Quite quickly beyond that you need a bit more bass drum oomph so that has to go through the PA. Our original PA was two dB Technologies Opera 405s - two-way active 15s plus a horn, 300w each. These could take a bit of bass drum but it didn't take much to push them such that the self-limit light came on, i.e. they were at max.

I then built a pair of BFM T39 subs and got the required power amp and crossovers such that they would take on the low bass duty thus freeing up a lot of power from the Operas. It's a funny mix but works quite well and can be scaled from no subs, one sub or two subs as required. With both subs that PA can adequate for the average village hall but no bigger being only about 1.3kW but quite efficient. The downsize is that the subs are very big and the whole PA plus my bass rig is two hatchback cars-full.

However, in most cases I still use my own bass rig for more than just my own monitoring - which is not idea as in some cases it could be fighting the PA due to the distance between my bass amps and the subs plus things can get quite loud on stage. The PA tends to have the drums through it plus a bit of my bass too.

The other alternative, as suggested, is that you run a bigger (more powerful) PA all the time but spend the money and get one more compact than mine that you can use for all occasions and use a small bass amp or monitor for your own monitoring. This might be more future-proof but won't be cheap to put together.

The third alternative is to get a reasonable bass rig for yourself but hire-in a bigger PA when you need it. However, that's not that cheap done too often!

[JohnFitzgerald]

The Mackie Thumps would very quickly meet their ultimate limit, epspecially with bass drum anywhere near them.
Factor in bass guitar and drums and the singer will very shortly complain that the PA isn't up to the job.

It is up to the job for vocals, but not the use you'r suggesting.

Thumps really aren't intended for this sort of use.

Had your drums been pre recorded with the track compressed to death, you could get away with it in smaller establishments.
Outwith that, you'd need much more grunt to cope with the strong likelihood that either you or the drummer will max them out in short order.

I know I keep going on about it, but we use 2.4kw in small pubs with really really decent quality Logic speakers.
Prior to that it was HK Audio Lucas systems (two of them). If you want drums and bass through your PA, you need loadsa grunt and high quality speakers. Amps and speakers maxxing out is not what you want.

I've used lesser quality.

It doesn't work.

If you want to use a compact PA, the drums and bass should be kept well away from it.

[garythebass]

Worked quite well for me, but as already said, it needs to be a decent PA with subs.

I used a 100w Ashdown combo as a stage monitor, which was fed into the line in from the desk. Cheap as you like (there's one in the for sale section for £75).

[Mog]

It really depends on how good your PA system is. I know a lot of musicians who run direct and use IEM's or wedges. IMO having everything coming from the one system can make a band sound a hell of a lot better.

If you're planning on trying it get the best D.I. you can afford. Active monitors are also a better option than passive ones as there's no extra load on the PA.

[keeptrying]

Thanks everyone for all your wise words,
it looks like either the pa needs to get bigger or I need a decent bass amp.
no cheap solutions
I agree that bands sound better through a pa, more balanced and less dueling amps going on. or perhaps it's more a case of the bands that can afford a pa big enough to carry all its instruments are better players.

[mep]

Some good info here from everyone. IMO your 60w combo will struggle as a backline unless you are playing something quiet or soft. What type of band are you? Either a bigger combo or decent active monitors will allow you to hear yourself properly. It will become frustrating if your FOH sound is great & you can't hear yourself on stage very well. You don't want to drowned out by the drummer. You may be one but now you are the bass player!

[keeptrying]

The band is rock based, with singer, drums and guitar, possibly adding a second guitar.
I'm just trying to get an idea of what we can do with the gear we have,
and what I need to get to be heard FOH and on stage, I just want to make sure that I buy the right kit and not an expensive mistake.

[JohnFitzgerald]

An ickle combo that can't move much air isn't any use for anything other than fairly quiet rehearsals.
If the budget doesn't run to a brand new mega amp, you should maybe consider the stuff for sale in here.
I would suggest a couple of moderately transportable cabs (yes, just like I have).
Not terrible to move but make plenty of high quality sound.

Your PA will do fine for vocals, the drums will live without being mic'd up.

The guitarist will be fine on their own.

You need something around 2-300 watts for a band like that but with enough real estate in terms of speaker capability to actually make some noise.

Here's a short story of trying to downsize and failing.
Many years ago I decided that getting rid of my less than a year old Carlsbro Stingray 1x15" bass combo was a good idea. Our guitarist had a Sessionette which was a fab little amps that did all required of it. Session had just brought out bass amps and the one I bought was the same 100W rating as the Carlsbro, but much more compact.

Guess what ?
You couldn't hear it behind a fag packet.
The speaker and cabinet didn't make enough noise.

If your budget is modest (this, I can more than understand) the marketplace in here will provide you with all you need.

[Monckyman]

As above,the tops you have won't support a full band mix at the volume you'll need in most venues.
If you add at least one sub, and better two,then it's a different story, as most of the lower frequency stuff that makes up the kik drum and bass will no longer go to the tops.
This is the way I do it, with everything through the P.A and small ish backline (I use an svt410 but I have a large van,for small gigs I get by with an Ashdown mini 48 and an Ampeg PF500).
It's a compromise really, as you have to carry the subs, but In my opinion a full mix leads to a much better sound in general and helps to keep that backline at reasonable levels.
I reckon you could easily get away with a half decent 150watt combo so long as you don't load the tone with too much low end and push the mids a little for cut.
Remember your tone out in the front will be EQd differently to suit the rig and room.
Also,if you have the kick drum in the rig, you'll need that sub anyway.
MM

[JTUK]

Marginal, IMO, since the P.A you have is for pubs and vocals only, pretty much.

If you want to pursue your idea then you will need a bigger P.A and then you have to work out if
it is all worth it.with the set-up and carry..which is why most don't go down that route.

It is not a given that a mix out front is going to better than a backline mix. It should be, but it often isn't.

[thinman]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1356878162' post='1914593']
As above,the tops you have won't support a full band mix at the volume you'll need in most venues.
If you add at least one sub, and better two,then it's a different story, as most of the lower frequency stuff that makes up the kik drum and bass will no longer go to the tops.
This is the way I do it, with everything through the P.A and small ish backline (I use an svt410 but I have a large van,for small gigs I get by with an Ashdown mini 48 and an Ampeg PF500).
It's a compromise really, as you have to carry the subs, but In my opinion a full mix leads to a much better sound in general and helps to keep that backline at reasonable levels.
I reckon you could easily get away with a half decent 150watt combo so long as you don't load the tone with too much low end and push the mids a little for cut.
Remember your tone out in the front will be EQd differently to suit the rig and room.
Also,if you have the kick drum in the rig, you'll need that sub anyway.
MM
[/quote]

I'd agree with all this - one point especially on subs (but with all speaker designs to some degree) is that Hoffman's Iron Law applies: In a design you can have any two of good low frequency response, efficiency and small size but never all three. In short, if you get physically small subs then they are likely to need a lot more amplifier power to achieve the required output than one designed around a much bigger enclosure. The T39s I have are both 39" high and 20" * 16" in section - they do fill up the car but they don't need shed loads of power to get decent levels from them.

Another point is that it's good to get your guitarist(s) to keep the volume on their amp low but mic them and use the PA to distribute the sound - otherwise the guitar can "beam" into the audience meaning it's very loud for some and not loud enough for others. Guitars can also add greatly to the "noise" on stage. Use of a compressor on the bass and bass drum signals going into the PA also helps.

If any in your band are handy with the woodwork have a look at www.billfitzmaurice.com - it's interesting stuff.

I can't claim to be a great expert on the whole thing but have a had a bit of hard experience running the PA for our band if you have any more questions.

[Phil Starr]

I've been using 600W of amp with various speakers for several years, then I bought a Hartke Kickback10 for a semi-acoustic set and rehearsals. It worked pretty well and I tried it out at a gig. Crucially I own and carry the PA and I can either fit in the two subs or my bass stack in the car but not both. Both the onstage sound and the audience's experience were better using the kickback and PA than using the stack and I can't imagine going back. In fact I am redesigning my 15's to become lightweight subs which can double as a stack if I need one. What I do now is roll off the bass on the kickback (The deepest notes come back from the PA anyway) and DI for the audience. I can actually hear more of what I am playing this way than I ever did off a stack. My drummer prefers this set up too.

So to answer your question 120W through a 10" speaker is enough for me as a monitor so long as it can be angled at your ears.

[Ba55me15ter]

I regularly gigged with a SWR 12" wedge cab and DI'd into the PA. PA was meaty though! Preferred it to a stack behind me too.

[JTUK]

If the drummer prefers this...he must play pretty light..?
What do the other guys hear..?

[keeptrying]

Once again many thanks for all the help, I'm getting quite an education here.
Cheers for the link Thinman I enjoy building stuff, I'll have a proper read when my cold has cleared and my head is less full of snot
It's time to have a good think and see how full piggy bank is,
Happy new year all

Edited December 31, 2012 by keeptrying