Opinion on Composite / Phenolic fingerboards ?

[ZenBasses]

So yet again sat late at night considering options for my new bass that Jon Shuker is going to build me

Has anyone had experience with composite or Phenolic fingerboard?

I assume they are made to be hard wearing and I guess snappy and bright like ebony?

Any advice BCers?

[Kiwi]

Jon builds [i]extremely[/i] stiff maple necks. So you may risk having a brittle and sizzly sounding instrument if you go for a graphite reinforced, maple and phenolic board in the same instrument with stainless steel frets. I'd recommend thinking about some dampening in the neck if your heart is set on a phenolic fingerboard. Maybe consider putting a significant chunk of mahogany into the laminates just to warm things up a little but keep enough maple so you don't have to adjust the neck with every change in the weather. Otherwise I'd suggest putting a rosewood or pau ferro fingerboard on a maple neck to take the sizzle out of the fretnoise a little.

[ZenBasses]

My GB has a lovely ebony Fingerboards and I was just exploring the possibilities of Phenolic.. The ethics surrounding ebony make me stir away.

I have always loved the look of Pau Ferro.. Maybe this is probably the perfect option.

Maple fboards are the obvious option.. But something a bit differ would be preferable

The GB is super bright and attacky I am wanting a more rounded and Warmer sound

So u guess that rules out composite straight off..

Hmmm Pau Ferro..... I likey

[BassBus]

There are plenty of examples of Status basses on YouTube with phenolic boards. If you want a warmer tone then it might not be the best for that. I can get a lovely warm tone from my Status S2 fretless but I use halfwounds or flats on that and wind off all the top end. Round wounds are just too bright and sparkly for my ears.

[Lfalex v1.1]

I have three phenolic boarded bases.
A bolt on,
A neck through,
A monocoque.
They're all fretted.
Realistically, the construction, pick ups and electronics make a much larger contribution to the overall sound.
In every case they encourage good technique, as a fudged note will sound all the more evident.
Kiwi is right about the potential for a brittle tone if it's all too stiff and the frets are very hard.
They are durable, and easy to clean, though I have had issues with my sweat penetrating one and causing it to stain and partially de- laminate in places. The other two are fine.
I do wish that some all- composite basses could have an ebony board, but it's difficult, as wood expands and contracts much more than (say) graphite, and there's a chance it'll distort or become detached.

[White Cloud]

[quote name='ZenBasses' timestamp='1357087941' post='1917466']
My GB has a lovely ebony Fingerboards and I was just exploring the possibilities of Phenolic.. The ethics surrounding ebony make me stir away.

I have always loved the look of Pau Ferro.. Maybe this is probably the perfect option.

Maple fboards are the obvious option.. But something a bit differ would be preferable

The GB is super bright and attacky I am wanting a more rounded and Warmer sound

So u guess that rules out composite straight off..

Hmmm Pau Ferro..... I likey
[/quote]

To be honest if you want a more rounded and warmer sound composites are not the way to go.

In my experience the type of response that you seem to be seeking will be best served by Rosewood. It took me over 30yrs of experimenting with everything from Maple, Rosewood, composites...even Pau Ferro and Cocobolo before finally coming to the realisation that Rosewood is the fingerboard material that gives me what I like best.

One thing that always surprises me is the misconception amongst loads of bassists that Maple is harder than Rosewood. It is much brighter...but certainly not as hard.

Edited January 2, 2013 by White Cloud

[BigRedX]

So why aren't you making use of Mr Shuker's expertise with materials for building basses? Surely that's a proportion of what you are paying him for?

Just tell him how you'd like the finished bass to sound, play and look and let him do the work of picking the appropriate materials and putting them together to give the desired end result. That after all is his area of expertise.

If you don't feel confident about his choices then he's probably not the right luthier for building your bass.

[TheGreek]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1357128715' post='1917737']
So why aren't you making use of Mr Shuker's expertise with materials for building basses? Surely that's a proportion of what you are paying him for?

Just tell him how you'd like the finished bass to sound, play and look and let him do the work of picking the appropriate materials and putting them together to give the desired end result. That after all is his area of expertise.

If you don't feel confident about his choices then he's probably not the right luthier for building your bass.
[/quote]

I've got to agree with this...the man clearly knows what he's doing so think about discussing this with him and consider taking his advice...

FWIW I'm in two minds on composite boards - I had this on a Hohner B2A fretless in the 80s - very disappointing, but I also had a composite fretboard on my Status KB which I was very impressed with...

Probably of no help what so ever..

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='TheGreek' timestamp='1357132018' post='1917818']
FWIW I'm in two minds on composite boards - I had this on a Hohner B2A fretless in the 80s - very disappointing, but I also had a composite fretboard on my Status KB which I was very impressed with...

Probably of no help what so ever..
[/quote]

Actually, you've struck the nail on the head (in a roundabout way!)
A phenolic 'board [i]might[/i] complete/complement an already good instrument, but will not make a silk purse from a sow's ear...

[Chris2112]

Having had many phenonlic boards over the years, I'd struggle to pick one out in a blind test! Though typically they are bright and articulate sounding, a bit like ebony but often this is largely to do with the rest of the instrument!

Case in point, I remember a Talkbass user who was famed over there for having lots of Status basses (remembering they are a lot rarer in the states) commenting on a Kubicki Ex Factor, saying "you can really hear that graphite neck". Of course, the Kubicki is a 36 piece maple neck with an ebony fingerboard, it just sound very bright and articulate, a bit like a graphite neck! So you never really know what you're hearing etc etc...

[Kiwi]

I would be asking Jon about how much stiffness the phenolic would add to the neck. Some Status basses from the early 90's and most Musicman Cutlass necks had problems with phenolic fingerboards not being stiff enough to resist string tension. If he thinks the fingerboard will be stiff enough to resist tension then it gives you more options with softer woods for the neck. Mahogany and strips of wenge perhaps?

[BassBod]

Another option is resin filled woods - I think ACG and Zon do this a lot? Talk to your maker...and see what his experiences have been.

[Conan]

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1357126923' post='1917703']
One thing that always surprises me is the misconception amongst loads of bassists that Maple is harder than Rosewood. It is much brighter...but certainly not as hard.
[/quote]

I'm surprised at your surprise! To those of us with no training or experience in woodwork, maple just kind of "looks and feels" harder. Maybe it's because of the closer grain, or maybe the colour has an influence? I dunno. But I'd always assumed that maple was the harder of the two woods!

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1357087441' post='1917462']
Jon builds [i]extremely[/i] stiff maple necks. So you may risk having a brittle and sizzly sounding instrument if you go for a graphite reinforced, maple and phenolic board in the same instrument with stainless steel frets. I'd recommend thinking about some dampening in the neck if your heart is set on a phenolic fingerboard. Maybe consider putting a significant chunk of mahogany into the laminates just to warm things up a little but keep enough maple so you don't have to adjust the neck with every change in the weather. Otherwise I'd suggest putting a rosewood or pau ferro fingerboard on a maple neck to take the sizzle out of the fretnoise a little.
[/quote]

lol.

You guys are crazy. The fingerboard is what, maybe 2 or 3% of the mass of a bass, and you're all freaking out about the effect it will have on the sound? This is a fretted electric bass we're discussing here right?

Straight tripping.

[fretmeister]

Having had all manner of composite 'boards I have to say the body is much more important.

As a direct comparison - my Graph neck, wood body Energy (old one - no truss rod, very stiff) compared to my Streamline... the Energy is much more traditional sounding and a warm rounded tone is entirely possible, whereas the all graphite Streamline is much more modern.

that being said, the difference in Stainless Steel and Nicket frets is quite obvious too.

Zon boards are wooden but pressure treated to force resin into the wood. I like it a lot! But I'm not convinced it makes a huge amount of difference unless you are looking at a fretless.

Body wood and pickups are a much more important part IMHO

[Kiwi]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1357320116' post='1921044']
You guys are crazy. The fingerboard is what, maybe 2 or 3% of the mass of a bass, and you're all freaking out about the effect it will have on the sound? This is a fretted electric bass we're discussing here right?[/quote]

Well, before you crow any further, this is a neck [u]not[/u] a bridge. The relative mass of a fingerboard is irrelevant to how stiff it is.

But don't take my word for it. Try a few bassses where they're identical apart from the fingerboard material. (I've tried Fender and Celinder jazz basses, Smiths, Musicman Cutlass basses vs Stringrays and Status basses) Note how consistently the attack differs between two fingerboard materials.

Better yet, talk to a few luthiers about it...like Jon Shuker, Rob Green or Ken Smith, like I did.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1357320544' post='1921055']
Having had all manner of composite 'boards I have to say the body is much more important.

As a direct comparison - my Graph neck, wood body Energy (old one - no truss rod, very stiff) compared to my Streamline... the Energy is much more traditional sounding and a warm rounded tone is entirely possible, whereas the all graphite Streamline is much more modern.

that being said, the difference in Stainless Steel and Nicket frets is quite obvious too.

Zon boards are wooden but pressure treated to force resin into the wood. I like it a lot! But I'm not convinced it makes a huge amount of difference unless you are looking at a fretless.

Body wood and pickups are a much more important part IMHO
[/quote]

I kind of agree. I've noticed the fingerboard generally affects attack more than anything. It probably affects lows but the higher frequencies are more directional so I've noticed them more.

Pickups seem to be a bit like a blunt edged weapon. They generally have a single resonancy peak that can be adjusted up and down the frequency spectrum depending on number of windings, magnet strength etc. The treble response of pickups can also be dampened or boosted depending on how much resistance there is in the coils and how random the windings are around the coil. Lots of other factors come into play such as how even the windings are, thickness of the wire..so it becomes a bit of a balancing act.

Body wood has a dampening effect in bolt on instruments if the wood is softer and less stiff than the neck. I'm still open minded about how much impact the wood in body wings in through body necked instruments has. I'd like to believe less but I noticed more warmth in the mahogany bodied Smith 5 I used to own, compared to the walnut bodied fretless. So...don't know yet.

[Dingus]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1357320544' post='1921055']
Having had all manner of composite 'boards I have to say the body is much more important.

As a direct comparison - my Graph neck, wood body Energy (old one - no truss rod, very stiff) compared to my Streamline... the Energy is much more traditional sounding and a warm rounded tone is entirely possible, whereas the all graphite Streamline is much more modern.

that being said, the difference in Stainless Steel and Nicket frets is quite obvious too.

Zon boards are wooden but pressure treated to force resin into the wood. I like it a lot! But I'm not convinced it makes a huge amount of difference unless you are looking at a fretless.

Body wood and pickups are a much more important part IMHO
[/quote]

I used to use Zon basses and I seem to remember Joe Zon telling me at the time that the fingerboards were made of very thin layers of Birch almost like paper that was then impregnated with resin and then compressed at a certain temprature to create the final Phenowood composite . I could be getting confused in my memory of this , but I think that was the overall gist of it .

Edited January 4, 2013 by Dingus

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1357324807' post='1921163']
Try a few bassses where they're identical apart from the fingerboard material[/quote]

I have done with Fenders. I can't guarantee they were identical apart from the fingerboard material although they are the most mass-produced (and therefore likely identical) basses in the world. I always picked the rosewood-boarded basses but not because of any perceived difference in the sound, but purely because I preferred how they felt under my fingers.

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1357324807' post='1921163']Better yet, talk to a few luthiers about it...like Jon Shuker, Rob Green or Ken Smith, like I did.[/quote]

What did they tell you? Did they all tell you the same thing? Did it marry up with your own experiences?

Maybe there is a barely-perceptible difference. I doubt it's important enough to worry about. I can understand the importance of construction materials and methods in an acoustic instrument or the importance of the fingerboard material on a fretless bass guitar, but the fingerboard material on a fretted bass? Nah. And it seems the guys you spoke to are all the the business of selling prestige bass guitars. Of course they'll suggest that the materials used are very important - they want to flatter you. The bass guitar is not only an electric instrument where the materials used aren't especially important, but it's a bass instrument! In most situations it's going to get obscured by the rest of the band anyway, and you want to worry about whether the fingerboard material is going to make it sound intolerably 'zingy'?

Like I said. 'Lol'. And 'You crazy'.

[fender73]

I like 'zingy'

#justsaying

[EMG456]

[quote name='fender73' timestamp='1357370757' post='1921660']
I like 'zingy'

#justsaying
[/quote]

Me too!

[yann]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1357325879' post='1921185']
I kind of agree. I've noticed the fingerboard generally affects attack more than anything. It probably affects lows but the higher frequencies are more directional so I've noticed them more.

Pickups seem to be a bit like a blunt edged weapon. They generally have a single resonancy peak that can be adjusted up and down the frequency spectrum depending on number of windings, magnet strength etc. The treble response of pickups can also be dampened or boosted depending on how much resistance there is in the coils and how random the windings are around the coil. Lots of other factors come into play such as how even the windings are, thickness of the wire..so it becomes a bit of a balancing act.

Body wood has a dampening effect in bolt on instruments if the wood is softer and less stiff than the neck. I'm still open minded about how much impact the wood in body wings in through body necked instruments has. I'd like to believe less but I noticed more warmth in the mahogany bodied Smith 5 I used to own, compared to the walnut bodied fretless. So...don't know yet. [/quote]

Ι agree too.
The neck of an instrument is (to me) excactly what it looks in the eye: Half the instrument.
Except producing notes,it does another serious job: Transfering more than half the vibe to the body (the bridge does the rest of the job).

Here's two reasons i never used a phenolic-or other non wooden fretboard (not stiffness,we can still install the frets tighter and be sure of the trussrod work) :

-I don't like the feeling of it (like plastic),as i don't like varnish on fretboards that is a must for light coloured woods like maple (same feeling).
For the same reason,i don't want any chemistry on my neck,since i touched the first oiled one...man,they feel like a woman's skin to me!

-Artificial materials have no "sound personality" like wood's pieces do.They're good at lows and highs,but lots of mids are missing,and that's where the real game is played! If we try to compare the response of 10 phenolic fretboards with tapping,they'll all sound the same.
But with ebony or rosewood or any other wood (like 10 of the same species i mean),we'll hear a lot of differences...
Therefor,luthiers spend nights and days valuating their woods.

The fretboard is often underestimated by players,but this "veneer thin" part is the one that tranfers the vibe (sound!) to the neck,and the neck to the body.
-Here's where i think Kiwi is right too: We might have the best neck,and "kill it" with a body that doesn't suit to it!

Some people believe that maple boards give more attack...Well,it's mostly the frets and their installation that do the job.
Consider that the varnish of maple boards,is usually apllied after the fret installation.This makes them "one" with the board,even if they're installed loose.
(Loose frets: No attack,muddy tone).
For other woods that don't get coated as fretboards,the fret installation must be perfect,or goodbye attack (well,there might be enough due to the rest of good materials,but not the 100%.I've seen players proud of their instrument's attack,and after a good fretwork they just don't believe their ears!!
If the frets are not well installed (nut too),no superwoods,no hightech,no pickups will give the desired result!
An instrument is a chain.No matter of best materials,if a small thing is not working properly (even glue),affects the whole inst...

[markorbit]

I like phenolic/composite fingerboards and I favour a warm tone. I've had 'cold' basses with maple, rosewood and graphie boards.... What I love about the phenolic fingerboard is how refined and consistant the sound is. I generally prefer flatwound strings with them as I think they compliment each other well. I have a Status S2 Classic and original Steinberger at the moment. I did a quick recording session of all my basses the other day. The Precision with Status graphite neck and Labellas beat the rest. Refined smooth tone. Great for fingerstyle and even Motown. The Pino with the same strings was waaaay more upper middy for that Gang Of Four thing. Quite surpring really. Could be the Fralin pickups being the difference aswell of course.

If I was still a pick player it may be different but I wouldn't dismiss a phenolic neck.

[Bassman68]

My personal findings on phenolic fingerboards are that they are fine on 'inert' carbon necks offering a tone very similar to a good ebony fingerboard (any 'coldness' soundwise more due to the graphite neck itself), I like the tone personally.
The only problem comes when a phenolic board is married to a wooden neck, that moves & shifts/warps, Unless a multi-laminate neck is used or graphite rod inserts, there will always be the danger of the neck shifting & the fingerboard not, causing lifting problems etc.
I seem to recall Washburn Status's having this problem in the late 80's when they first come out?

[White Cloud]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1357312974' post='1920814']


I'm surprised at your surprise! To those of us with no training or experience in woodwork, maple just kind of "looks and feels" harder. Maybe it's because of the closer grain, or maybe the colour has an influence? I dunno. But I'd always assumed that maple was the harder of the two woods!
[/quote]

Not only is Rosewood harder...it is also much more expensive to buy in its raw form.