Am I a musician, or do I just have a good memory?

[LukeFRC]

I know a bit more theory than the OP, but not much more.
I can memorise a lot less than 200 songs (having the chords written down makes you lazy!)
But I can pick up a bass, listen to a song and come up with parts that work and are right and good.
And folk seem to like my playing.
So I think I'll call myself a musician.

Plus a little theory can be a bad thing. Years back in my first band I couldn't make a gig - so a friend of a friend dep'ed for me - that band was mostly really really simple lines and he turned up and wanted to add double thumbing on a song, and could play all this stuff that was technically way beyond me - obviously he had a bit of theory behind him.
We had one song where... well the bass was playing the "wrong" notes I think it was something like the keys was on this pattern in some form of A major and the Bass in a pattern based around A minor or something - can't remember exactly - but what it meant was you had these two shifting melodies and you had dissonant tension and release- and I thought it sounded great! (it did) This fella couldn't cope with the "wrong" notes and dissonance so of course had to tell me it was "wrong" and put it all in the major key - hence the song didn't work!

[lojo]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1357370959' post='1921662']
I think being able to play an entire composition perfectly (remembering the emphasis on dynamics in classical music) while reading the sheet and watching the mental guy flail his arms about which somehow tells you when to play and when not to, is a far harder thing to perfect.
[/quote]

Wasn't knocking it, just saying that one approach won't give most people all round abilities

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1357378281' post='1921724']
Wasn't knocking it, just saying that one approach won't give most people all round abilities
[/quote]

I know you weren't, i wasn't having a go at you over it

[stingrayPete1977]

I have been in both camps back and forth for years, a lot of people think that if they dont learn any theory then they will create something no one else has before them, a hidden note or a new scale, they wont

I agree with TNIT in that you learn a bit and get all excited for a bit then realise that for each thing you learn it raises 10 more questions! You then either have to embark on an ever lasting quest for knowledge or try and ignor it exists and carry on regardless usually with a nagging feeling for the rest of your playing days.

I know more classically trained musicians that are sh*te hot than I do these ones that are limited by it, in fact I only know one person that falls into that bracket and maybe they would just of been a crap player anyway?

Edited January 5, 2013 by stingrayPete1977

[leschirons]

There are different levels of everything in the this world, including musicianship. The problem arises when others put their own meaning to whatever it is. Hence, it can get clicky and elitiste.

If you play an instrument, whether it be in public or in private and achieve what you set out to do. You are a musician. It's usually others that tend to want to decide whether you are, or are not a musician (in their eyes)

Just as an example, Gary Moore had virtually no theory, rarely used his little finger for fretting and couldn't read music. All things that go against the grain of what some percieve as a "real" musician. Especially tutors. Was he not a musician? I'd say he was, and a very successful and respected one.

To the OP, yes you are, but it's up to you as to whatever level you wish to take that to.

[lowdowner]

[quote name='leschirons' timestamp='1357379684' post='1921746']
There are different levels of everything in the this world, including musicianship. The problem arises when others put their own meaning to whatever it is. Hence, it can get clicky and elitiste.

If you play an instrument, whether it be in public or in private and achieve what you set out to do. You are a musician. It's usually others that tend to want to decide whether you are, or are not a musician (in their eyes)

Just as an example, Gary Moore had virtually no theory, rarely used his little finger for fretting and couldn't read music. All things that go against the grain of what some percieve as a "real" musician. Especially tutors. Was he not a musician? I'd say he was, and a very successful and respected one.

To the OP, yes you are, but it's up to you as to whatever level you wish to take that to.
[/quote]

+100 to this

[lojo]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1357378575' post='1921728']


I know you weren't, i wasn't having a go at you over it
[/quote]

I know you weren't

[simpleman]

I spent years playing guitar, self taught with no theory. I was always writing my own songs and they were composed through feel and in some case trying to emulate certain sounds generated by my favourite bands. I used to play a lot with a mate but I moved away. He went on to learn some theory and to emphasise an earlier post, he demonstrated to me some of the techniques I employed without being conscious of doing do.


My songs were very limited though, with many a time I would flounder because I couldn't work out where next to move the song. Theory for me is just more tools in your tool box. It enables you to have the right tools for the job and the training to use them. It doesn't stiffle creativity, for me it gives me options that I wouldn't necessarily think of.

Are you a musician? I reckon so. Not every musician has the same qualities as previous post have shown with their criteria.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='lowdowner' timestamp='1357376888' post='1921702']
This isn't just about being able to understand notation - but understanding how the music 'works' so you can make it do what you want.
[/quote]

Exactly. And the more you know the less trial-and-error you have to go through to get the result you're after. It's just like anything else.

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1357377729' post='1921715']
Plus a little theory can be a bad thing. Years back in my first band I couldn't make a gig - so a friend of a friend dep'ed for me - that band was mostly really really simple lines and he turned up and wanted to add double thumbing on a song, and could play all this stuff that was technically way beyond me - obviously he had a bit of theory behind him.
[/quote]

I think that guy's most obvious problem was that he was a bit of a knob. I've met a lot of guitarists who know very little theory but still behave like that. I don't think knowledge is the issue here!

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1357387890' post='1921902']
I think that guy's most obvious problem was that he was a bit of a knob. I've met a lot of guitarists who know very little theory but still behave like that. I don't think knowledge is the issue here!
[/quote]

Aye a knob - but I could deal with that - it was the lack of understanding at how a "wrong" note could even be considered - he obviously knew enough music theory to try and teach me why I was wrong (which I already knew) but not enough to comprehend a dissonant note!

[rushbo]

[quote name='Rowley Birkin QC' timestamp='1357333405' post='1921367']
Oxford dictionary quotes,

"[color=#333333][font=Georgia, Palatino,]Definition of [/font][/color][b]musician[/b]
[b] noun[/b]
[list]
[*]
a person who plays a musical instrument, especially as a profession, or is musically talented."
[/list]

[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]so, in that context, you are a musician [/font][/size]
[/quote]

This.

[mcnach]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1357375013' post='1921685']
Yeah, i've seen the Chili Peppers a few times live now, and their "Jams" are clearly pre-arranged, as much as i love them, and hate to admit that. But flea does throw in a lot of spontaneous fills.
[/quote]


well, there's prearranged and prearranged.

we do a few jams too... and some may say they are prearranged, but the only thing prearranged is that we have played that sort of beats improvising together a million times together, and we end up having a few "sections" that we can easily switch into and play as we feel like, whilst still improvising within that context...
It still has the "jam" flavour, but you are a lot less likely to end up going nowhere, or being boring.

I'm sure the RHCP jams are much along the same lines.

If you play and jam for years with the same people, you build up a lot of melodies and rhythms together, and it can seem prearranged, because you are able to play the same or a similar melody today and a few months from now without any further rehearsing or anything.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1357378281' post='1921724']
Wasn't knocking it, just saying that one approach won't give most people all round abilities
[/quote]

Knowledge of theory will enhance someone ability to play a particular style or in a particular context but it wont magically enable someone skilled in one context (e.g. orchestra vs open mic night backing band) to be skilled in another. Dissmising because of that simply doesnt make sense.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='lowdowner' timestamp='1357376888' post='1921702']
The time when theory becomes useful is when you are either reading sheet music or when you are composing.
[/quote]

I rarely do either of those things but find theory usefull all the time.

[TimR]

[quote name='lowdowner' timestamp='1357376465' post='1921697']
I'd not agree with this (well, *someone* had to!)

...
[/quote]

Nope. You do agree with it. Note my liberal use of 'tend' and 'in general'.

Certainly a couple of big bands I've played in have not swung, even though the music has been written like that and the conductor or MD has tried to get the musicians to swing. It seldom works, though, in the way we've come to expect it in small beat combo's. As you say there's just not the feedback mechanisms and freedom in place for it to happen.

In classical trios, quartets and small chamber orchestras it can, and does, work extremely well.

[lojo]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1357392207' post='1921974']


Knowledge of theory will enhance someone ability to play a particular style or in a particular context but it wont magically enable someone skilled in one context (e.g. orchestra vs open mic night backing band) to be skilled in another. Dissmising because of that simply doesnt make sense.
[/quote]

Wasn't dismissing it at all, just saying in the context of the original post, it doesn't make you a complete all rounder like some think, but I'd not be so silly as to dismiss it

[gjones]

Theory is great but you don't need to know any to be a good musician. I know people with zero knowledge on theory who are fantastic musicians and I know people with degrees in music (and one who was the head of jazz at a prestigious UK music college) who I wouldn't want in my band. As long as you have feel, can groove, enjoy making music and love your instrument you can call yourself a musician.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1357395611' post='1922026']
Theory is great but you don't need to know any to be a good musician. I know people with zero knowledge on theory who are fantastic musicians and I know people with degrees in music (and one who was the head of jazz at a prestigious UK music college) who I wouldn't want in my band. As long as you have feel, can groove, enjoy making music and love your instrument you can call yourself a musician.
[/quote]

Not knowing it does not mean you are not using it just that you are unaware of why things work, most of get close enough by repitition of playing around the fingerboard which gives us a 6th sense for it (its not a 6th sense its hearing I know).

Lots of people know its uncool to be a theory geek and keep it quiet, Blur are a good example IMO right bunch of nerds that kept it quiet until after the glory days of squaring up with the Oasis brothers had passed

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1357396413' post='1922036']
Not knowing it does not mean you are not using it just that you are [u][b]unaware of why things work[/b][/u], most of get close enough by repitition of playing around the fingerboard which gives us a 6th sense for it (its not a 6th sense its hearing I know).

Lots of people know its uncool to be a theory geek and keep it quiet, Blur are a good example IMO right bunch of nerds that kept it quiet until after the glory days of squaring up with the Oasis brothers had passed
[/quote]

I am going to quote myself there as I like this bit

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1357391811' post='1921970']
If you play and jam for years with the same people, you build up a lot of melodies and rhythms together, and it can seem prearranged, because you are able to play the same or a similar melody today and a few months from now without any further rehearsing or anything.
[/quote]

Ok, what about their very slick changes during this entirely spontaneous jam? There's never somebody on stage going "Oh f***, we aren't playing in E-minor at 120bpm anymore?". It's just too clean to ever make me think that it's anything other than pre-arranged.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1357396413' post='1922036']Lots of people know its uncool to be a theory geek and keep it quiet, Blur are a good example IMO right bunch of nerds that kept it quiet until after the glory days of squaring up with the Oasis brothers had passed [/quote]

TBH right from the start of 'There's No Other Way' it was pretty obvious Coxon knew what he was doing. It sounded like something Johnny Marr might have played.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1357397722' post='1922069']
TBH right from the start of 'There's No Other Way' it was pretty obvious Coxon knew what he was doing. It sounded like something Johnny Marr might have played.
[/quote]

I was young and impressionable back then and they just sounded cool to me, thats the trick, knowing your onions but making it look casual

[Ancient Mariner]

From the OP:
[quote]I can learn a song pretty quickly just by listening to it, and working it out myself[/quote]

I think this is what tells me you're a musician, rather than a technician who can remember a few notes & phrases. This tells me that you can hear and interpret music, rather than just reading notation or tab.

[quote]I've heard this before a few times. Classical musicians are trained to read and understand music to a high level, and play perfectly in unison with 20/30/40 sometimes more, other musicians.

I think being able to play an entire composition perfectly (remembering the emphasis on dynamics in classical music) while reading the sheet and watching the mental guy flail his arms about which somehow tells you when to play and when not to, is a far harder thing to perfect. Improvisation is an entirely subjective thing, so nearly anybody could improvise something and somebody would think it was good. Not the same for classical music.[/quote]

I've done both, though neither to a tremendously high standard. Both forms are valid, and both forms have a natural tendency to mediocrity for those who are less than truly excellent. The one that is easier is the one that tends toward whatever you find requires less effort (I know it's obvious, but often overlooked none the less). For me, playing brass was purely technical: hit the right notes at the right volume following the guidance in the notation. Brain a little involved, heart not really. When I'm improvising and flowing well when playing guitar, brain, heart and body are all working hard and deeply involved. However I can also often 'feel' the changes in many songs, and to just play along would not require much involvement at all, even if I've never met the song before, and can play at nothing more than a technical level.

[BILL POSTERS]

only skimmd this thread. Reading too much on forums like this can, and does sometimes make me doubt my own ability, even though I been playing Bass on and off since the early 70s. Like the OP, I dont know any theory, never had a lesson, and worked it out for myself. People tell me I have a great feel for what i do, and Ilike to believe them, mostly.

So dont let all the techspeak put you off, never mind Musician, your a Bass Player, nothing wrong with doing it from memory, although hopefully you dont play everything parrot fashion, and its not just ' put your finger here, then there etc' there will be those who reckon you should sight read everything.

I dont know many people who talk theory all of the time, nor who read music. Nothing wrong with those people who do it that way, as long as they dont get all snobby and superior about it.

Edited January 5, 2013 by BILL POSTERS

[JakeBrownBass]

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Edited January 19, 2013 by JakeBrownBass