Conan Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 [quote name='Mikey R' timestamp='1357721745' post='1927086'] A better player will know what they want from their kit, that is the absolute extent of it. [/quote] They may know what they want, but will they know how to get it? Often it is not until you actually try (and/or buy) a piece of equipment that you find out if it delivers what you thought it would. Which brings us back to the GAS again... You can read all the manufacturer's specs you like, but it's not until you actually use something that you find out if it is for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 [quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1357691498' post='1926984'] Would you say this is only true of good instruments or any instruments? I'd have thought it would be the same for any instrument. That is, you can control the tone in the same way with the same effect, even if the instruments natural tone is not as good as another's. [/quote] By good, I mean playable. Quality strings and transparent pickups. As opposed to bad, dead strings, warped necks, rattling machine heads and dead spots etc. Most instruments you buy nowadays are good. The better the instrument, the easier it is to play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1357720273' post='1927067'] Yes. Thanks for the lecture but I am well aware of this! It was me who made the comment about being buried in the mix. ... [/quote] Yes I didn't really want to highlight certain people because it was more of a general observation. If you're digging in everytime you play every note on every tune then you need to look at the gear. You're obviously not, some people may be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1357725359' post='1927148'] The better the instrument, the easier it is to play. [/quote] True. And, these days, more expensive does not always equal "better". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 [quote name='Inti' timestamp='1357692377' post='1926991'] No?... [/quote] Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 I think if you're going to plug your bass straight into your amp and just tweak the EQ a bit, then the sound that comes out is around 50% bass, 30% amp/cab, 20% fingers. 20% isn't insignificant, but then you can see how that diminishes the more you add effects and processing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1357728563' post='1927229'] ....the sound that comes out is around 50% bass, 30% amp/cab, 20% fingers.... [/quote] To a bass player maybe, but to a band the split is probably closer to 80% fingers and 20% the rest. To an audience the split is 80% singer, 20% the guitarist and "what bass player?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1357732641' post='1927332'] ...to a band the split is probably closer to 80% fingers and 20% the rest. [/quote] Dont' understand the reasoning there at all?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 (edited) [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1357733522' post='1927353'] ....Dont' understand the reasoning there at all?!?.... [/quote] Given that the sound is not bad, in my experience a band will give gigs to players (of any instruments) based on how and what they play rather than what they sound like. Edited January 9, 2013 by chris_b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero9 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Which Fender? There are two different ones listed in your signature Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveK Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 [quote name='Inti' timestamp='1357734779' post='1927384'] It's not hard to prove you wrong, just play an open string on my yamaha and then on my fender. They sound different. [b]Gear is important. Really important. All pros know this[/b]. [/quote] It's 'important' because, by and large, we're a pretty insecure bunch. We have our preferred gear in a similar way as we have our preferred pair of slippers, they make us feel at home and comfortable. There are many occasions when a band (even hugely successful bands) have to rely on supplied equipment. The manager/agent at home will stipulate to the promoter what is to be supplied, only for the band to arrive at the venue and be told, "This is the best that's available". Of course the band, after many protestations, will go on and do the gig. And predictably, after the show, the guitarist will moan that he couldn't get the sustain he's used to, the drummer will say his snare sounded like a cardboard box, and so it goes on... but guess what(?) the band doesn't actually sound noticably different to how the band sounds on home turf... with their regular gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey R Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1357723154' post='1927107'] They may know what they want, but will they know how to get it? Often it is not until you actually try (and/or buy) a piece of equipment that you find out if it delivers what you thought it would. Which brings us back to the GAS again... You can read all the manufacturer's specs you like, but it's not until you actually use something that you find out if it is for you. [/quote] Exactly - the experience of different bits of kit, different instruments, different setups, is all built up over time. Thats what Im arguing is part of what makes a player better, as well as mastery of fingering and fretting technique. As to arguing over the percentage of each of the ingredients is important, youre going to get a different set of numbers from each bassist - that just the way it is, we all value different parts of the craft differently, and next year we may reevaluate our percentages. Cheers guys, an interesting discussion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 [quote name='Inti' timestamp='1357734664' post='1927380'] Meaning that given any instruments Metallica would still sound Metallica. And the same goes for any band. I find this to be quite true as long as the music is not hard to play... [/quote] All you've said there is that provided the songs are the same, the sound is the same. I think most bands would disagree. Metallica plugged into a bunch of marshall MG combos would sound like Metallica but sh*t, and they would know it. I was responding to [quote]to a band the split is probably closer to 80% fingers and 20% the rest.[/quote] which I just don't understand. My band realise that most of my sound comes from my pedals. what I play is totally different to how I sound, some people seem to be confusing the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 [quote name='Inti' timestamp='1357741295' post='1927570'] I could play the same line on a fender and on my yamaha and it would sound different. [/quote] It would sound different to you, and probably to us as bass players. Most guitarists or keyboard players might notice a difference. Some drummers. A few vocalists... But most audience members would neither notice nor care. It also depends on the signal path. Stick your two basses through a clean amp and a good cabinet and the differences would be fairly easy to hear. Stick a few effects in the chain and the differences in the basses bacome less apparent... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1357646237' post='1925801'] Come to my studio and plug your fingers into my bass, 25 pedal set-up, bi-amp rig, and see if you think you still have "your sound" I'll readily admit it won't sound exactly the same as me playing, but it won't sound very far off. How you play obviously affects your tone, but depending on what you do to the signal, that effect can vary from moderate to subtle to pretty much non-existant. [/quote] In the band I played with in the 90s I started off as the bass player. We used a lot of technology and I was playing an Overwater going through a Peavey Spectrum Filter and Peavey Bassfex then bi-amped into 1x15 and 2x8 cabs. After the original guitarist left and we spent almost a year unsuccessfully looking for a suitable replacement, I switched to guitar and we got a new bass player. He used his P-bass copy through my rig and to all intents and purposes in the band mix sounded exactly the same as I had. We had one song that we had started recording before the line-up change and consequently by the time we had finished tracking we had bass tracks with playing by both myself and the new bassist. The difference in sound between the two was negligible and TBH I can't remember whose playing ended up in the final mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Most audience members wouldn't notice or care that the guitar and bass are EQ'd sympathetically, or that the ride cymbal was chosen to fit with that mix. That doesn't mean it's not worth doing, because the audience will notice that the band sounds good (or conversley sh*t). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1357745326' post='1927690'] Most audience members wouldn't notice or care that the guitar and bass are EQ'd sympathetically, or that the ride cymbal was chosen to fit with that mix. That doesn't mean it's not worth doing, because the audience will notice that the band sounds good (or conversley sh*t). [/quote] Absolutely! It's the overall sound that counts, but of course that overall sound is the sum of many parts. Get the parts wrong and the sum total will be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveK Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 [quote name='Inti' timestamp='1357741295' post='1927570'] I'm not speaking about insecurity here. There's a big difference between what you play and how you sound. I could play the same line on a fender and on my yamaha and[b] it would sound different.[/b] Amazing how some people have such hard time accepting this fact. Fascinating. [/quote]But not as different as you might imagine. There has been various examples (I think, some even posted on here) where someone has played the same line on different basses and we have to guess which bass is which, results are quite surprising. Our hands and fingers tell us one thing, while our ears are more easily fooled. Amazing how some people have such hard time accepting this fact. Fascinating Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveK Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 I'm reminded of an interview of a renowned guitarist (whose name I can't remember), who after playing a few licks was told by the interviewer that [i]the guitar sounds great[/i], upon which the guitarist handed the guitar to the interviewer and said, "Let's hear how great it sounds now". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumperbob 2002 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 [quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1357745979' post='1927714'] I'm reminded of an interview of a renowned guitarist (whose name I can't remember), who after playing a few licks was told by the interviewer that [i]the guitar sounds great[/i], upon which the guitarist handed the guitar to the interviewer and said, "Let's hear how great it sounds now". [/quote] On that great comment what else can possibly be said? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mornats Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 [quote name='Inti' timestamp='1357741295' post='1927570'] I'm not speaking about insecurity here. There's a big difference between what you play and how you sound. I could play the same line on a fender and on my yamaha and it would sound different. Amazing how some people have such hard time accepting this fact. Fascinating. [/quote] During my bass lessons I'll be using either my Overwater or Rockbass and my tutor will be using his Musicman Stingray. All three basses sound different to each other true, but by far and away the largest perceivable difference in sound comes from when I play a bass (any of them) and my tutor plays the same bass. So this is the point that I was contributing to the discussion - being taught a better technique and improving ones ability to play makes a more noticeable difference to the quality of the bass's sound than changing instruments. I think what has been missing here (and is possibly my fault) is the emphasis on the difference being in the [i]quality[/i] of sound, not just change in tone. Or to put it in other words, I'd be far better off spending £100 on bass lessons than £1000 on a bass if I wanted to sound better. So yes you're right, basses do sound different (even all non-pro's know this...) but I think I wasn't clear in the point I was trying to get across! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Think of it like a cake. Your bass is the base, plain sponge, chocolate, whatever, you can chose what you want. The player puts the icing and decorations on it. Thick, thin, hundreds and thousands, jelly tots. The cake is basically unchanged but looks and tastes quite different with different toppings. Then you take the beautifully baked and iced cake, drop it in a bowl, pour on some jelly and top it with custard. That's your band... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan_da_man Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 I think a lot of people are getting confused about the 'sound like me' thing. When I say 'sound like me', I'm not talking about the tone of the bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted January 9, 2013 Author Share Posted January 9, 2013 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1357725359' post='1927148'] The better the instrument, the easier it is to play. [/quote] Should that be the easier it is to play, the better the instrument? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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