Bass tone - Mostly the player isn't it?

[4 Strings]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1357732641' post='1927332']
To a bass player maybe, but to a band the split is probably closer to 80% fingers and 20% the rest.

To an audience the split is 80% singer, 20% the guitarist and "what bass player?"
[/quote]

Have a look at those bits in the Jaco clip, 90% player, 10% gear.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='Inti' timestamp='1357734664' post='1927380']
Meaning that given any instruments Metallica would still sound Metallica. And the same goes for any band.
[/quote]

Quite. Regardless of how the neck of one of the guitars is sawn.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1357738642' post='1927499']
what I play is totally different to how I sound, some people seem to be confusing the two.
[/quote]

No, the point is that they are linked. How you play would be more to the point.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1357745566' post='1927698']
But not as different as you might imagine. There has been various examples (I think, some even posted on here) where someone has played the same line on different basses and we have to guess which bass is which, results are quite surprising. Our hands and fingers tell us one thing, while our ears are more easily fooled.
Amazing how some people have such hard time accepting this fact. Fascinating
[/quote]

Please, do look at the Jaco clip at the timings suggested. The Jaco sound is a fretless Jazz. He plays his Jazz with a fretted neck and also some other bass, sounding totally different. All sounds like Jaco though (if you're familiar with Jaco,that is, I chose him because most bass players would be).

[mr zed]

[quote name='Inti' timestamp='1357755297' post='1927938']
[size=4][color=#0000FF][font=Times]"Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."[/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Times] (Matthew 7:6).[/font][/color][/size]

[size=1]Over and out.[/size]
[/quote]

You're not related to Eric Cantona by any chance are you?

[51m0n]

Bass tone is not equivalent to note choice or phrasing, the first is the timbre the second the performance

Bass tone is very much to do with how the player strikes/plucks/thumps/pops/thumbs/[i]plays[/i] the string but that is far from exclusively the thing that defines the tone, depending on the amount that physical input is changed by the signal path that follows before it gets to the listeners brain.

I have trouble [i]playing[/i] like anyone else, however I can make basses [i]sound[/i] like different basses or even different instrumetns, especially in the studio.

So what do you define as bass [i]tone[/i]?

For me it has to be the sum of [i]all[/i] the parts that go into it, with the exception of note choice and phrasing, since they dont define timbre but performance. Marcus Miller is a great exponent of slapping, and plays lines that anyone [s]sane[/s] else would play fingerstyle, yet his phrasing and performance are every bit as engaging as the normal fingerstyle or picked line (provided you aren't anti-slapping because, you know, it ain't rock).

By that definition, given enough electronics (like those found in a full on PA or studio, or well featured amp with at least a great compressor and limiter and some form of saturation) I can make one bass do a very passable job of sounding just like another bass in a mix, but I cant make one player's performance sound like another player, especially if they have a large difference in skill level or a huge difference in playing style (ie one slaps and the other uses a muted thumb) although in some cases the style can be taken out of the equation at least to a certain extent, it requires plenty of processing, which will usually hide nuances in one or the other style (which may be a good thing).

The place where that really falls down IMO though ius when the performance is hugely dependant on fx, like Shep's dubstep stuff, that is probably more down to the processing he applies than any amount of phrasing nuances (possible exception being how far envelope filters are opened, but even then sensitivity changes to the filter could make another player sound very similar). We arent talking a touch of octaver and a chorus here though, his fx setup is hugely complex and very carefully tailored to the material he is creating. Which makes it nigh on unique to him at any given time, and therefore you would probably find it easier to replicate his tone using synths. Of course the argument there is that he isnt really playing bass, merely using a bass as a signal generator for a hugely complex modular synth system, after all I can definitely make another fretless sound like his Roscoes do in a normal mix, just not in his particular choice of musical endeavour.

[TimR]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1357811753' post='1928639']
...

The place where that really falls down IMO though ius when the performance is hugely dependant on fx, like Shep's dubstep stuff, that is probably more down to the processing he applies than any amount of phrasing nuances (possible exception being how far envelope filters are opened, but even then sensitivity changes to the filter could make another player sound very similar). We arent talking a touch of octaver and a chorus here though, his fx setup is hugely complex and very carefully tailored to the material he is creating. Which makes it nigh on unique to him at any given time, and therefore you would probably find it easier to replicate his tone using synths. Of course the argument there is that he isnt really playing bass, merely using a bass as a signal generator for a hugely complex modular synth system, after all I can definitely make another fretless sound like his Roscoes do in a normal mix, just not in his particular choice of musical endeavour.
[/quote]

You could also argue that he (the player) set all this up carefully himself. He didn't just buy some new gear that magically changed his tone.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1357811753' post='1928639'] Bass tone is not equivalent to note choice or phrasing, the first is the timbre the second the performance Bass tone is very much to do with how the player strikes/plucks/thumps/pops/thumbs/[i]plays[/i] the string ...etc. [/quote]

Not being disrespectful in the snip.

If you distinguish too much between electronic tone and performance much is lost. If we were playing Rhodes pianos, where the metal bit is struck mechanically, then such a distinction is more possible (although even there, Donald Fagen, for example, is pretty distinctive).

As the string is plucked by the player its very much an organic (sorry, can't think of a better word) type thing. This is related to phrasing etc which is why Jaco sounds like Jaco on virtually any bass, a fretless (where there is even more user influence) in particular.

There is certainly a case for, specially session musicians, to be 'bass guitar operators' and to produce the tone, phrasing etc required by the producer for a certain song (Bob Babbit - was it in Standing in the Shadows? - said that the engineers often said the bass sounded good; he knew they didn't mean his playing.) But Bob's sound is easily identifiable from that of Jamerson in Motown recordings, both using a Precision with flats. I regularly play Babbit lines (eg Signed Sealed is in the sets of two bands in which I play) and it sounds like me, despite the same notes and a Precision with flats.

It's easy to confuse these things together, because, I believe, they are related.

[51m0n]

I think the definitions are vital here, and your snip is the part where I said that how the player actually plucks the string is a vital part of the timbre.

But I stand by the fact that I can manipulate the result to blur those differences - certainly within the same general style of playing - to make it something very different if I need to. Compressors, transient designers, limiters, eqs, saturation can all drastically change the timbre at a very very nuanced level with incredibly specific control. They cant change the phrasing (not so much) or the notes (not at all).

I think we recognise note choice and phrasing as being of a certain player far more than timbre. By that regard a players playing is unigue, and nuances in these areas of playing are readily identifiable to seasoned listeners for them.

So it doesnt matter if player A is using a particular instrumetn, or technique, or signal path, they are almost always recognisable as the player to people on the know. By that regard the 'sound' of a player is completely in their hands.

However their timbre can be manipulated to sound absolutely nothing like them normally at all.

FInd me a multitrack of Marcus Miller playing fingerstyle (I'd even have a go at a slap line for a laugh), and I'll make his bass timbrely sound similar to Aston 'Family Man' Barret (in a mix at least). I will need to do a great deal of processing to transients, some heavy low pass filtering and a fair amount of saturation and eq to do it, but it could be done. It wouldnt sound like Marcus playing any more, in terms of timbre, but it certainly wouldn't sound like Aston in terms of performance either.

Edited January 10, 2013 by 51m0n

[cheddatom]

I would not deny that one player can make the same gear sound different to another player. However, given the right set up, if I was given two different bassists, playing the same bass lines, I could make them sound almost identical. To me that's the crux, and it demonstrates that while the playing style/technique/whatever does have an effect, this effect can be minimal given the right set-up. I know this to be the case because I've done it.

[4 Strings]

Part of my lad's Creative Music Tech course he made a crashing saucepan lid sound like a piano, through audio manipulation, and play a complex piece. This isn't the point.

51mon said "I think we recognise note choice and phrasing as being of a certain player far more than timbre. By that regard a players playing is unigue, and nuances in these areas of playing are readily identifiable to seasoned listeners for them." (sorry, snipped again!) and is kind of along the lines of the point.

The playing (the fingers) is way more important to the music, tone, sound etc than subtleties in bass construction, we can identify the players more easily that the gear, if we want to sound good we should be improving our playing not the perceived improvement of our gear, and yet the very broad 'we' appear to be more interested in improving gear.

[cheddatom]

I don't think that the "quest for tone" is opposed to improving your technique at all.

I like to practise acoustically at home, but when I play with a band, I use a lot of gear to get the sound I want.

[SteveK]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1357818818' post='1928826']
[i]I don't think that the "quest for tone" is opposed to improving your technique at all.[/i]

I like to practise acoustically at home, but when I play with a band, I use a lot of gear to get the sound I want.
[/quote]
From time to time on BC a thread comes along, along the lines of,[i] 'I've tried this amp, I've tried this bass, that amp and that bass, yet I still can't get the sound I'm after'.[/i] My suspicion is that almost every combination of bass and amp (assuming reasonable/appropriate quality) is capable of delivering the sound that the poster is after. There are 2 obvious things (to my mind) at play here... Either the poster is clueless on how to use the gear (EQ, gain, compressor etc), or his technique is letting him down.
The answer is simple: If you've got appropriate gear and you still don't like your sound, before parting with even more of your cash, take a good hard look at your technique.

BTW a couple of posts have mentioned FX boards and heavy processing. I assume that we all know that no matter how good your fingers, you're not going to be able to emulate the sound of a Big Muff, stereo chorus, octaver etc without some outboard jiggery-pokery. My feeling is that that's a whole different discussion to the one prompted by the OP.

[BigRedX]

But saying that what we're really listening to is phrasing and note choice tends to re-enforce my point that players with a recognisable or signature tone mostly play with in a single genre.

IME as soon as you start playing different kinds of music then (if you are listening properly to the other musicians) how and what you play change to fit each different style. Well I certainly do. Before my current band I don't think I'd ever played more than a handful of chromatic runs - now they are all over lots of our songs. Also the way I phrase my basslines is completely different because the styles of the songs I'm playing are different and each needs it's own individual approach. I would defy anyone to listen to the bass in the Terrortones and in my previous band and identify them as being the work the same bassist

[51m0n]

The sound I hear is the sum of everything that has happened to make it.

I cant always easily seperate timbre (or tone) from phrasing and note choice in my head when thinking about people playing their music, but I think I can probably do so better than most because of my experience with tracking and especially mixing, which is hugely obsessive about tiny minutiae in timbre (tone) and fitting different instruments together and so on.

I think anyone without that training/mindset (to be able to listen to timbre first and foremost then note choice & phrasing & performance second, or the other way around at will when tracking rather than mixing) really struggles at all to perceive that the seperation exists at all. It does for sure, but its not always obvious.

[51m0n]

I also think some people definitely carry their personality across genres, they have signature licks and fills and a certain way of feeling the time within a beat that crosses genres.

Just to be difficult BBX

[4 Strings]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1357823090' post='1928940'] But saying that what we're really listening to is phrasing and note choice tends to re-enforce my point that players with a recognisable or signature tone mostly play with in a single genre. IME as soon as you start playing different kinds of music then (if you are listening properly to the other musicians) how and what you play change to fit each different style. Well I certainly do. Before my current band I don't think I'd ever played more than a handful of chromatic runs - now they are all over lots of our songs. Also the way I phrase my basslines is completely different because the styles of the songs I'm playing are different and each needs it's own individual approach. I would defy anyone to listen to the bass in the Terrortones and in my previous band and identify them as being the work the same bassist [/quote]

I think this may be fair enough, to an extent. If it were possible to hear Jamerson or Jaco (to use the same examples as before) playing Metallica may not sound like we'd expect and so not be so easily recognisable. Metallica would sound different too.

But most well known musicians (ie, those whom we'd recognise from their playing and/or tone) do play in a single genre, don't they?

[cheddatom]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1357822160' post='1928905']
From time to time on BC a thread comes along, along the lines of,[i] 'I've tried this amp, I've tried this bass, that amp and that bass, yet I still can't get the sound I'm after'.[/i] My suspicion is that almost every combination of bass and amp (assuming reasonable/appropriate quality) is capable of delivering the sound that the poster is after. There are 2 obvious things (to my mind) at play here... Either the poster is clueless on how to use the gear (EQ, gain, compressor etc), or his technique is letting him down.
The answer is simple: If you've got appropriate gear and you still don't like your sound, before parting with even more of your cash, take a good hard look at your technique.

BTW a couple of posts have mentioned FX boards and heavy processing. I assume that we all know that no matter how good your fingers, you're not going to be able to emulate the sound of a Big Muff, stereo chorus, octaver etc without some outboard jiggery-pokery. My feeling is that that's a whole different discussion to the one prompted by the OP.
[/quote]

I guess it depends how you approach your sound. For me personally, I like my bass to sound like a piano, with varying amounts of distortion applied on top, plus any number of weird textured sounds. These are all my selection of bass tones. Of course I also use different playing techniques to widen my selection of tones even further

For example, I've found I need a guitar amp, coupled with a bass amp, to give me the hi-mids I desire. The majority of bass set-ups will not give me the sound I want.

Because of the way I approach my bass sounds, I seperate the "sound" of the bass from the actual performance of the bass. It's clear that most people see them as intertwined. Fair enough! But my approach certainly helps in the studio when someone says "I want that sound you got on X song".

Edited January 10, 2013 by cheddatom

[Mikey R]

So is the problem here that people new to bass come to BC to get some tips, and come away with the impression that as well as practicing like hell, they also need to spend a load of money on a rig? That would be bad.

I kinda see where youre coming from. I have seen a few threads where people have got half of the message, got a complicated and difficult to use rig that doesnt suit them, and are struggling to get it to work for them. My point is that [i]owning[/i] a rig that gives you that kind of control doesnt make you a good bassplayer. A good bassplayer, through experience and research, might have figured out how to build the rig they need and get the kinds of sounds they want from it.

Personally, Im going through a bit of a gear head phase. Since joining BC, going to a few bashes and listening to some very interesting talks, Ive started experimenting with valve amps and compressors. This has improved my tone, and now that my kit can reproduce subtleties in what I play that were previously hidden, I play a little differently. This is a good thing.

[urb]

I think tone is a combination of several things but I guess an individual player's 'sound' is a mix of technique, gear, and experience - and personally speaking for me Gary Willis is a great example of someone who's created an instrument that magnifies the aspects of their ideal tone they have in their head, while he's [i]also[/i] adjusted his technique to bring out further aspects of his playing... obviously there are countless other examples of this - and speaking personally it's a process I've been following for about ten years - modifying my technique but then over time finding the gear that also helps create 'my' sound. Saying that I did a gig a few years ago where I shared the bill with another bassist - we were actually busking and I on;y had an acoustic bass guitar - but the other band had a full amp/bass/PA set up which they kindly lent to us... long story short I used this other guy's Fender Jazz bass and while it wasn't set up exactly how I wanted it, I DID sound totally different to this other bassist - so yes, alot of it is in your fingers I think