monitor systems, pro's and con's

[essexbasscat]

Hi there

After years of faffing about and relying on others to provide the PA (and inevitably accepting the influence that goes along with it), I'm now at the point of studying PA's in general to inform choices about what to buy, what to avoid etc. Monitors are the current items under scrutiny. Reading around the topic on old threads throws up quite a few different recommendations, which generate yet more questions.

While writing this up, I've realised I have more than a few questions about how to connect monitors to the desk, combinations of active and / or passive, mixtures of signals into monitors, amplification for monitors and the implications for load etc etc.
Some folk advocate passive systems, as individual parts appear to be easier to upgrade without scrapping whole sections of the PA. Others promote active components, often citing ease of connection and fewer things to carry. There seem to be fans of both camps.

Is there a comprehensive guide on the topic ? I'm going this route rather than starting off numerous threads at this point. I've no doubt I'll be asking for clarification on some issues along the way, but this seems to be a good way to start.

All contributions appreciated

Thanks all

Edited January 7, 2013 by essexbasscat

[deepbass5]

I did run a passive system for years had 4 x old Ohm wedges with single 10" and bullet but everyone got the same mix and if any one jack got bent or a short and you lose the lot. so i now have three ALTO active monitors I have one mix on the front line for singer and guitarist and a seperate mix for the drummer who sings. Beauty is you can carry on adding as many as you need.
check out the Alto range the are good and double as small PA for practise. I paid alot for mine when they came out, nearly £350 each for the 10 " these have now been re launched and you can get the 12" model for about £250 they are 350 watts each. most mixers have two slave outs to run monitors from you can often select pre or post EQ. most mixers will actually have three slaves but one is normally for effects send.
http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=ALTSXM112A&browsemode=manufacturer

[Truckstop]

I had the following:

Powered mixer powering 4x passive speakers (2 subs, 2 tops) for FOH
Then
Ran two powered monitors with one passive monitor each off two 'Aux-outs' from the mixer (total of four monitors; drums, guitar, vox and keys).

There's all sorts of combinations you can go for but essentially auxiliary outputs are your friend for monitors.

A guy I know uses a passive mixer with a 2k power amp for FOH and a smaller 500w power amp for the (passive) monitors. Problem being you can't change the monitor mix.

Just buy loads of any old sh*t and see what sticks.

Truckstop

[essexbasscat]

Thanks DB5.

Active monitors do offer the flexibility of accepting a signal mix suited to the individual band member, which is a huge plus. By slave outs of the mixing desk, are you referring to auxillary sends ?

While the active route appears to be very simple, I wouldn't mind learning more about the in and outs of passive and passive/active combinations as well.

[essexbasscat]

[quote name='Truckstop' timestamp='1357586671' post='1924970']
I had the following:

Powered mixer powering 4x passive speakers (2 subs, 2 tops) for FOH
Then
Ran two powered monitors with one passive monitor each off two 'Aux-outs' from the mixer (total of four monitors; drums, guitar, vox and keys).

There's all sorts of combinations you can go for but essentially auxiliary outputs are your friend for monitors.

A guy I know uses a passive mixer with a 2k power amp for FOH and a smaller 500w power amp for the (passive) monitors. Problem being you can't change the monitor mix.

Just buy loads of any old sh*t and see what sticks.

Truckstop
[/quote]

Thanks Truckstop. Interesting about the 500w amp for the monitors. Is there really no way to change the monitor mix if you use an amp ? would it be possible to send two individual signals to the amp, one each side ? accepted odd numbers of monitors per side may not be possible due to ohmage issues ?

I've read time and again about using a 31 band Equaliser with monitors to address feedback issues. Anyone know how one of these would be connected ?

Apologies for the ongoing evolving questions, just going from the beginning here.

[EBS_freak]

How many band members? budget?

[flyfisher]

Good topic!

I'm certainly no expert but I've faced a similar situation. Also, as 'expert' can be a relative term, I seem to be the 'expert-elect' in the bands I play in, either through their lack of knowledge or lack of interest by my band mates.

Initially, we had a vocal-only PA with passive speakers and no monitoring at all. For small venues this could be OK but was often difficult to get a good mix . . . especially if anyone actually turned up and the venue acoustics changed a lot from when we did the soundcheck.

So I got a separate mixer and PA (2x powered Mackie heads + one powered sub) and used the vocal-only PA as monitors. I've also added a Wharfedale powered wedge monitor. I paid attention to the number of mixer channels but not really to the number of aux outputs, so I've ended up with two pre-fade aux outs and two post-fade aux outs. The post-fade aux outs are not really any good for monitors so that means I can only have two monitor mixes. This is just about OK but if I was buying another mixer I'd be looking for 4 outputs (one band has 6 members). I've also sometimes used a small guitar combo as a separate monitor for the drummer.

I'd say powered monitors are the way to go because, apart from reducing the number of boxes and cables involved, they enable volume levels (if not the mix) to be adjusted on stage if necessary, which gives the performers a bit more feeling of control - though this can be a double-edged sword of course. Also, it means that only balanced line-level signals need to be routed from the desk to the stage (though that can also be achieved by putting any separate monitor amps on the stage somewhere) and makes it less likely to mix up speaker and instrument jack cables. Ideally I'd aim to only have speakons for speaker cables, jacks for instruments and XLRs for everything else, but I'm not quite there yet.

I've also got a dual 30-ish band equaliser that I have connected between the desk output and the main PA but, to be honest, I'm not very adept at using it and tend to leave it switched into 'pass-thru' mode most of the time - but we're not really all that loud so are not often battling feedback problems. Still, it looks good in the mixer rack. The same applies to the Behringer Feedback Destroyer I bought but have never used in anger.

[essexbasscat]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1357587750' post='1924998']
How many band members? budget?
[/quote]

HI EBS Freak. Thinking around the topic at the moment. THe band I'm with at the moment have their own PA, which has vocals, keys and electronic drums through it, with additional backline amps for guitars and bass. Not looking to replace that at the mo.

I'm at the point where I'm considering what to buy for a band of my own if the need arises.

I'd like to build at least a moderate quality rig, with the option to upgrade when possible. I'd also like the rig to be flexible enough to work well with anything from a three piece up to a five piece band.

[essexbasscat]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1357588442' post='1925021']
Good topic!

I'm certainly no expert but I've faced a similar situation. Also, as 'expert' can be a relative term, I seem to be the 'expert-elect' in the bands I play in, either through their lack of knowledge or lack of interest by my band mates.

Initially, we had a vocal-only PA with passive speakers and no monitoring at all. For small venues this could be OK but was often difficult to get a good mix . . . especially if anyone actually turned up and the venue acoustics changed a lot from when we did the soundcheck.

So I got a separate mixer and PA (2x powered Mackie heads + one powered sub) and used the vocal-only PA as monitors. I've also added a Wharfedale powered wedge monitor. I paid attention to the number of mixer channels but not really to the number of aux outputs, so I've ended up with two pre-fade aux outs and two post-fade aux outs. The post-fade aux outs are not really any good for monitors so that means I can only have two monitor mixes. This is just about OK but if I was buying another mixer I'd be looking for 4 outputs (one band has 6 members). I've also sometimes used a small guitar combo as a separate monitor for the drummer.

I'd say powered monitors are the way to go because, apart from reducing the number of boxes and cables involved, they enable volume levels (if not the mix) to be adjusted on stage if necessary, which gives the performers a bit more feeling of control - though this can be a double-edged sword of course. Also, it means that only balanced line-level signals need to be routed from the desk to the stage (though that can also be achieved by putting any separate monitor amps on the stage somewhere) and makes it less likely to mix up speaker and instrument jack cables. Ideally I'd aim to only have speakons for speaker cables, jacks for instruments and XLRs for everything else, but I'm not quite there yet.

I've also got a dual 30-ish band equaliser that I have connected between the desk output and the main PA but, to be honest, I'm not very adept at using it and tend to leave it switched into 'pass-thru' mode most of the time - but we're not really all that loud so are not often battling feedback problems. Still, it looks good in the mixer rack. The same applies to the Behringer Feedback Destroyer I bought but have never used in anger.
[/quote]

Hi FF.

Am I correct in thinking that the post fade aux. outs are the FOH signal ? if yes, I'd understand why that wouldn't be suitable for on stage sound as they are two different sound requirements.

Your point about the number of aux out is well taken and very much to the point of starting this thread. I'm now on the look out for a suitable desk upgrade !

Also begs the question, why make a desk with a limited number of aux outs ?

The 30 band eq.Connected between the desk and the main PA ? not sure what this entails TBH. Do you mean the desk for the monitors and the FOH PA ? if yes, how do you do this in practical terms i.e what wire goes where ? forgive me for asking what must seem like obvious questions.

Thanks for your help here

Edited January 7, 2013 by essexbasscat

[EBS_freak]

Quick brain dump then.

OK - with regards to monitoring, the most important starting point is the desk. You need to have as many aux sends prefader as you want individual mixes. If your desk hasn't got enough sends, you are knackered from the word go as you'll be ending up sharing mixes or not having enough mixes to cover all the individuals in the bands requirements. Remember - a drummers wants from a monitor mix is very different from a vocalists... and so on. If at any point you want to go In Ears, remember you can now get stereo in ears, so you'll need twice the auxes for running up a stereo feed. In short, don't buy the wrong desk as you are usually stuck with what you get. (OK, digital desks you can expand some what from an I/O point of view)

With the advent of digital desks, aux sends are a lot more plentiful and configurable but there are still those that prefer an analogue desk. A digital desk has lots of pros and negatives but I fear that is a completely separate topic.

From an ease of use and carriage, powered monitors are the way to go. Make sure you don't buy weedy... depending upon the size of the venue, you'll soon find out that on the larger stages, you'll need some more umph if you plan on travelling any distance from your monitor. Additionally, ideally you want a bare minimum of two 31 band eqs, one for FOH mix and one for monitor mix to ring out any troublesome frequencies. This means outboard. Outboard means more carrying of gear. I don't know how serious you want to get, but ideally you should be carrying around some compressors, gates and reverb units as a minimum. Some analogue desks have reverb built in... I'm not sure of any that have onboard compression or gates... All of a sudden that expensive digital desk is looking more favourable - but having said that, I guess there are numerous bands out there who are running all the signals into the desk uneffected and applying a smidge of reverb at the backend before delivering the output to the FOH.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='essexbasscat' timestamp='1357589890' post='1925053']
Hi FF.

Am I correct in thinking that the post fade aux. outs are the FOH signal ? if yes, I'd understand why that wouldn't be suitable for on stage sound as they are two different sound requirements.
[/quote]

Not quite - not on my mixer anyway. Also I may be using the wrong terminology because I'm also still learning about such things (which is why this is a great topic!).

My FOH signal is from the 'main output' of the mixer, as mixed by each channel fader and then the overall master level controls.

The 'post-fade' aux outputs are separate mixes of all the inputs but the levels are also affected by the main channel faders.

The 'pre-fade' aux outputs are also separate mixes of all the inputs but they are not affected by the main channel faders.

Basically, if the FOH signal is turned right down, the monitors driven by the 'pre-fade' aux outputs remain unaffected.

I believe that 'post-fade' aux outputs are mainly used for effects processors, but I don't really understand the details (I'm sure others here will!).

I found it quite tricky to get my head around such things (and still do in some respects!) but found that the block diagram in the mixer manual was very helpful in understanding the signal paths involved.

For my simplistic needs, I thought that a 16-channel mixer with 4 aux outputs would be fine. I was right about the 16-channels but I was caught out by the pre/post aux output thing and my vision of simply connecting each monitor to its own separate aux-out mix wasn't possible. Having said that, two monitor mixes hasn't been too restrictive in practice, but I think it would be easier to be able to give each band member their own monitor and individual mix.

I may well be missing some trick though!


[quote name='essexbasscat' timestamp='1357589890' post='1925053']
Also begs the question, why make a desk with a limited number of aux outs ?
[/quote]

Cost and size I suppose? I've wondered the same thing myself, which makes me think I may be missing a trick somewhere!

[quote name='essexbasscat' timestamp='1357589890' post='1925053']
The 30 band eq.Connected between the desk and the main PA ? not sure what this entails TBH. Do you mean the desk for the monitors and the FOH PA ? if yes, how do you do this in practical terms i.e what wire goes where ? forgive me for asking what must seem like obvious questions.
[/quote]

In my case, I take the main desk outputs (L & R balanced line levels) and plug them into the dual equaliser unit. The equaliser outputs (balanced) then plug into the stage snake and thence into the powered PA speakers. That's how I do it anyway.

As far as the monitors are concerned, I don't have separate Eq units for these but if I did then I guess I'd connect them between the aux outs and the powered monitors in a similar way. I've never had any feedback problems with the stage monitors though.

I hope that's understandable. Diagrams would probably be more informative but I only have pdfs. PM me with an email address if you'd like me to send them to you.

Again, let me stress that all this is what I've picked up by trial and error - it may not be 'best practice'!

[Owen]

Samson headphone amp. £130 ish. Headphone extension leads and everyone brings their own in-ears. No mush from the stage monitors to worry about. MUCH less weight to carry about. Of course, biamplified 2x15 wedges would be lush, but try budget in ears. No, really.

[flyfisher]

Interesting point. I've wondered about trying some budget IEMs, but is a simple headphone amp/splitter really adequate? I'm thinking that everyone would have to share the same mix . . . or perhaps that wouldn't matter with IEMs because there would be less 'spill' from other sources? In which case, I can see the attraction.

[Owen]

The Samson has one master input, but then has an extra input on each of 4 channels (also giving individual volume control and iirc bass and treble). Each of the 4 channels will drive 3 pairs of cans. So you can have 4 seperate mixes running for 12 sets of cans. The weight saving and lack of muddy sound running off the stage is too good to be true.

[Owen]

Some people do not like the idea of IEM cos they fall out sometimes, but getting one set of moulded plugs made is still cheaper than one decent wedge.

[deepbass5]

Just to clarify - we are a four piece with three vocals. so PA and monitors are vocal only. Drums are not mic'd guitar and bass back line only. yes i meant Aux sends.
IEM are not for us you need someone you trust with the rest of your playing career.
Key point if you can live without monitors but for the main singers diction, you will be better off, no point in playing at rock bands for the sake of it.

[flyfisher]

Yes, I've wondered about IEM volume control. Can they not be limited to prevent hearing damage?

Agree about the 'playing at rock bands' thing though, and a vocal-only PA/monitor certainly makes things simpler and quicker to set up and break down. All depends on the venue I guess. I've played small pubs with a vocal-only PA but also outdoor gigs where we've had all day to set things up and play around with the sound (actually, a very good learning exercise).

But the more I learn, the more I realise how much I still have to learn!

[JTUK]

I've skimmed this but any half decent vocalist is going to want as good as monitoring system as the FOH....
and I broadly agree as they will want to hear themselves as well as poss so as to produce the best signal
to go outfront.
You can't do much with a bad signal...so best start with the best you can provide.
This, of course, applies to all signals.

So, for me..I start with something like RCF 10A or 12A's.... These are very pokey and directional
so will be able to cut the vox's head off..but at least there is not the danger of not being able to hear them.
If the monitor is poor or underpowered, the vox sings harder and strains the voice... which is not good by the end of the set..and it is certainly not good for the vocal chords over a period of time.

You could go In-ears but that depends on how many mixes you have....
Most desks will give you at least two mixes... but you have to decide how to divide the sounds you want to hear.
We send main vox to his monitoring and give him full control of that mix... the other mix is BV's and slight bleeds, but mostly our backline is good enough to take care of that anyway...so instruments stays out on the monitors on our standard P.A.
Our backline is designed to be heard all over the stage

[flyfisher]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1357598690' post='1925298']
Our backline is designed to be heard all over the stage
[/quote]

How do you achieve that?

I've played on stages where I couldn't hear one guitar except through the monitors.

[JTUK]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1357599057' post='1925309']
How do you achieve that?

I've played on stages where I couldn't hear one guitar except through the monitors.
[/quote]

We have a good mix re the intruments, and we have people who know their parts and dovetail properly
with good use of dynamics.
I can't recall the last gig where I couldn't hear any one of the instruments. We always hear, that is the whole point.
We are a 5 piece band with gtr, acoustic and keys plus bass and drums. Lead vox and 4 BV's.
Hearing what people are doing is not a problem and we are not a quiet band...

[bertbass]

We use a Yamaha MG206c mixer. This had 20 input channels, 16 mono and 2 stereo and has 4 auxiliary outputs. It has compressors on the first 8 channels and also has 4 sub groups. These are useful for if you want to set say a drum mix and control all the drums with one or two faders. We use one aux for effects, (echo) and 2 for monitors. We are a 3 piece and only want vocals in the monitors so the drummer has his own mix and the guitarist and me share a mix. We have one spare aux out. The 2 monitor mixes go to a Behringer ULTRAGRAPH PRO FBQ1502, [url="http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/FBQ1502.aspx"]http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/FBQ1502.aspx[/url], which is very handy for overall eq adjustment and for knocking out frequencies that feed back. From there the mixes go to a Peavey IPR 1600 one side of which drives one EV force 12 for the drummer and the other side drives 2 EV force 12s, one for the guitarist and one for me. The monitors are great and we can always hear them.

From the main outputs of the Yamaha we go into a 31 band stereo graphic EQ and from the graphic to an amp rack that contains a 3 way stereo crossover, a stereo limiter and then to a four channel power amp. 2 channels are bridged and these drive the bass bin on one side and the other 2 amps drive the mid and top. Also from the crossover to an amp rack on the other side of the stage containing another 4 channel amp driving the speakers on the other side of the stage. The reason for 2 amp racks is that you get no loss from long signal leads but you do get loss in long speaker leads. The limiter is used to protect the bass bins. We could do away with the crossover and limiter if we used a speaker controller like a DBX driverack or a Behringer ULTRA-DRIVE PRO DCX2496. Both of these have Real Time Analysers (RTA) built in but I used a separate RTA to set our graphic EQ.

Apart from the 2 amp racks, one 4 U and the other 2U, everything else is permanently installed in another rack. Mixer on top, then ipod shuffle, minidisc player, graphic eq for main pa, graphic eq for monitors and monitor power amp. A panel at the bottom has power in and signal and speaker outs and it all rolls around on it’s own casters. Roll it into place, connect the monitor speakers and mains in, signal leads to amp rack, speaker leads to speakers, signal leads from first rack to the other rack, speaker leads to the other speakers, mains leads to amp racks. Mics into the mixer and it’s ready to go.

I personally would avoid powered speakers as not only do you more than double the number of mains leads running about all over the place but if one stops working then you’re a bit stuffed but you can always carry a spare amp with you.

I would also have a monitor amp with a much higher wattage than you think you’ll need. 400/500 watts a channel even if you only use 50. Plenty of headroom and monitors that you can hear with little or no feedback rather than a 100w amp that can’t go loud enough.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='deepbass5' timestamp='1357596536' post='1925238']
IEM are not for us you need someone you trust with the rest of your playing career.
[/quote]

Any decent IEM systems will have a limiter built into them.

[Monckyman]

Blimey,big topic.
IEMs don`t suit everyone, but if they do, they are the best IMO way to go, no doubt at all.
Same sound gig to gig, no cymbal splash in your ear, carry in your pocket.
They mostly come with inbuilt limiters to prevent hearing damage and of course, there is a volume pot on the actual unit for easy level adjustment for the muso.
As has been said above, the trick is in getting a good set of buds or moulds that you are comfy with.
Try doing that with an active wedge.
Saying you need more aux outs or mixes for this is obvious, but you always need as many aux outs as you can get anyway.
Sharing a mix through a wedge is OK, but I thought we were trying to do better than OK?
For me, your desk needs a minimum of 6 aux outs, with at least 4 of them selectable to PRE-fade.
Not many budget desks do this I`m afraid but there are a few winners like the Allen and heath Mixwizard.
OK, Pre and Post fade..
Setting a mix or aux to PRE fade means that all the levels you send on that mix (example aux 1 bassists wedge) will be independent of level changes on the main faders. They will however share the same EQ and gain.(usually).
This is great for monitor mixes and gives you the ability to do 4 completely independent mixes for band members.
A Post fade aux would be used for sending a little of your inputs to a reverb or delay etc, and when you have that nice mix of reverb and vocal, you want it to stay that way, which because the aux send is POST fade, means the amount sent is dependant on the main fader.
Example, turning the main vocal down takes the amount of main vocal sent to the reverb down with it.
Which is nice because otherwise you`d end up with ghostly reverb vocals even though you had turned that mic right down..

I like passive rigs. I like active ones too, but I trust separate amps more, and I`m happier knowing I can change out an amp quickly, rather than open an active speaker to get at the internal fuses etc.
That said they are convenient.
At the moment we have a hybrid rig with active mackie tops and passive subs driven by a separate power amp and controlled through an active crossover.
Add a couple of monitor amps to that and you have a large heavy amp rack.
Ideally for me, I`d like to be all active FOH, for convenience and weight, but carry passive wedges for versatility and to avoid the hated power cables on the front of the stage.

Thomann do a 4 way multi amp which would suit a bands worth of passive wedges and would cut down on weight etc.

Routing aux outs in a passive system.Example

We use a digital desk with 8 aux, 4 pre, 4 post.
Aux 1 goes to the left input of a lightweight PV ipr amp (gives 250 at 8ohms per side) and the output goes to a 12" and horn wedge.
Aux 2 goes to the right input of the ipr amp and outputs to a second similar wedge.
We usually link another wedge to this mix, by daisy chaining from the wedge link through and this gives a 4 0hm load at 400watts.

The singer and guitarist share this mix, although once I find another lightweight ipr I`ll be able to give the guitarist his own mix ( I have the aux out,which would be aux 3, I just needed amplification,which if you watch the For Sale section you`ll have noted me buying a couple of poweramps so I may well have that problem sorted.Thanks Ash and Discreet).
Drummer gets aux 4 which goes to a small 4 input Tapco mixer on a stand by his right elbow, and this feeds a pair of Shure 2c in ears.
We use a click track for some tunes and this goes direct to another input on his mixer so he can control the level without any help or going through the main desk.
We can really only do this because the desk has so many aux outs, and there is internal EQ available on the outputs so I can voice the wedges properly.
Auxes 5-8 are routed to internal reverbs and delays.

On an analogue desk, if you wanted to use a graphic EQ on an aux output, you could do it two ways.
One is to insert the EQ into the insert points on the output (if the desk has insert points) and this effectively puts that EQ in to your signal chain. This is the better way as when you PFL or SOLO the mix to listen on headphones to what`s going to it, you can hear the EQ in place as well. Essential for a monitor engineer.
But.. if your desk has no inserts on the aux or mix outputs, then you can simply go from the output on the desk, to the input on the EQ, and from the output of the EQ to the input of the amp, and then the output of the amp to the input of the wedge.
This is called Inline routing as opposed to inserted.
It`ll work fine for most bands as they can hear the wedges themselves (they are effectively the monitor engineer )and can EQ to suit.

One quick work around that shared EQ and gain thing, is if you have a spare channel or two you can split a vocalists mic input to two channels with a Y split xlr cable.
One channel goes to L&R stereo output as normal, and is EQd to suit. Don`t send this to any monitor mixes.
The second channel is gained and sent to the monitors, but NOT to the L&R stereo output.
This means that you can now EQ that channel to suit the monitor wedge without affecting the Main mix.
It`s not as good as a dedicated graphic of course but it will get the job done for free and give you that bit more headroom before feedback.

Right, sore fingers!
Hope this clears some stuff up, if not, keep asking!
MM

Edited January 8, 2013 by Monckyman

[EBS_freak]

What digital desk are you using?

[Monckyman]

EBS , we have a Behringer DX3216
Stand alone you get 12 mic pres 4 line ins, stereo in, 8 aux all switchable pre or post, 4 built in editable FX ,4 band PEQ +high pass filter on all inputs and the main out, comps and gates on all inputs.
4 outs for monitors+stereo out;
4 dedicated stereo FX returns and 16 bus outs.
With the 8 way add on pre amp you can access the other 16 chans available giving 24 mic 4 line ins and 12 outputs.(8 on the pre amp unit)
All shows can be saved and edited.
If you don`t use a block of 8 inputs (24 to 32 for instance) you can route the aux outs through them digitally, and benefit from the EQ and compressors
All in a rack for £400
It`s no Midas but It`s excellent for functions and weddings.
If you don`t like the B word you could use the Yamaha 01v which is roughly equivalent but with less EQ after chan 24 and 2 less aux.

I`m lusting for the Mackie DL at the minute,though it`s half the desk the Behringer is, the iPad control makes it tempting for weddings etc.