Compression pedal vs amp compression setting?

[Pinball]

Hi I'm easily confused and there are lots of posts discussing compressor/limiter pedals on here. I read a load of posts which explain what they do, with lots of different recommendations and advice. It seems to me that this subject is more confusing than any other subject on basschat.

Anyway I'm sure I would benefit from some sort of "limiter" to cut out the peaks when playing live-not something that I have done yet with bass but i'm headed there. Before taking the plunge I thought it best to check out the following.

1. My Ashdown Evo 2 300 already has a "compression" setting and although using it "beefs-up" it beefs-up the sound, I just don't like the results. Is this typical and does this mean that I going to be wasting my money on pedals here when my amp already has compression??

2. The Harke Bass attack VXL tone sharpener/pre-amp is my favourite pedal in terms of tone and to my ears it seems to have some natural compression., Is that correct and if so am I wasting my time looking further?

Sorry to bring this subject up again but any help would be much appreciated.

I do get the "it's a personal taste thing" but need some advice to get started.

[51m0n]

There are a ton of reasons why a compressor on an amp may not work for you, its parameters will be heavily preordained and its unlikely that they will do what you want, the coimpressor circuit will be something of an afterthought as well and so probably wont be very good.

Have a read of the recording blog on compression:-
http://blog.basschat.co.uk/setting-up-a-compressor/

It will hopefully give you some more useful info about the difference between comporessors and limiters and how to set up a compressor.

Any preamp with a tube in it may add some subtle compression, but that is nto the same in terms of control and flexibility as a proper compressor.

Honestly compression isnt as hard to understand and implement as it seems, but there is a lot of conflicting info out there....

[LukeFRC]

there's a post somewhere with a massive description on how to set up a (proper) compressor properly. Think of anything with one or two knobs as a cut down version that only lets you change some perimeters- then try and understand how each one works. Otherwise you'll just get a list of folk saying "i like this pedal" etc
As a direct response- the ashdown amp compression is a very woolly beefy up type thing. Not all will be like that. It depends why you want compression?

[Pinball]

OK thanks.

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1357661890' post='1926244']
there's a post somewhere with a massive description on how to set up a (proper) compressor properly. Think of anything with one or two knobs as a cut down version that only lets you change some perimeters- then try and understand how each one works. Otherwise you'll just get a list of folk saying "i like this pedal" etc
As a direct response- the ashdown amp compression is a very woolly beefy up type thing. Not all will be like that. It depends why you want compression?
[/quote]

Basically I want something subtle and don't want to loose much character from the sound. I've put a lot of effort into finding basses that I'm happy with.
I accept that I will be altering the sound but I don't want to loose their character. Also I want to be able to retain the ability to give more "attack" through my playing style. It's finding a compromise I guess.

[Pinball]

The link from 51m0n is very useful to see graphs of the result of different playing styles. It makes total sense that I'm looking for something subtle as I play finger style for 90% of the time. It also point out that I should re-assess compression needs if I change to slap or pick.
No wonder there is so much written about this when you take into account all the variations of gear, playing styles, music styles individual tastes and compressors themselves. its a complicated subject and down to using my ears I guess.

[51m0n]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1357661890' post='1926244']
there's a post somewhere with a massive description on how to set up a (proper) compressor properly. Think of anything with one or two knobs as a cut down version that only lets you change some perimeters- then try and understand how each one works. Otherwise you'll just get a list of folk saying "i like this pedal" etc
As a direct response- the ashdown amp compression is a very woolly beefy up type thing. Not all will be like that. It depends why you want compression?
[/quote]

That will be one of mine I think.....

[dincz]

Depends whether you're looking for compression or limiting. A limiter will not affect your sound below a certain threshold level but will prevent it from getting any louder than that threshold. A compressor will squash dynamic range over a range of levels. A compressor with a good range of controls (especially threshold and ratio) will allow you to achieve either.

[Lozz196]

[quote name='Pinball' timestamp='1357720389' post='1927068']
OK thanks.



Basically I want something subtle and don't want to loose much character from the sound. I've put a lot of effort into finding basses that I'm happy with.
I accept that I will be altering the sound but I don't want to loose their character. Also I want to be able to retain the ability to give more "attack" through my playing style. It's finding a compromise I guess.
[/quote]

A very subtle, yet effective compressor is the EBS Multi-Comp. Does exactly as what you`re after. Find one on here 2nd hand, if you don`t like it you`ll be able to move it on for what you paid for it.

[Pinball]

OK thanks

[ZenBasses]

The EBS Multi-Comp is probably the best pedal for the job..The EBS fafner I have has a compressor built in and its the dogs (i guess not much different from the pedal)...only when you drive it to the extreme (9 10 11.!!)does it start to sound 'less' musical.

I also have Behringer compressor that although is great for studio use, for the live bass rig you're better off IMO to have a dedicated pedal. If you're in the middle of a set and you need more or less...just 1 dial is easier to mess around with rather altering many...

[51m0n]

[quote name='dincz' timestamp='1358018140' post='1932003']
Depends whether you're looking for compression or limiting. A limiter will not affect your sound below a certain threshold level but will prevent it from getting any louder than that threshold. A compressor will squash dynamic range over a range of levels. A compressor with a good range of controls (especially threshold and ratio) will allow you to achieve either.
[/quote]

Strictly speaking, neither a compressor nor a limiter will affect your sound below the level of the threshold. And both will affect any sound over that level. If you set the threshold level low both will affect a large part of the signal.

The difference is that a compressor tends to have a lower ratio than a limiter (which has as high a ratio as possible - at least 10:1, often more like 20:1 or even greater), furthermore a limiter tends to test the level that instant, whilst most compressors tend to measure level over a short period of time taking an average of level over that period so as to be more subtle. Final point comrpessors can be hard or soft kneed.

[url="http://blog.basschat...p-a-compressor/"]Read the blog here for more detail[/url]

[RandomBass]

I've been round in several circles to get where I am today on this topic. I tried out several different models, some of which were quite expensive, but I kept coming back to my (wait for it...), Behringer BLE100, which is a clone of the Boss LMB-3. I now have the real mcoy (an LMB3).

All I need is a Threshold and Ratio - the LMB3 (and the BLE) allow anything from zero compression (1:1 ratio), right up to hard limiting (infinity to one ratio). The LMB is quieter and the Enhance knob slightly less offensive - the BLE adds too much noise if you use the Enhance knob. I also find the LMB threshold goes to a lower limit.

I see that Behringer now also do a BLE400 - I have no odea how this varies from the BLE100, and whether it is an improvement or not.

Try some out, but don't overlook either of the ones I've mentioned above.

Cheers

Geoff

Edited January 13, 2013 by RandomBass

[Pinball]

Thanks Geoff.

I have a Boss ME70 guitar multi effects and have been experimenting with the Comp/FX settings while running my bass through that. That is certainly headed in the right direction so I will check out the boss unit. In-fact I was wondering if I could get away with using the Guitar Multi-effects ME-70 as quite a few of the effects sound greart. My only concern is that I may be loosing some "bass".

I saw a Youtube a comparison between a digitech unit and Behringer and the behringer was very much as you described. I really didn't like the roughness/noise. The Digitech sounded Ok to my ears.

Edited January 13, 2013 by Pinball

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1357721811' post='1927088']
That will be one of mine I think.....
[/quote]

Yep and very, very useful its been too. Thanks for taking the time to write it. It really showed me how to set my MXR M87 up, and once it was all set up i realised i dont need it lol.

Edited January 14, 2013 by dave_bass5

[51m0n]

Glad it helped

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1358157021' post='1933793']
Glad it helped
[/quote]

It did, and having the input/compression meter on the M87 also helped me work through your guide. I know a lot of people say whats the point with all the lights but being able to see exactly whats going really helped me understand and get the best from it. Its just a shame that it made me realise (yet again) that i don't need one.

[51m0n]

If you dont need ocmpression on your rig you dont need compression on your rig, unless you want to have it on sometimes in a more overt and 'affected' way (think Tony Levin's line on Sledgehammer).

That guide should give someone th eknowledge required to generate a really in yer face compressed tone too.

Of course, if you have no place for that either then thats cool too.

The meters are beyond invaluable, compression is super super hard to hear - pretty much every contempory recorded bass part over the last 20 or 30 years has compression on it, its what people are actually used to hearing, but it doesnt always stand out like the Sledgehammer line, because set up differently you can't hear the compression, instead you just hear the bass part all the time. Any pedal without useful meters on it gets labelled as subtle unless you over use it, and there is no way of telling how hard it can squash your signal either. Fact is it may just not do much compression, or it may do plenty and be really transparent - outsode of a mix unless you really know what you are doing you probably wont be able to tell the difference IME...

[dave_bass5]

I got it as we play a lot of social clubs and they dont like loud volume, so being able to restrict the volume of the bass without losing the punch, and for the times when i pick too hard, seemed like a good idea.
I like the sound of a slightly compressed P bass, and i can definitely hear this at gigs, its just that i also feel with the way my drummer tends to get louder and softer (sometimes even during a single verse) what starts out as a good level or mix, can turn in to a cymbal mix and with the comp on i cant match the levels without making adjustments almost on the fly. Its just easier not to use it most of the time, or start off louder and play quieter. I realise of course that this is all wrong but its beyond my control, believe me ive tried many times to sort this out.
At least with the metering i can tell if im pushing it too hard or when its approaching the point that i cant go any louder, it has allowed me to adjust things with the knowledge that im doing it right during the gigs.


My Paradriver also compresses a bit, and while its not the same thing i do hear a bit of what i like. I do really like using the M87 for home recording though, thats where i feel it really makes a difference.

[51m0n]

Yeah. Its a point worth noting that that MXR comrpessor's lowest ratio of 4:1 is (IMO only) quite high for really transparent compression from a pedal.

I routinely run between 3 and 6dB of compression but at a ratio of less than 2:1, by setting a lower Threshold, I find this makes for a very nice balance of dynamics and a tad of always on compression keeping everything sounding really fab in the mix.

Not trying to reignite the GAS at all, but I've always thought of the MXR as a more effect type compressor (going from the specs, higher lowest ratio, super fast attack times) rather than an always on type of deal.