Peter Hook Masterclass

[Monckyman]

A few good posts here.
I'm biased, I grew up listening to Joy Division 24 hours a day, and it was hard in Manchester to get away from their influence for quite a while.
So, I'm very familiar with what Peter Hook achieved.
However, and without wishing to bang on about it, those whose definition of music seems to be about how technically proficient one might be and by what level of musical theory one might understand, have a very stunted and archaic understanding of musicality.
There is a lot of "feel" in JDs bass lines, there is a massive amount of harmonic and rhythmic interaction given the arrangements of the songs.
Somebody had to write those parts, somebody had to arrange them.
So,my definition of "musician" is probably derived more from Peter Hook than say Pastorious, or Wooten.(I have no recordings of either of those "master musicians". )
Peter Hook may claim he doesn't know where A is on a bass ,more fool you if you believe him.
That is all.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Monckyman

[Lord Sausage]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1358495640' post='1940090']
What a great argument between the "technicians" and the "musicians". Personally I find technical displays boring after about 10 seconds. Good music I'll listen to all day. I suspect that Hooky will be delivering some great anecdotes and some good "music".

note to self - must start new argument about the definition of music.
[/quote]
Why can't 'technicians' be 'musicians', it's a bullshit statement really. Does that mean all jazz players aren't musicians and it's not good 'music'. I can appreciate some players are just technique and nothing else but to separate them and say anyone with technique isn't a musician is just wrong. The two can co exist!

[paul torch]

Joy Division and New Order came about during and in the aftermath of UK Punk. Punk showed us all that you do not have to have any "official" musical training or qualification to create melodic, emotional music in a reaction against the pomposity of the prog rock that had preceded it. This cleared the way for new bands and musicians to feel confident about going out there and getting on with it.

BTW I'm not dissing prog, I'm a bit of a fan but artists like Peter Hook certainly inspired me more to go out, pick up an instrument, join a band and see what could be created.

More power to him, if I make it to the Bass Show this year his "masterclass" or whatever people want to call it will be the main draw.

Edited January 18, 2013 by paul torch

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='MoonBassAlpha' timestamp='1358500473' post='1940190']
Hooky is free to do his thing because the bulk of the "bassline" is sequenced. You could do the same thing on the bottom couple of strings on a guitar, but it wouldn't have anywhere near the same visual impact. That's the clever bit.
[/quote]

No you can't, I've heard people try, it sounds rubbish. The great thing about hooky's playing is precisely the squeezed and on the edge sound you get from playing a bass right up at the top of the neck, rather than just whacking it out on a guitar.
Same reason those high waily notes on guitars sound nicer.
Those saying Peter Hook is "not worthy" really need to redefine worthy.

[bremen]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1358469416' post='1940010']
[url="http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xlccjb_new-order-the-perfect-kiss_music#.UPiZUaFQT1o"]http://www.dailymoti...ic#.UPiZUaFQT1o[/url]
[/quote]

What's the link? My Nanny Firewall blocks it as 'pornography'

[bremen]

[quote name='Shambo' timestamp='1358497973' post='1940123']
Q. How many musicians does it take to change a lightbulb?

A. Ten. One to change the bulb and nine to stand around and mutter, "I could have done it better than that".
[/quote]

Q: What's the difference between a rock guitarist and a jazz guitarist?

A: A rock guitarist plays 3 chords to 20000 people...

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1358501839' post='1940223']
I can agree with that, but to dismiss players because they have technique is quite ignorant. Vai may have technique but his music is incredible not just for shredding. Great composition, melody, harmony and development. When i was younger in my teens, I was all about technique and difficult music but as i grew up i pretty much got into everything and enjoyed stuff on it's own merit. What i've found, in most cases, is snobbery from both ends. People with great technique and musicianship are snotty to music that's not. Conversely, those who don't go down that avenue are snotty to technical music as if it as no merit, when of course it does.
[/quote]

To dismiss [i]any[/i] player is ignorant as far as I'm concerned.I don't really like what Victor Wooten does and have no interest in the slappy-slappy thing but I watched some of his tutorial videos and picked up some cool tips on groove and time. People might not think Hook's music is worthy of a "masterclass" but to categorically state that he'll be unable to impart any musical wisdom to anyone is just arrogant twaddle as I said before.

Some of the most useful tips I've ever learned came from so-called "inferior" players and I've taught things to players much "better" than me. I've learned all sorts of things from all sorts of people, and the day I start thinking "this person can't teach me anything" before I've even heard what they have to say is the day I stop playing.

[molan]

[quote name='bremen' timestamp='1358508956' post='1940418']
What's the link? My Nanny Firewall blocks it as 'pornography'
[/quote]

Lol, it's simply the official video version of Perfect Kiss.

For some reason the original video seems to be locked by YouTube and shown as not available in the UK.

DailyMotion is a pretty big online video site (just like YT).

Maybe it's blocked because your firewall doesn't like the combination of 'online video' and 'kiss'

Maybe just try going to Daily Motion as a site & see if that works. If so you can search for New Order & Perfect & it should come up.

[bremen]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1358509570' post='1940444']


Maybe just try going to Daily Motion as a site & see if that works. If so you can search for New Order & Perfect & it should come up.
[/quote]

According to my f***ing annoying Nannywall, the whole site is pornography.

[molan]

[quote name='bremen' timestamp='1358510388' post='1940475']
According to my f***ing annoying Nannywall, the whole site is pornography.
[/quote]

Found it on YT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcjolqpKR4g

[Stag]

Would rather listen to what Hooky has to say and watch him just play a few basslines than watch a "masterclass" of fretw***ery

[bremen]

Molan: Thank you!

Edited January 18, 2013 by bremen

[molan]

[quote name='MoonBassAlpha' timestamp='1358500473' post='1940190']
I'm surprised no-one said "'ere, Barney, can you do the vocals again, they're a bit, er , flat"

Hooky is free to do his thing because the bulk of the "bassline" is sequenced. You could do the same thing on the bottom couple of strings on a guitar, but it wouldn't have anywhere near the same visual impact. That's the clever bit.
[/quote]

I think his vocals drifting are all part of the 'charm' of NO. I really like them on this song

There is a fair bit more going from Hooky on this song than just the high end core riff as well - although I do really like that riff & he looks great playing it, lol.

[Conan]

Personally I don't find him any more "limited" than, say, John Entwistle. They are very different players of course, and I like both of them.

I can't believe this has run to five pages! There really only seem to be three view points here:

1. Hooky is a crap bass player and should never be allowed to talk to others about his so-called "style"
2. Hooky is a crap bass player but has an interesting and iconic style that has a place in the pantheon of music. Listen to him!
3. Technique is a means to an end/an end in itself*

*Delete as appropriate.

[kerley]

4. Masterclass is a misnomer and just because you are a master doesn't mean you can, or should be, holding any sort of class.

[Lord Sausage]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1358509397' post='1940435']
To dismiss [i]any[/i] player is ignorant as far as I'm concerned.I don't really like what Victor Wooten does and have no interest in the slappy-slappy thing but I watched some of his tutorial videos and picked up some cool tips on groove and time. People might not think Hook's music is worthy of a "masterclass" but to categorically state that he'll be unable to impart any musical wisdom to anyone is just arrogant twaddle as I said before.

Some of the most useful tips I've ever learned came from so-called "inferior" players and I've taught things to players much "better" than me. I've learned all sorts of things from all sorts of people, and the day I start thinking "this person can't teach me anything" before I've even heard what they have to say is the day I stop playing.
[/quote]
Bang on the money! I remeber whilst at Uni i taught a lecturer some theory. He had a Phd in Music( Renaissance admittedly), and i was showing him some jazz theory. Conversely the person I've learnt the most off hardly knows any theory!

[Dingus]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1358435965' post='1939099']
I think the problem is the use of the word 'Masterclass'. Personally, I don't think that he's a 'master' of the instrument and I'd
expect some one leading a 'class' (which suggests educational)to at least know where an 'A' is on the bass (which he has
admitted that he doesn't).If it was advertised as a Q&A I don't think there would be a problem.
I'm not a fan of Hook at all and I really don't get Joy Division or New Order (except for 'World in Motion' obviously),but I get
that there are people who would like to hear his stories.I don't think he'd offer much in a 'masterclass' setting though.
[/quote]

I think Doddy has put it perfectly here .

Edited January 18, 2013 by Dingus

[Dingus]

[quote name='Pete Academy' timestamp='1358368335' post='1938056']
This post will no doubt piss people off, but I gather Peter Hook is doing a masterclass at the Bass Guitar Show. A masterclass? He seems a very average player who happened to be in A successful band.

Am I missing something?
[/quote]

No Pete , you are not missing something . Peter Hook is not a very accomplished bass player by any musical criteria . He is a bass guitar[i] personality [/i]far more than he is a bass guitar player . In most musical situations other than those he is immidiately familiar with he would be at a complete loss how to play the bass guitar , and I expect he would probably readily admit to that himself . He is only intrested in doing what he does , and what he does is very limited . If you're into that music then great , if not then I really can't see what he would have to offer , except maybe some business advice .

[bremen]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1358516887' post='1940643']
No Pete , you are not missing something . Peter Hook is not a very accomplished bass player by any musical criteria . He is a bass guitar[i] personality [/i]far more than he is a bass guitar player . In most musical situations other than those he is immidiately familiar with he would be at a complete loss how to play the bass guitar , and I expect he would probably readily admit to that himself . He is only intrested in doing what he does , and what he does is very limited . If you're into that music then great , if not then I really can't see what he would have to offer , except maybe some business advice .
[/quote]

Have you read much of this thread ?

[Dingus]

[quote name='bremen' timestamp='1358517104' post='1940647']
Have you read much of this thread ?
[/quote]

I've just read it all , and I am trying to be restrained in what I say to avoid controversy because I am too hung -over to argue today , but suffice to say I am not a fan of Joy Division , New Order et al or the culture that championed them , but that is neither here nor there in relation to this issue . None of that changes the simple fact that you can either[i] play [/i]the bass or you can't . The rest is sophistry . Those that criticise technique are almost invariably those who don't have much of it .

[Dingus]

[quote name='bremen' timestamp='1358517104' post='1940647']
Have you read much of this thread ?
[/quote]

I've just read this thread again . What do you think I'm missing . Have you read it ?

[bremen]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1358518175' post='1940667']
I've just read this thread again . What do you think I'm missing . Have you read it ?
[/quote]

Fair enough - just that many have made the point that although he might not be a master technician he is a great musician not least because of his influence; he's not just where he is because he was lucky enough to be in some influential bands or is an interesting personality (which he certainly is).

Not a great JD fan myself either, but can't deny his originality or influence.

Hope you survive the hangover - mixing it were you?

[Dingus]

[quote name='bremen' timestamp='1358519159' post='1940701']
Fair enough - just that many have made the point that although he might not be a master technician he is a great musician not least because of his influence; he's not just where he is because he was lucky enough to be in some influential bands or is an interesting personality (which he certainly is).

Not a great JD fan myself either, but can't deny his originality or influence.

Hope you survive the hangover - mixing it were you?
[/quote]

I was moderate , but a mixture of cold weather and hard work is wreaking havoc with my constitution !

That whole Joy Division / New Order thing is my era , but I didn't like it at the time and I still don't like it now . I can see how they bands were influential , but I think their influence is more cultural than musical . Regardless of any debate about the actual playing ability ( or lack thereof ) of the musicians , a legend has been built up around those bands that the music never really warranted any level .

[bremen]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1358519857' post='1940717']
. Regardless of any debate about the actual playing ability ( or lack thereof ) of the musicians , a legend has been built up around those bands that the music never really warranted any level .
[/quote]

It's all a matter of taste though, isn't it. Or as Lol Coxhill put it: beauty is in the ear of the beholder.

[Dingus]

[quote name='bremen' timestamp='1358520045' post='1940722']
It's all a matter of taste though, isn't it. Or as Lol Coxhill put it: beauty is in the ear of the beholder.
[/quote]

If people enjoy any kind of music then that's great as far as I am concerned and I am all in favour , , but if people are making judgements on the effiacy one music over another - as a lot of journalists cultural commentators and music fans who championed Joy Division and New Order and their ilk were at the time and still are - then they cannot really complain if people state a contrary view . It's all a matter of taste , but people will always discuss taste .

Edited January 18, 2013 by Dingus