Peter Hook Masterclass

[Doddy]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1358495640' post='1940090']
What a great argument between the "technicians" and the "musicians". Personally I find technical displays boring after about 10 seconds. Good music I'll listen to all day. I suspect that Hooky will be delivering some great anecdotes and some good "music"
[/quote]

This suggests that the people who are not in favour of Hook ( clearly,mainly me and Pete, in this thread) are more about technique than music...which
is clearly crap and has nothing to do with the discussion.I don't believe that anyone mentioned technique. As a bass player and musician,Hook does what
he does, and I don't think that
that is enough to hold a 'masterclass' at a bass show.I'm sure he has good stories about his bands and how they worked together though.
I find it interesting that in the threads about guys like Wooten, Marcus, Jaco etc. people are quick to shout words like 'w***ing', 'boring','souless' and 'muso'
(whatever that means), yet when someone says something negative about a popular band player they are dismissed as 'arrogant' and being more about technique
than music.

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1358519857' post='1940717']
That whole Joy Division / New Order thing is my era , but I didn't like it at the time and I still don't like it now . I can see how they bands were influential , but I think their influence is more cultural than musical .
[/quote]

Have you listened to any of the "indie" music that has come out in the last 20 or 30 years? Wouldn't have happened without Joy Division and Hooky's "awful" bass lines. Certainly wouldn't sound the same. Also, Goth. There would be no such thing without Joy Division.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it didn't influence a whole generation of musicians, and therefore music.

[Bassection]

I can't say I've ever heard him before, but I have to ask.. Does he actually play his bass at gigs?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8c83Oefwxc[/youtube]

It just seems like a prop at this one..

[oldslapper]

Depends on what you qualify as a "masterclass" surely?

If I wanted to know how to play a particular bass line, or study a particular technique, I'd save myself a shed load of money and go onto youtube and take my time watching the variety of technically proficient musicians demonstrating said techniques/tunes.
I might even invest a bit of money in lessons, 1:1 with a tutor and learn/study a technique, etc.

I'd want something different from a "masterclass" at a trade show.
It's an opportunity to ask said musician questions on different things like, how they achieve a particular tone, what studio equipment did they use on a particular track, what is the musical relationship like with the drummer for instance. Or how did they write a particular bass part and many more similar non technique questions.

Personally I'm not a fan of N.O. or that genre, but I think there's enough Hooky fans to warrant him giving a Masterclass.
Stop with the "only the pyrotechnically gifted are worthy" none sense, please!

[fumps]

So I'm not sure of the argument against Peter Hook (Son of Capt.. cousin to Dr) is doing a talk ?

If he gets asked to do a talk at a show & they call it a "master class" so what ? we all know what it is, personally there is more pressing subjects going on in life than moaning about what people call a open talk....Lecture, Master class or Bernard do we really care nowadays ?

Are we really that low on things to talk about on here ?

[Dingus]

[quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1358521881' post='1940776']
Have you listened to any of the "indie" music that has come out in the last 20 or 30 years? Wouldn't have happened without Joy Division and Hooky's "awful" bass lines. Certainly wouldn't sound the same. Also, Goth. There would be no such thing without Joy Division.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it didn't influence a whole generation of musicians, and therefore music.

[/quote]

I have spent the last 30 years immured in the music you describe , and I do not believe for one minute that this music wouldn't have existed without Joy Division . That is exactly that kind of empty and self - aggrandising propoganda surrounding these two bands that I am talking about . It's a completely false supposition . Joy Division may have inspired countless musicians as you say , but why would that in itself elevate the quality of their art ? The Spice Girls doubtless inspired many people ( mainly girls I expect ) to want to be in a girl group , but that in itself does not make what they created to have an intrinsic value . People can be inspired and influenced by all kinds of things , but that says more about the imagination of those who are inspired than it does about what inspires them . About the influence of Peter Hook , very few people play that way even in the indie genre . He has a unique and very limited style . Just for the record ,before anybody gets on my case , I never described Peter Hooks playing as "awful " -that's your words , not mine .

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1358519857' post='1940717']
I was moderate , but a mixture of cold weather and hard work is wreaking havoc with my constitution !

That whole Joy Division / New Order thing is my era , but I didn't like it at the time and I still don't like it now . I can see how they bands were influential , but I think their influence is more cultural than musical . Regardless of any debate about the actual playing ability ( or lack thereof ) of the musicians , a legend has been built up around those bands that the music never really warranted any level .
[/quote]

If you weren't into the music at the time, then it's not surprising that you unaware of just how influential Joy Division's music and Peter Hook's bass playing were. It was very much as much musical as it was cultural. The sheer number of records being released that featured bass parts that owed everything to Peter Hook's playing was staggering. If that doesn't count as influential then I don't know what does.

[Marvin]

[quote name='Bassection' timestamp='1358522170' post='1940786']
I can't say I've ever heard him before, but I have to ask.. [b]Does he actually play his bass at gigs?[/b]

It just seems like a prop at this one..
[/quote]

It'd be slightly off if he didn't, considering he's accused Tom Chapman who replaced him in New Order, of miming to tapes of his (Hook's) bass lines.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1358529811' post='1940997']
It'd be slightly off if he didn't, considering he's accused Tom Chapman who replaced him in New Order, of miming to tapes of his (Hook's) bass lines.
[/quote]
Didn't he have another bass player in Monaco,and only play himself when he wasn't singing?

[aende]

I don't think that many bass players would 'learn' anything from Peter Hook, I think that he is limited as a player - but his sound is what adds to Joy Division and New Order, I don't like his sound if I had to listen to it individually, but I am very cool with listening to the music as a whole.

However, he has created and played very successful music and his style has added the bottom and sometimes the top line and hook line to some fantastic tracks.

For me, that makes him more of a great arranger and collaborator that happened to get lumbered with bass playing.

Personality wise, He comes across as a bit of a nob and I am pretty sure he would feel the same of me, if we met, - but he is very successful and I am not, so who the f*ck am I to comment!!

[Dingus]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1358529730' post='1940995']
If you weren't into the music at the time, then it's not surprising that you unaware of just how influential Joy Division's music and Peter Hook's bass playing were. It was very much as much musical as it was cultural. The sheer number of records being released that featured bass parts that owed everything to Peter Hook's playing was staggering. If that doesn't count as influential then I don't know what does.
[/quote]

I wasn't enjoying a lot of that music , but I was/am certainly aware of it - I was surrounded by it !

So as not to dismiss this fellow out of hand , I've just been having a listen to some Joy .Division and New Order . If I were to find a generous way to describe his style in Joy Division it would be "naive " , and I mean that in the artistic sense rather than as any kind of a slight or a put -down . He is unashamedly without formal training or technique and has a childlike simplicity to his playing . No doubt to many that is his appeal and his greatest strength as a musician . As to others playing like him , do you not find it conceivable that , if Peter Hook had stumbled across that style of playing by default in rejecting formal conventions of how to learn to play the bass that others who similaly rejected traditional learning would end up sounding similar in certain respects ? Musicians with skill and knowledge are able to develop individual styles and techniques to express their personality and individuality . People who can't play mostly sound approximately the same .

Edited January 18, 2013 by Dingus

[visog]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1358533607' post='1941090']
People who can't play mostly sound approximately the same .
[/quote]

And Fodera-wielding MI graduates channeling Jeff Berlin approved chord-tones transcribed from 50-year old standards and Gary Willis' technique don't!

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Pete Academy' timestamp='1358368335' post='1938056']
This post will no doubt piss people off, but I gather Peter Hook is doing a masterclass at the Bass Guitar Show. A masterclass? He seems a very average player who happened to be in A successful band.

Am I missing something?
[/quote]

Perhaps it's a masterclass about how an average player can become a well known and successful player?

[Dingus]

[quote name='visog' timestamp='1358540464' post='1941255']
And Fodera-wielding MI graduates channeling Jeff Berlin approved chord-tones transcribed from 50-year old standards and Gary Willis' technique don't!
[/quote]

I don't know - I don't listen to them . But you are probably (almost certainly ) right on that point !

[Pete Academy]

He's not a master of his instrument. He might have some good stories to tell. That's not a masterclass.

[risingson]

[quote name='Pete Academy' timestamp='1358545906' post='1941351']
He's not a master of his instrument. He might have some good stories to tell. That's not a masterclass.
[/quote]

Case closed then.

[jude_b]

Isn't there something to be said about trade show talks involving a range of bassists passing on different types of experience? I'd quite like to see Victor Wooten dissecting his technique, but there's also value in hearing the experiences of a bass player who has formed and played in a a massive band and created music that means something to a lot of people.

For what it's worth, I think Peter Hook has a more distinctive voice than many more technically proficient bassists and, in any case, what he's done over his career as part of his group is more essential than how you might evaluate him as a bassist in isolation.

If I could go back to myself as a fifteen year old and had the choice of playing in a bands as big as Joy Division/New Order or having amazing chops, in all honesty I'd always probably go for the former. Isn't that what it was all about for most of us when we started?

[steve-soar]

He is Peter Hook, bass player in Joy Division and New Order. he didn't have to provide the "funk" for Jamanicried, or the metal for Daft Leotard, he played what he could and it just happened to turn on millions of other instrument owners to playing what they imagined in their own inner space.

[benebass]

Interesting thread. Big fan of Hooky & after reading his book on Joy Division I reckon he'll be having a chuckle at being asked to do a bass masterclass - he openly admits he's tone deaf & is known for hitting bum notes!



[size=4]Cheers,[/size]

[size=4]B.[/size]

[Dingus]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1358520548' post='1940739']
This suggests that the people who are not in favour of Hook ( clearly,mainly me and Pete, in this thread) are more about technique than music...which
is clearly crap and has nothing to do with the discussion.I don't believe that anyone mentioned technique. As a bass player and musician,Hook does what
he does, and I don't think that
that is enough to hold a 'masterclass' at a bass show.I'm sure he has good stories about his bands and how they worked together though.
I find it interesting that in the threads about guys like Wooten, Marcus, Jaco etc. people are quick to shout words like 'w***ing', 'boring','souless' and 'muso'
(whatever that means), yet when someone says something negative about a popular band player they are dismissed as 'arrogant' and being more about technique
than music.
[/quote]

Well said.

No one is suggesting Peter Hook isn't a worthwhile player within the context of his own chosen musical path - though his bands have certainly never been my cup of tea- but he himself would admit he has forged a career based round [i]how little[/i] he knows about playing the bass rather than how much . A lot of the discussion on this thread has mentioned technique , but to me that is a bit of a misnomer . I think what a lot of folks actually mean by that is [i]knowledge[/i] , namely of music and how it applies to playing the bass , and Peter Hook has a scant amount of that and has forged his style around that fact . Good for him - he seems happy enough with what he has achieved with his fantastic career and his own contribution to those bands . I'm not at all snooty about it - it takes all kinds to make a world , as the saying goes . The fact remains though , that all bass players tap into the same pool of knowledge when they play the bass whether they realise it or not - the same rules of music apply whether you know them or not - and it seems a bit ridiculous to me that some people automatically champion players who come across a G dominant 7 chord themselves by accident without knowing what it is over someone who was taught it , ascribing a unwarranted degree of creativity and spontaneity to those who are flailing around blindly . Proper technique is just the quickest and most efficient route to playing the bass effectively . Playing the bass requires knowledge and technique is the means by which you put that knowledge into practise . The rest is superfluous .

Edited January 19, 2013 by Dingus

[flyfisher]

[quote name='jude_b' timestamp='1358548026' post='1941382']

If I could go back to myself as a fifteen year old and had the choice of playing in a bands as big as Joy Division/New Order or having amazing chops, in all honesty I'd always probably go for the former. Isn't that what it was all about for most of us when we started?
[/quote]

I'd answer yes to that, which is why I play in bands rather than noodling in my bedroom, but there's room for all types of players . . . even ones without amazing chops, like me.

[BigRedX]

So let's turn this around.

Those of you who don't think that Peter Hook is worth of a "Masterclass" who would you rather have instead, what would you expect to get out of the class and why is it important?

[lowdown]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1358602897' post='1942000']
Well said.

No one is suggesting Peter Hook isn't a worthwhile player within the context of his own chosen musical path - though his bands have certainly never been my cup of tea- but he himself would admit he has forged a career based round [i]how little[/i] he knows about playing the bass rather than how much . A lot of the discussion on this thread has mentioned technique , but to me that is a bit of a misnomer . I think what a lot of folks actually mean by that is [i]knowledge[/i] , namely of music and how it applies to playing the bass , and Peter Hook has a scant amount of that and has forged his style around that fact . Good for him - he seems happy enough with what he has achieved with his fantastic career and his own contribution to those bands . I'm not at all snooty about it - it takes all kinds to make a world , as the saying goes . The fact remains though , that all bass players tap into the same pool of knowledge when they play the bass whether they realise it or not - the same rules of music apply whether you know them or not - and it seems a bit ridiculous to me that some people automatically champion players who come across a G dominant 7 chord themselves by accident without knowing what it is over someone who was taught it , ascribing a unwarranted degree of creativity and spontaneity to those who are flailing around blindly . Proper technique is just the quickest and most efficient route to playing the bass effectively . Playing the bass requires knowledge and technique is the means by which you put that knowledge into practise . The rest is superfluous .
[/quote]

After reading the whole thread, I kinda agree with most of that.
Never really listened or took much notice of the said bands and Hook, and still don't.
My main reason was not so much what Hook did, or did not, but the god awful singing in those bands.
Master classes all come in different, so if you were/are into Hook i should imagine you will enjoy it.

Off to see the Berlin Philharmoniker mid week - no doubt it will be stuffed to the brim with musical technicians
who can't play anything other than what's written on the chart.


Garry

[Dingus]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1358604258' post='1942051']
So let's turn this around.

Those of you who don't think that Peter Hook is worth of a "Masterclass" who would you rather have instead, what would you expect to get out of the class and why is it important?
[/quote]

Oh , that's a good question !

In my limited experience of these kind of things , I would say the problem is that the best players are not neccesarily the best teachers . Someone like Anthony Jackson is an undisputed master of the bass guitar , but he's so far ahead of everybody else that he wouldn't neccesarilly give most people much digestable information . If I had to give you some names off the top of my head I would say Pino Palladino , Mark Egan and David Hungate . Any of those three have a wealth of applied knowledge and experience to share , regardless of what style the audience members aspire to . I would want to glean something practical from any one of them to take away and apply to improve my own playing , but beyond that it would just be fascinating to hear them talk . It's worth mentioning though BRX , that whereas I was never a Joy Division / New Order fan and I have never enjoyed Peter Hooks style , I would much , much rather go see Peter Hook talk and play at one of these events than many of the people who do give seminars at these kind of things . I am sure that as a raconteur Hooky is a star performer , and he will offer a fascinating insight into playing bass with the bands he was in . My only reservation about Peter Hook in all of this is his ability to play the bass guitar to a masterful level . If I was going to this show I would be looking forward to seeing him talk , regardless .

[Bassmonkey]

I went to see Hooky in December. The band had both him and a second bass player. He does play his bass more like a lead than a trad bass so the sound worked really well. Have to say it was a bloomin fantastic show. Good voice, great songs and playing plus his inimitable style. In terms if master class, I'd defo love to see him. May not be to everyone's taste but hey, I don't especially dig Wootton. Different strokes etc....Andy