"Cutting Through The Mix"

[thumperbob 2002]

Its all in the Mids- bass should be clear and defined, hate a scooped sound, hate that superhi- tweeter tone- bass shouldnt be overpowering but powerful and fat- or phat! Should "fit it" to a mix. I play with a 7 piece with keys, brass, loud drummer and gitard. I have no problem fitting in- and can hear myself fine, either back or front of stage.

I use a Fender TV 15, only 350W through one 15" but with the tone at-

Bass 3- mids 10- treble 3 loads of power- never go above half on volume.

Typically 300W will do any gig as long as the low is not boosted too much.

[51m0n]

Depends what you want from the bas.

if anyone here wants people (ie punters) to be able to differentiate the notes they are playing (ie the pitches) in a live venue, then pay attention to the midrange of your bass. Its [i]all[/i] about Fletcher-Munsen curves (again - dreary isnt it). We hear best in the mid range of our hearing, we perceive pitches best in the midrange of our hearing, so if you roll off everything over 300Hz to get "that sound" then most punters wont be able to humm the bass line back at you, rhythmically yes, pitch wise, they wont hear what you want.

"Cutting through" is a term with some troubling connotations for a lot of bass players - to me it means making sure that tehr is enough mid range and enough low end, in balance, and with a hole somewhere for the meat of the guitar at the same time. At the same time the guitar has to make a whole fo rthe bass pitch info, you kind of get a 'ladder' of important frequencies between bass and guitar a bit like this:-

Bass - bass frequencies
Guitar - bass frequencies && Bass - mud frequencies
Bass - mid frequencies (pitch info)
Guitar - mid frequencies (pitch info)
Guitar - 'sizzle'

If you dont make a space for that bit that says Bass - mids (pitch info) in the guitar (in other words the bass 'cuts through' at that point) then the punters cant hear the bass as well. Similarly if you dont pull back a little in the Bass - 'mud' area there is no where for the Guitar bass frequencies to pop out and you tend to get that mud inducing war for control of the low mids. If you take too much away from the Bass here then it sounds weak and has no impact - hardest area to mix IMO...

Now one guitar on its own usually doesnt make too big an impact, but two guitars, or even guitar and keys with a heavy left hand can really take the shine out of your day unless everyone works together to make these spaces happen for each other, its about eq, and arrangement, and in a mix its about milliseconds of difference in attack time and so on. Lot sof tools/techiques are availabel to help a recording work in this way beyond eq that arent really available down the dog and duck unfortunately.

Edited January 21, 2013 by 51m0n

[KevB]

I've been listening to Yes 'Time & A Word' album in the car. That's a bass cutting through the mix that is...

[cheddatom]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1358776339' post='1944748']
[/size]
[size=4]Yep. [/size]Even one guitarist can be a problem if he (or she) is hogging the low end...
[/quote]

Absolutely, I've had this problem in the three peices I've played it, just 'cos the guitarist has a very bassy cab. When he turns the bass knob all the way off, it's a good mix, but that doesn't work psychologically... I mean, who wants to turn their bass knob all the way down?!

[Conan]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1358778964' post='1944811']
I'm struggling to find a connection between this vid and the thread mate, have I missed something?
[/quote]

I posted it in response to a comment from BRX relating to how if you can't hear yourself properly (i.e. "cut through the on-stage mix") then it can be difficult to know if you are playing in tune....

[xilddx]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1358782004' post='1944860']
I posted it in response to a comment from BRX relating to how if you can't hear yourself properly (i.e. "cut through the on-stage mix") then it can be difficult to know if you are playing in tune....
[/quote]
You know what, I thought Luke had posted it so I was replying to his comment. Ignore me mate

[jonsmith]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1358780641' post='1944838']
I've been listening to Yes 'Time & A Word' album in the car. That's a bass cutting through the mix that is...
[/quote]

Apparently some of that album was mixed on crappy headphones, where the engineer kept saying "turn the bass up, it needs more bass", thus contributing to what Chris Squire called his 'personal success'. Mind you, I think CS was always going to cut through the mix (and it's the right sound for Yes too).

[SteveK]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1358780641' post='1944838']
I've been listening to Yes 'Time & A Word' album in the car. That's a bass cutting through the mix that is...
[/quote]Absolutely! Those early Yes albums were a masterclass in arrangement and production.

[flyfisher]

Interesting comments, as usual for BC. Seems like the phrase can mean different things to different people, which might be why I've found it confusing.

Interesting point from 51m0n about how to improve things when mixing a recording. I've done this in my own clumsy way when trying to improve the overall sound of a recording and it's very interesting to use a spectrum analyser vst to see what each instrument is doing and how things can be eq'd to improve the overall mixed sound without significantly affecting the individual instrument sound - well, to my cloth ears anyway.

But it's one thing doing that in post production and quite another for an entire band to get it right in the heat of the gigging moment.

Bloody hell - this music thing doesn't seem to get any easier no matter how much I keep learning!

[thisnameistaken]

Usually when bassists have problems being heard it's because of a guitarist who doesn't know how to work an amp, but that doesn't stop people changing basses every few weeks...

[Marvin]

Unfortunately there are a plentiful supply of people in bands who don't have access to the combined knowledge on this site, so they merrily go on their way finding a sound they like in the comfort of their own home, mix it with the rest of the band...mush.

Main problem I've encountered is when a guitarist has too much low in their sound. It tends to leave nowhere to go. In the two (failed ) projects I worked with last year, I had the same 'sound' in both and it worked. Didn't really touch the bass eq, my combo has a semi-parametric mid eq thingy and I ramped that up max at around 450hz and didn't touch the treble. I could be heard, but I didn't 'cut through' in the sense that it sat uncomfortably in the mix.

Always seems that a lot of bands don't work on the overall eq mix, just volume.

[toneknob]

Here's an article Bryan Beller wrote for Bass Player magazine in August 2010. It's a bit metal-oriented, but contains good tips about what all the different frequencies in your sound are doing.

http://www.bassplayer.com/article/monitors-in-metal--cleaning-up-the-low-end/4996

[Dave Vader]

FWIW from the other end, as a guitar player, I have occasionally been stuck playing with bassists who want all the frequencies for themselves. Even my super tinny old Vox V-15 with a telecaster jammed on the bridge pickup needed to be cranked all the way up to "ear-bleeding death volume" to get round mr roundwound Ibanez Trace Elliot rig and his zingy massiveness.
Some of you probably know who this guy is, he is also one of my oldest and dearest friends, and has a killer tone. But you will not get over his bass with EQ alone.

[molan]

In my old 7 piece band I used to share one side of the stage with a keys player. He had an oldish keyboard amp with a 15" driver that often sat right next to my bass amp.

He played some nice low bass parts, especially on some funkier stuff with a clavinet setting.

He often overlapped into frequencies I was covering and the natural vibrato in the clav settings often used to make me think my bass was out of tune.

Because he'd spent a lot of time working out these parts we worked together privately on each song and discovered that on some numbers I could play higher up the neck (or simply leave the bass to him), on others he'd pull out and not play the lower parts and on a few we'd really tightly synchronise and play in unison for added punch.

Simply working together like this made loads of difference and we rarely had an issue again

[Marvin]

[quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1358787192' post='1944984']
FWIW from the other end, as a guitar player, I have occasionally been stuck playing with bassists who want all the frequencies for themselves. Even my super tinny old Vox V-15 with a telecaster jammed on the bridge pickup needed to be cranked all the way up to "ear-bleeding death volume" to get round mr roundwound Ibanez Trace Elliot rig and his zingy massiveness.
Some of you probably know who this guy is, he is also one of my oldest and dearest friends, and has a killer tone. But you will not get over his bass with EQ alone.

[/quote]

Has he got a blue/white 5 string Ibanez (a rather fetching paint job)? Does the gentleman in question sometimes don a rather fine goatee? Has he been known to play um...Maybe Naked...in the past?

[51m0n]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1358787423' post='1944989']
In my old 7 piece band I used to share one side of the stage with a keys player. He had an oldish keyboard amp with a 15" driver that often sat right next to my bass amp.
.....

Simply working together like this made loads of difference and we rarely had an issue again
[/quote]

Great post, nothing can beat a great arrangement...

[molan]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1358788301' post='1945010']
Great post, nothing can beat a great arrangement...
[/quote]

I have to admit that the start point was that I kept thinking I was out of tune all the time only to discover that it was the keyboard vibrato, lol.

[Myke]

I also was thought this saying was about the clarity of the notes. I remember when I went to see Motley Crue and I came away slightly dissappointed because all I heard was a mush of bass and no real notes. And yes I know, Motley isn't always about the playing but more the stage show but Nikki Sixx does do some nice things which I couldn't hear.

[gub]

Or is it more to do with not really hearing yourself clearly on stage ? Bass travels a long way and it could be everyone out front can hear you fine , think I suffer with this problem sometimes !

[Lamont]

From my understanding 'cutting through the mix' relates to perception that a bass that sounds nice and loud (and clear!) on it's own, can completely disappear when you add a band into the room. If I'm right I think this is normally due to problem frequencies at around 400-600Hz. Most band members have a presence in this region (guitars, snare/toms, vocals etc.) and in a room these soundwaves will naturally interact with one another. 99% of the time, physics is cruel and these signals will be 'out of phase' with one another, effectively cancelling them out. If you have this problem scoop your EQ a little (just 3dB may be enough) and you'll often find you can 'hear' yourself again.

The other option is play nice and quietly, with everyones amps arranged sensibly so they don't interfere with one another & most players can monitor themselves quite happily

N.B. this might be complete bollocks if it is, sorry!

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1358787481' post='1944991']
Has he got a blue/white 5 string Ibanez (a rather fetching paint job)? Does the gentleman in question sometimes don a rather fine goatee? Has he been known to play um...Maybe Naked...in the past?
[/quote]

Erm... maybe?
In fact yes, and I know Mo would probably never come on here, as he pissed himself laughing when i told him of it's existence a few years ago.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1358770780' post='1944600']
I've read this phrase here a lot and have often wondered what it really means.
[/quote]

It means "I dont want a sound that is pleasant to listen to and which blends in with the band, rather I want a sound that is like a sonic poke in the eye with a pencil - it may be horrible but at least people can hear it".

Edited January 21, 2013 by bassman7755

[lurksalot]

this is soooooooooooo subjective , as appears from the responses.
I want to understand this stuff aswell , and while I may have no chance , the process of learning it is proving very interesting and a great source of learning can be had [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/192016-mixing-competitionlearning-resource-january-poll-added/"]not too far away [/url], personally, I think training the way you listen is a massive step towards knowing what you hear .

[tauzero]

[quote name='gub' timestamp='1358794762' post='1945191']
Or is it more to do with not really hearing yourself clearly on stage ? Bass travels a long way and it could be everyone out front can hear you fine , think I suffer with this problem sometimes !
[/quote]

I took a wireless to my last gig and wandered out front when sound checking. On stage, it seemed there was a huge amount of bass but once out front, it was just mids. Next time, I'll take the Gramma pad (forgot it this time) and see if that helps by getting rid of the stage boom so I can boost the bass a bit.

[51m0n]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1358807784' post='1945563']
It means "I dont want a sound that is pleasant to listen to and which blends in with the band, rather I want a sound that is like a sonic poke in the eye with a pencil - it may be horrible but at least people can hear it".
[/quote]

Completely disagree with this....