"Cutting Through The Mix"

[51m0n]

[quote name='Lamont' timestamp='1358796518' post='1945246']
From my understanding 'cutting through the mix' relates to perception that a bass that sounds nice and loud (and clear!) on it's own, can completely disappear when you add a band into the room. If I'm right I think this is normally due to problem frequencies at around 400-600Hz. Most band members have a presence in this region (guitars, snare/toms, vocals etc.) and in a room these soundwaves will naturally interact with one another. 99% of the time, physics is cruel and these signals will be 'out of phase' with one another, effectively cancelling them out. If you have this problem scoop your EQ a little (just 3dB may be enough) and you'll often find you can 'hear' yourself again.

The other option is play nice and quietly, with everyones amps arranged sensibly so they don't interfere with one another & most players can monitor themselves quite happily

N.B. this might be complete bollocks if it is, sorry!
[/quote]

This is an oversimplification.

It could be any or all frequencies turning to mush. that depends on the sounds in the band and very much on the acoustics in the room. You cannot narrow it down to 400-600Hz. Also cutting there on bass could be exactly the wrong place fo rthat bass and player's sound, you have to think of all the sounds in the band, if the kick is really deep then the bass doesnt want to be so deep, if the guitar is middly the bass can sit under it etc etc.

The art (as a band live, or with the sound engineer) is to carve out the crud from each sound that competes with a part of another instruments sound that is 'signature' to that instrument in the mix. Good arrangement is the icing on the cake.

Cutting through is such an aggressive way of putting it, its also known as frequency mixing. The more instruments in the mix the more careful you have to be to make space for them all. What the musicians hear on stage is one mix, by being closer to their respective monitors/amps they get a mix that favours them rather than the rest of the band for themselves to listen to. It is perfectly possible to create a mix that works in the context of the band on stage and in FOH, again the more the band accepts they need to work together to creat the sound of the band as a whole, the better the sound on stage and off will be..

This is personal opinion, there may really be some people who use extreme eq/compression/overdrive (who knows what else) to try and force their way to the front of a mix, but if its detrimental to the overall sound then it would seem to be damn stupid behaviour?

[oggiesnr]

Some of the worst gigs I have heard have been where every "musician" was determined to "cut through the mix". They seemed to have forgotten it was a band and it had become a competition as to whom could be heard. So gigs where all that could be heard were drums and bass, gigs of screaming guitars and gigs so loud that ear plugs were needed and the vocals were filled in from memory as they were inaudible. These were not pub gigs but full on "professional" groups some of whom had been gigging for years (or decades).

First and foremost, for me, it's a group, every instrument has a contribution to make and the trick is to work together to make that happen, once everyone wants to "cut through the mix" it ceases to be a group and becomes a mess.

Steve

PS I've got me coat.

[51m0n]

I dont think that is a case of everyone wanting to cut through, its a case of everyone wwanting only to hear themselves, at the expense of everything else.

Cutting through suggests an incision to me, I like the idea of keyhole surgery, thats where it works best, rather thanout and out butchery.

[Conan]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1358845841' post='1945811']Cutting through suggests an incision to me, I like the idea of keyhole surgery, thats where it works best, rather than out and out butchery.[/quote]

Quote of the year!!

[steve-bbb]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1358770780' post='1944600']
I'd have thought that bassists should have an advantage when it comes to being heard because they've almost got their very own sonic space to work within. Yes, a kick drum will overlap our main frequency region, but singers won't and nor will guitarists usually.

[/quote]

except when you have a keyboard player who insists on doubling the bass line

[51m0n]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1358770780' post='1944600']
Even more simplistically, I'd have thought that bassists should have an advantage when it comes to being heard because they've almost got their very own sonic space to work within. Yes, a kick drum will overlap our main frequency region, but singers won't and nor will guitarists usually.
[/quote]

If you concede that you need some mids (something somewhere between 200 and 800Hz lets say) to convey pitch and transient attack then the following instruments could easily be in your way:-

Floor tom
Low tom
Kick drum
Snare body
Baritone male vox (go down to 80Hz fo rthe really deep chaps)
Rhythm guitar
Lead Guitar
Hammond
Clavichord
Piano
Strings
Congas
Djembe
Didge
Female contralto (seriously!)
Baritone Sax
Tenor Sax (in a section especially!)
Tuba

But the main contenders are the bottom of the guitar, lower toms, kick, snare (esp a big rock snare), and lower octaves of the keyboard, and the deeper horns depending on the arrangement obviously.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1358847665' post='1945838']
If you concede that you need some mids (something somewhere between 200 and 800Hz lets say) to convey pitch and transient attack then the following instruments could easily be in your way:-

Floor tom
Low tom
Kick drum
Snare body
Baritone male vox (go down to 80Hz fo rthe really deep chaps)
Rhythm guitar
Lead Guitar
Hammond
Clavichord
Piano
Strings
Congas
Djembe
Didge
Female contralto (seriously!)
Baritone Sax
Tenor Sax (in a section especially!)
Tuba
[/quote]

Not in my bands.

Seriously though, yeah fair point, and it makes me wonder how those big live shows with loads of musicians can get such a good sound.

For example, Concert For George had loads of players towards the end of the concert yet the sound is not at all muddy. Perhaps they don't actually include all the players in the final mix?

[51m0n]

No, they are there, it sounds good because of well crafted arrangements and good FOH mixing. Simple as that.

Have another listen to the Kit Richardson EP (see sig), in particular listen to Russian Dolls, there are strings (quite a lot of strings tracks, at least 4, maybe 8 cant remember for sure now), guitar, piano (2 tracks of piano I think), lead vocal, bass synth, and more than 50 backing vocal tracks, you are hearing everything mixed, if I took anything away it would sound different (more or less subtly but it would be different), yet it isnt cluttered, even with 50+ Kits singing together they arent building up mud or cluttered in any way, and that is because of the eq-ing techniques (and the compression/limiting used too). The whole EP hasthat kind of sound, lots and lots going on.

The same principles are used in a big live show, you just have less time to build the mix.

[LITTLEWING]

The trouble with pubs/clubs is that they're all different sizes, stages/playing areas etc. added to the fact of people coming, going, a bunch that gets up and goes out for a cigarette, all changing the overall sound all the time. The mix you start with when you set up early evening will be totally different by 10 o/c. The best thing we do as a three piece is for me to set a comfy clean level with the drums then bring up the guitar to a sensible listening level along with the vocals. A bit of fine tweaking for 5 mins with bass mids and cutting bass off the guitar is the best you're going to get unless you're mic'd up to a decent engineer. A quick stroll left to right with a long lead as a final sound check and we've never had any complaints yet. In fact we get a lot of punters saying how good we sounded and not blasting the windows out like the last night's band.

[51m0n]

Keeping a lid on the overall volume is an absolute must, I agree, I have left pubs when the band has started up becaus ethey are too loud. Its not big, nor clever to hurt your audience....

[oggiesnr]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1358932867' post='1947128']
Keeping a lid on the overall volume is an absolute must, I agree, I have left pubs when the band has started up becaus ethey are too loud. Its not big, nor clever to hurt your audience....
[/quote]

I've left large gigs that cost me money for the same reason.

Steve

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1358855041' post='1945965']
Perhaps they don't actually include all the players in the final mix?
[/quote]

I have the DVD of Roy Orbison's "Black & White Night" with an all-star line-up of guests. He has the thick end of 20 musicians on stage including himself, Bruce Springsteen, Elvis Costello and at least two others just on guitars!

It's fairly clear from the sound that some guitars are ... erm ... more equal than others.

[shizznit]

I take a very simple approach to this. I leave my amp pretty much flat and I just adjust the centre mid frequency until the notes are punchy and balanced across the fingerboard. Works for me every time. I don't play with a deep and throaty tone anyway, but as soon as you hear the low frequencies flooding the rest of the band it really spoils it for me as a player and as a listener. If my backline is not going through the PA I always think about the person at the back of the venue rather than the person in front of the stage and I shape my backline tone with that in mind. Our male vocalist leaves the stage a couple of times during our set and checks the overall balance of the band and he has a good ear for balance. If he says that my tone is too muddy or too sparkly I will adjust it even though it might sound a bit weird behind me. It doesn't stop me from getting on with my job and I take any sacrifice of my own tonal enjoyment to ensure that I sound good in the venue. Can't be afford to be selfish in this game.

We play more often these days without the band being full mic'd up through FOH, so I don't tend to turn my backline volume beyond the acoustic level of the kick drum. That's when the arguments begin on stage! If I am too low for the rest of the guys that usually means that 'they' are too loud. But, if we are acoustically balanced on stage then we tend to find the punters enjoy the performance more. If you are not going through a PA and push your amps up to the same volume expectations it is very hard to balance the band individually. I view amps as personal monitors on stage...nothing else. They cannot do the same job as a PA...amps are not designed that way. I know a lot of us don't have the pleasure of putting the band through a PA, but you have to live by your limitations. Okay, everyone love to crank it up and pin the punters to the wall, but you will be surprised how much they don't really enjoy waking up the next day with their ears ringing and sore throats because their mates couldn't hear them spilling latest Facebook gossip.

[mcnach]

[quote name='shizznit' timestamp='1358944892' post='1947367']
I take a very simple approach to this. I leave my amp pretty much flat and I just adjust the centre mid frequency until the notes are punchy and balanced across the fingerboard. Works for me every time. I don't play with a deep and throaty tone anyway, but as soon as you hear the low frequencies flooding the rest of the band it really spoils it for me as a player and as a listener. If my backline is not going through the PA I always think about the person at the back of the venue rather than the person in front of the stage and I shape my backline tone with that in mind. Our male vocalist leaves the stage a couple of times during our set and checks the overall balance of the band and he has a good ear for balance. If he says that my tone is too muddy or too sparkly I will adjust it even though it might sound a bit weird behind me. It doesn't stop me from getting on with my job and I take any sacrifice of my own tonal enjoyment to ensure that I sound good in the venue. Can't be afford to be selfish in this game.

We play more often these days without the band being full mic'd up through FOH, so I don't tend to turn my backline volume beyond the acoustic level of the kick drum. That's when the arguments begin on stage! If I am too low for the rest of the guys that usually means that 'they' are too loud. But, if we are acoustically balanced on stage then we tend to find the punters enjoy the performance more. If you are not going through a PA and push your amps up to the same volume expectations it is very hard to balance the band individually. I view amps as personal monitors on stage...nothing else. They cannot do the same job as a PA...amps are not designed that way. I know a lot of us don't have the pleasure of putting the band through a PA, but you have to live by your limitations. Okay, everyone love to crank it up and pin the punters to the wall, but you will be surprised how much they don't really enjoy waking up the next day with their ears ringing and sore throats because their mates couldn't hear them spilling latest Facebook gossip.
[/quote]


can I join your band???

I wish I could be a volume dictator. I love my band(s) but... I wish we played more quietly.

[PaulWarning]

trouble with a full PA is you're relying on the sound man, and anybody that's tried to make out the bass line from a record knows not everybody likes to hear the bass, you can set the amp up as much as you want doesn't effect what's happening foh, really pisses me off, the other week I was watching a band at a venue we play at and asked the soundman if my bass cut through more than this one, he said "Don't you think it's loud enough?" he turned it up in the second half, sounded loads better