Bilbo Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 The Art of Composition Like many of us, I have taken part in the monthly composition competition under the ‘Recording’ forum and enjoyed the various approaches we all have to the problem of composing to images. I have learned and continue to learn a lot in the process. One of the things that I find frustrating about a lot of the entries (including and especially my own) is the over reliance on riffs and repetition, two chord vamps (usually a whole tone apart) or ‘classic’ forms such as blues etc. We all seem able to work quite effectively with these ‘simple’ structures. Personally, I am frustrated by my own inability to integrate complex structures like sophisticated chord sequences or interesting rhythmic ideas into my composing. I keep trying but I can’t seem to break out of simple little boxes. I wonder how many of us [i]choose[/i] to use these simple ideas and how many of us do so because we can’t find ways to move away from them? I consider myself to be the latter. I also wonder how much of it is less about what we can compose as it is about what we can actually [i]play[/i]. Most of us are playing all of the instruments on each recording so are confined by our ability to play second and third instruments, to sing in tune or to the availability of decent midi kit. I can’t complain in that are as any shortcomings in my recording is about my limited experience in the studio and with midi in particular but, as I said, are we frustrated because we need to get things played by proper players instead of by ham-fisted bass players like me. I can play ‘Lush Life’ and get around similar mad chord sequences (except Giant Steps) but I do struggle to create anything that is as deep or as beautiful as the stuff I love to listen to. I guess it is a case of valuing what we can and do create rather than regretting what we can’t but I would love to get into composing more sophisticated material. What does everyone else think about the Art of Composing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 For me the challenge is what intruments I can play and what I can't, this is also why I havn't been entering all that much.. I reach a stumbling block in what the song "needs" and can't fulfill it. For this same reason I'm now trying to actually incorporate the basic playing wherever I can or to alter the song to suit my strengths. However, I tend to write quite a lot by "theory" rather than by ear once I have a riff. I'll sit writing in notes in tuxguitar or reason without even having an instrument in my hand sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted January 22, 2013 Author Share Posted January 22, 2013 I too have started writing with Sibelius and letting my ears lead me rather than my 'intellect'. It has resulted in interesting melodies and bass lines but the harmony is weak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gray Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 For my part I would consider that the ability to write a simple, but effective idea (by which I mean bares repetition, grabs attention, directs listener to a central theme, allows one to build on arrangement etc) is at least as worthy of description as 'art' as a more technically demanding, and perhaps extended idea. Certainly I find that I struggle more to write an effective cycling riff or motif than an themically developing progression. I consider one of the core 'arts' of composition to be the linking & layering of many simple ideas to develop into something which (hopefully) becomes more than the sum of its parts. The idea of 'micro' cells (or Bilbos little boxes) building into a pleasing whole (a nice shiny big box ?) is surely where the art lies ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 I think you have to hear it in your head Bilbo. But play a lovely chord and see what your head hears as coming next. Do you get a little fizz in your stomach? That's when you know you heart agrees with your head. Keep doing that and before you know it you have a emotional journey that will lead you to cadences and structures that maybe you couldn't have imagined in their entirety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 I play funk - what is this "chord sequence" of which you speak??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 When I write stuff it tends to go wherever it wants to, if I try and pull it into a more interesting direction it will inevitably snap back. Or equally, if it wants to be insanely complicated it goes that way even when I try and slap it down. What comes from my head comes from my head, though I do like to start with simple stuff like the 2 chord vamp, and add more and more intricate layers over the top until you barely notice it is there. Attempting to force unnecessarily complex structures is madness, that way lies Jazz..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Compositions should come from your head, not your fingers, or what you believe music theory is telling you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelk27 Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 I'd have said heart, not head, and certainly not from what you've read in a book. Composing by numbers takes you nowhere, but it's a good remedy for insomnia. You write what you feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashsagar Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 [quote name='noelk27' timestamp='1358868532' post='1946297'] I'd have said heart, not head, and certainly not from what you've read in a book. Composing by numbers takes you nowhere, but it's a good remedy for insomnia. You write what you feel. [/quote] You speak of composition by numbers taking you nowhere. I disagree. It took me here [url="https://soundcloud.com/section_9/addition101"]https://soundcloud.com/section_9/addition101[/url] This is one of my compositions based on very simple mathematics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted January 22, 2013 Author Share Posted January 22, 2013 I propose that composition is a mixture of heart AND head. The ideas germinate emotionally but the process of development is partly inspiration and partly good old-fashioned graft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 True, otherwise all my compositions would be me humming a jaunty tune, with perhaps some chords underneath, strummed on an autoharp. As that is what the heart wants.... The head knows I am clearly a sap.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 [quote name='noelk27' timestamp='1358868532' post='1946297'] I'd have said heart, not head, and certainly not from what you've read in a book. Composing by numbers takes you nowhere, but it's a good remedy for insomnia. You write what you feel. [/quote] My heart is for pumping blood around my body. It has no part in the process of composing music. I normally hear pretty much the whole musical arrangement as a finished piece in my head. I then have to work out what the arrangement is and how to play it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Sausage Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 (edited) [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1358867314' post='1946271'] Compositions should come from your head, not your fingers, or what you believe music theory is telling you. [/quote] [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1358871537' post='1946339'] I propose that composition is a mixture of heart AND head. The ideas germinate emotionally but the process of development is partly inspiration and partly good old-fashioned graft. [/quote] Compositions should be a mix of all your musical personality. Your feel, inspiration mixed with your knowledge of the language of music. You can express yourself better the more you know verbally and it's the same with music. I love composing and i don't feel trapped by two chords or by complexity. Stravinsky, after being criticised by Schonberg (serialist composer) said something along the lines of ' Why should I be trapped by 13 notes when i have the freedom of seven'. I've done lots of different styles thru college, uni and after from Rock songs to Jazz big band to Glassian Minimalism to jazz fusion to Prog. It just depends where your voice and head is. The only restriction i feel is in the recording. I could write a full big band piece, chords, melody, counter-melody and score it for all instruments at a piano but never get it recorded unless i used midi and it would just sound sh*t. So i tend to just compose now within what i can record at home. But i'm definitely not restricted by musical language and ideas. Edited January 22, 2013 by Lord Sausage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Sausage Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1358872778' post='1946360'] My heart is for pumping blood around my body. It has no part in the process of composing music. I normally hear pretty much the whole musical arrangement as a finished piece in my head. I then have to work out what the arrangement is and how to play it. [/quote] So that's what it does! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 (edited) [quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1358874121' post='1946388'] I could write a full big band piece, chords, melody, counter-melody and score it for all instruments at a piano but never get it recorded unless i used midi and it would just sound sh*t. [/quote] The Jazz/Big Band sample/patch Libraries are getting better. But you are right, they are hard work and an awful lot of MIDI programming is needed. One of the best at the moment is Fable Sounds. [i]Fable sounds demo from their site.[/i] [media]http://fablesounds.com/bbb/audiodemos/AmitPoznansky_OnTheMove.mp3[/media] Product [url="http://fablesounds.com/BBB-Menu-frame.htm"]http://fablesounds.c...-Menu-frame.htm[/url] With composing these days, the only limit is your self. As Bilbo said above, good old fashioned hard work goes a long way. [quote name='noelk27' timestamp='1358868532' post='1946297'] I'd have said heart, not head, and certainly not from what you've read in a book. Composing by numbers takes you nowhere, but it's a good remedy for insomnia. You write what you feel. [/quote] Surely a great deal of knowledge can be gained from 'Books' ? - Melody/Harmoney/Counter part, how the great classical composers went about it. Rimsky Korsakov's principle of Orchestration is still much used today. [b]Free On-line Study here[/b], well worth a look. [url="http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/77-Principles-of-Orchestration-On-line"]http://www.northerns...tration-On-line[/url] Garry Edited January 22, 2013 by lowdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oggiesnr Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 My music is limited by the fact that I'm only slowly acquiring the technical skills needed to write down more than one part. I can "noodle" a theme on half a dozen instruments, I can slowly transcribe the best of that to paper. At that point the fun starts, a firm grasp of theory is a very useful attribute to have and I don't yet have it so it becomes a lot of trial and error and wincing at the dischords to get something that's halfway passable. I also tend to write within my playing capabilities so on double bass that's about grade 4 so it tends to come out on the simple side. On the plus side, it's fun and (I think) I'm getting better with each new piece. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1358871537' post='1946339'] I propose that composition is a mixture of heart AND head. The ideas germinate emotionally but the process of development is partly inspiration and partly good old-fashioned graft. [/quote] Intresting short read here Rob. http://www.scorecastonline.com/2013/01/14/forget-tech-its-about-the-notes/ Garry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Sausage Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 [quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1358877469' post='1946451'] Surely a great deal of knowledge can be gained from 'Books' ? - Melody/Harmoney/Counter part, how the great classical composers went about it. Rimsky Korsakov's principle of Orchestration is still much used today. [b]Free On-line Study here[/b], well worth a look. [url="http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/77-Principles-of-Orchestration-On-line"]http://www.northerns...tration-On-line[/url] Garry [/quote] He's kind of the daddy of orchestration took it nearly to it's limit. He taught Stravinsky Composition and Orchestration. Stravinsky probably surpassed him but only just and he was massively influenced by him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Beethoven's 5th took 4 years to get down... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1358881046' post='1946535'] Beethoven's 5th took 4 years to get down... [/quote] It tells Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 If anyone is interested in some free detailed on line studing regarding Orchestrating and Arranging, two useful sites here. Classical http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/77-Principles-of-Orchestration-On-line Big Band and Jazz http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/107-Jazz-Arranging-Online-by-Prof-Chuck-Israels Garry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 [quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1358893855' post='1946881'] [size=4]Anyone think Bach became a great composer - who gave millions the musical experiences of their lives - by being detached from "Heart" or detached from "Head"?[/size] best, bert [/quote] I think that's why most of us seem to be saying it's both. As I can't imagine Bach putting all of that together without a great deal of head (chuckles) and equally you don't write themes that heart-stoppingly beautiful without feeling every tiny note of it with your heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoombung Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1358860922' post='1946124'] The Art of Composition Like many of us, I have taken part in the monthly composition competition under the ‘Recording’ forum and enjoyed the various approaches we all have to the problem of composing to images. I have learned and continue to learn a lot in the process. One of the things that I find frustrating about a lot of the entries (including and especially my own) is the over reliance on riffs and repetition, two chord vamps (usually a whole tone apart) or ‘classic’ forms such as blues etc. We all seem able to work quite effectively with these ‘simple’ structures. Personally, I am frustrated by my own inability to integrate complex structures like sophisticated chord sequences or interesting rhythmic ideas into my composing. I keep trying but I can’t seem to break out of simple little boxes. I wonder how many of us [i]choose[/i] to use these simple ideas and how many of us do so because we can’t find ways to move away from them? I consider myself to be the latter. I also wonder how much of it is less about what we can compose as it is about what we can actually [i]play[/i]. Most of us are playing all of the instruments on each recording so are confined by our ability to play second and third instruments, to sing in tune or to the availability of decent midi kit. I can’t complain in that are as any shortcomings in my recording is about my limited experience in the studio and with midi in particular but, as I said, are we frustrated because we need to get things played by proper players instead of by ham-fisted bass players like me. I can play ‘Lush Life’ and get around similar mad chord sequences (except Giant Steps) but I do struggle to create anything that is as deep or as beautiful as the stuff I love to listen to. I guess it is a case of valuing what we can and do create rather than regretting what we can’t but I would love to get into composing more sophisticated material. What does everyone else think about the Art of Composing? [/quote] If you're interested in developing more sophisticated chord changes I would recommend the following exercise: write three separate melodies - leave them without chords at first. Arrange them on the computer and have a think about the order. Leave it for a day then come back to the material and start fitting chords to the melodies. Do this three times - with different chords so you three different versions. Do this on separate days. Go back and spend several hours listening to what you've produced. You will often find that poor or uninteresting harmoniy choices immediately stimulate and prompt better choices on the first listening back. Finally spend time editing it together and don't worry about whether you can play it or not because you can spend timing learning it later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassTractor Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 [quote name='Spoombung' timestamp='1358935414' post='1947169'] If you're interested in developing more sophisticated chord changes I would recommend the following exercise: write three separate melodies - leave them without chords at first. Arrange them on the computer and have a think about the order. Leave it for a day then come back to the material and start fitting chords to the melodies. Do this three times - with different chords so you three different versions. Do this on separate days. Go back and spend several hours listening to what you've produced. You will often find that poor or uninteresting harmoniy choices immediately stimulate and prompt better choices on the first listening back. Finally spend time editing it together and don't worry about whether you can play it or not because you can spend timing learning it later. [/quote] Mighty cool! I specially like the important "separate days" part. I'll send my Seal Of Approval through snail mail, as I can't stick it on the thread from here. best, bert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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