mcgraham Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 OK? so how is what I've said incorrect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldG Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Wouldn't have thought I'd need to simplify that - but here goes... The OP found that his voice wasn't what he expected to hear when amplified,even though he was happy to sing generally. This indicates to me the 'sound source' is 'sound' - but the mic/amplification wasn't set up for him. Combine this with little or no experience of using a mic/PA - and you get the same result as the OP described. I've seen it happen a few times myself.... A bit like learning on an acoustic guitar and then trying out on a Strat through a Marshall stack for the first time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 [quote name='OldG' timestamp='1359016007' post='1948409'] Wouldn't have thought I'd need to simplify that - but here goes... The OP found that his voice wasn't what he expected to hear when amplified,even though he was happy to sing generally. This indicates to me the 'sound source' is 'sound' - but the mic/amplification wasn't set up for him. Combine this with little or no experience of using a mic/PA - and you get the same result as the OP described. I've seen it happen a few times myself.... A bit like learning on an acoustic guitar and then trying out on a Strat through a Marshall stack for the first time. [/quote] I think the OP was suffering more from "voice inside the head" syndrome. Basically not sounding the same outside their head as they did inside their own head. No amount of fancy Microphones or PA will resolve this as it requires training (which the OP already has said). Unfortunately for some of us microphones only amplify what is put in (and put a "generally" minor EQ on the voice as part of the process) so it is somewhat different to your guitar analogy I'm afraid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Lord Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 One of these: [url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/boss_ve20_vocal_performer.htm"]http://www.thomann.de/gb/boss_ve20_vocal_performer.htm[/url] ... and you'll sound like Adele. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 [quote name='OldG' timestamp='1359016007' post='1948409'] Wouldn't have thought I'd need to simplify that - but here goes... The OP found that his voice wasn't what he expected to hear when amplified,even though he was happy to sing generally. This indicates to me the 'sound source' is 'sound' - but the mic/amplification wasn't set up for him. Combine this with little or no experience of using a mic/PA - and you get the same result as the OP described. I've seen it happen a few times myself.... A bit like learning on an acoustic guitar and then trying out on a Strat through a Marshall stack for the first time. [/quote] mmm... sound source can be sound, and the singer can be happy singing along, but that doesn't mean the tonal quality is in any way good. If you sound good, it doesn't matter what mic you use the quality in the voice will be self-evident. If you don't sound good, no amount of mic technique or flattering mic is going to fix the underlying issue. [quote name='charic' timestamp='1359017272' post='1948415'] I think the OP was suffering more from "voice inside the head" syndrome. Basically not sounding the same outside their head as they did inside their own head. No amount of fancy Microphones or PA will resolve this as it requires training (which the OP already has said). Unfortunately for some of us microphones only amplify what is put in (and put a "generally" minor EQ on the voice as part of the process) so it is somewhat different to your guitar analogy I'm afraid. [/quote] +1. We often think we sound fine/awful, but in reality we are each incapable of getting a true representation of what we sound like from inside our own bodies. This is because we hear more internal resonance, experience resonance shifts that others do not, and hear things sooner than the rest of the world listening, but we also hear less of what we sound like as a complete package or inside a given space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
essexbasscat Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 [quote name='mcgraham' timestamp='1359020271' post='1948458'] mmm... sound source can be sound, and the singer can be happy singing along, but that doesn't mean the tonal quality is in any way good. If you sound good, it doesn't matter what mic you use the quality in the voice will be self-evident. If you don't sound good, no amount of mic technique or flattering mic is going to fix the underlying issue. +1. We often think we sound fine/awful, but in reality we are each incapable of getting a true representation of what we sound like from inside our own bodies. This is because we hear more internal resonance, experience resonance shifts that others do not, and hear things sooner than the rest of the world listening, but we also hear less of what we sound like as a complete package or inside a given space. [/quote] This sounds like wisdom gained from experience of vocal teaching. Is there a resource of this kind of knowledge that we can all access ? Hopefully some good tips would be there as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacqueslemac Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 I used to carry out media training. I never met single person who didn't listen to the playback of an interview without complaining that they hated the sound of their voice, as it didn't sound anything like they heard in their own head. Off topic slightly, but most people don't like photos of themselves either. For an experiment my dad once developed some photos by turning the negative over. The print was effectively a mirror image and, without exception the subjects remarked that it was one of the best portraits they'd had taken. We all have our perceptions of what we look and sound like and when the truth turns out to be different, we find it a difficult concept to come to terms with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 I know I can't sing. Everyone tells me. But give me a mic and I can hold pitch as I can hear myself (I still have a crap voice though). Using a mic is like any instrument, you have to get used to it. My Wife has always been a fantastic singer & when I first gave her a mic to sing through, she was all over the shop as it sounded totally different to what she's used to. After a little practice on her own & then with some music, she was every bit as good again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldG Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1359017272' post='1948415'] I think the OP was suffering more from "voice inside the head" syndrome. Basically not sounding the same outside their head as they did inside their own head. [/quote] Totally agree! not disputing that in any way... [quote] No amount of fancy Microphones or PA will resolve this as it requires training (which the OP already has said).[/quote] I'd use the term 'practice' myself [quote] Unfortunately for some of us microphones only amplify what is put in (and put a "generally" minor EQ on the voice as part of the process) so it is somewhat different to your guitar analogy I'm afraid. [/quote] All those different mics pre's and Pa's available out there are not gonna give identical sound... The guitar analogy was to compare to singing acoustically,then using a rig that was last used at a gig to be heard over the rest of the band. I thought it relevant... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldG Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 [quote name='mcgraham' timestamp='1359020271' post='1948458'] mmm... sound source can be sound, and the singer can be happy singing along, but that doesn't mean the tonal quality is in any way good.[/quote] I was crediting the OP with enough objectivity to honestly assess this in his voice - we are a musician's forum,after all. [quote] If you sound good, it doesn't matter what mic you use the quality in the voice will be self-evident. If you don't sound good, no amount of mic technique or flattering mic is going to fix the underlying issue.[/quote] Agreed to a point... until you start using the mic/monitors it's difficult hear whats really going on - then the decent equipment and good mic technique will help you shape your tone and style... [quote] +1. We often think we sound fine/awful, but in reality we are each incapable of getting a true representation of what we sound like from inside our own bodies. This is because we hear more internal resonance, experience resonance shifts that others do not, and hear things sooner than the rest of the world listening, but we also hear less of what we sound like as a complete package or inside a given space. [/quote] Totally agree! see above... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 (edited) Never forget the old adage "poo in, poo out", if the PA is the best ever invented, then if the singer cant sing well or has a voice that sounds like poo tonally, then all that the best PA in the world ever invented will do is output poo really loudly and accurately. A less good(garbage) PA would output a poorer representation of the voice (poo), but it will always be pooey garbage, remember the equation:- (poo + garbage) != fabulous_darling And you wont go far wrong. In my limited (thankfully) experience of attempting (misguidedly) to use my voice in a musical fashion, it soon became apparent that no amount of training would make the apallingly flawed instrument I have available to me remotely forgivable in that context (its very good for shouting though). Similarly no amount of money spent on PA or recording facilities could in any way make anyone believe that it was secretly a fabulous voice and that it was mererly duisguised by the naff PA. Thank goodness you can trade up basses though, the first one I had was worse than my voice! Edited January 24, 2013 by 51m0n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldG Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 The point I,m labouriously flogging is..... As stated above, we don't really hear what is coming out of our mouths - due to our ears listening mostly to the inside resonance. Difficult then, to bring a voice that has had no prior practice whilst amplified to a pumped up PA - and expect to hear good things... This doesn't mean the voice is bad - it just means practice is required to adjust to the required result. I stand by good equipment being helpful - trying to learn vocals on your daughter's karaoke machine is like trying to learn bass on an old Kay.You just won't get results to inspire you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobVbass Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 (edited) I think everyone is furiously agreeing with each other using slightly different view points. To get the best results: Practice with a decent Mic (SM58 standard or better), monitor and PA - it's a slightly different but essential technique you need to master from singing unamplified. Take some lessons to learn diaphram control and breathing techniques, this will increase your vocal strength and control. Then work on your pitch and harmonies. Good Voice; Crap equipment = Crap Sound Crap Voice; Good equipment = Crap Sound Good Voice; Good Equipment = Happy Bass Players Edited January 24, 2013 by bob_pickard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 [quote name='bob_pickard' timestamp='1359028309' post='1948607'] Good Voice; Good Equipment = [s]Happy Bass Players[/s] beyond miraculous with 51m0n's voice.... [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 [quote name='essexbasscat' timestamp='1359020650' post='1948463'] This sounds like wisdom gained from experience of vocal teaching. Is there a resource of this kind of knowledge that we can all access ? Hopefully some good tips would be there as well [/quote] I blog on various things I feel I have something vaguely useful and concise to say, which I hope can help you understand a bit more of what's going on... www.markjwgraham.co.uk/blog and for a listing of the more article like things i've written www.markjwgraham.co.uk/blog/articles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 [quote name='bob_pickard' timestamp='1359028309' post='1948607'] Good Voice; Crap equipment = Crap Sound [/quote] Slightly disagree with this one in that I've heard a really excellent singer through a really rubbish mic and pa and she still sounded amazing through it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1359030830' post='1948663'] Slightly disagree with this one in that I've heard a really excellent singer through a really rubbish mic and pa and she still sounded amazing through it [/quote] I'd also agree with Charic. It's a bit like bootleg recordings of a great band. You hear the quality of the sound source even through the poor recording. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 [quote name='mcgraham' timestamp='1359030998' post='1948664'] I'd also agree with Charic. It's a bit like bootleg recordings of a great band. You hear the quality of the sound source even through the poor recording. [/quote] I dont so much - but thats my problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lfalex v1.1 Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 [quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1359018548' post='1948428'] One of these: [url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/boss_ve20_vocal_performer.htm"]http://www.thomann.d...l_performer.htm[/url] ... and you'll sound like Adele. [/quote] So I'll sound great but moan even more than I do now? She's like Morrissey in drag, but without the class... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Skytfaoooooooooolllllll.... Yup its uncanny! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Isn't it 'scaffold'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevB Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 (edited) Not unless 'Lily The Pink' has been slipped in as a Bond theme, no In all fairness anyone on here who had recently won a Grammy for co writing a song that had been a hit and who had been invited to perform it at The 'Oscars' would be all over this site like a rash so good on her I say. Edited January 24, 2013 by KevB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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