Ear plugs

[EBS_freak]

PS - I cannot sing ACS praises enough. They have transferred my playing comfort. Their moulded plugs and IEM systems are second to none!

[chris_b]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1359111331' post='1949968']
....So how do we decide when they are necessary?...
[/quote]

As someone with damaged hearing I'd say safety first is the best line to take.

Protect yourself when you start going to gigs, playing in a band or even when you start playing with other electrified instruments.


You don't wait until you've gone through the windscreen before you decide to put your seat belt on.

[Dood]

I think it's fair to say that evolution hasn't moved as fast as technology - Our ears are really not designed to deal with being exposed for long periods to anything that has a high SPL. (Generally man made 'stuff' seems to come to mind when I think about it.)

Tractor, drum kit, shooting, even using hammer drills for extended periods can all give the ear drums a serious rattling. All of those should require either turning down (where possible!!) or the use of ear plugs/defenders.

So how do we decide when necessary - I guess that can be difficult. There are published guidelines (sometimes printed on the back of ear plug packets, but I have also seen them in amplifier manuals too) that suggest the maximum amount of time to be exposed to a particular volume, rated in decibels. They sometimes have some practical examples too, for example 'road drill' or 'aeroplane taking off'. I think there's two problems there straight away. Firstly we don't carry around suitable test gear wherever we are to take note of the ambient volumes we are being subjected to. The other problem is that I don't live near an airport or do I spend lots of time near road drills, so it's hard to make a comparison between those a distance away or my drummer 2 metres from my noggin!

[xilddx]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1359111331' post='1949968']
So how do we decide when they are necessary?

I appreciate the better-safe-than-sorry approach, but I reckon I often play my Hifi as loud as we usually rehearse so should that require hearing protection? Also, if I'm on my tractor all morning (doing proper high-revving work like mowing or ploughing) then my ears will ring slightly unless I wear ear defenders ( which I do). Same thing with clay shooting. But the band doesn't seem to cause the same problem.
[/quote]

The first noise action level is 80dB(A) and the usual informal test is whether you can have a normal conversation with someone a couple of metres away without raising your voice. At work we have to limit exposure at this level. I'd suggest you consider wearing some hearing protection if this sort of noise level is maintained for some time. Your rehearsals may well be much louder than this and I definitely advise wearing hearing protection in most band rehearsals with drums.

[JamesBass]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1359111331' post='1949968']
So how do we decide when they are necessary?

I appreciate the better-safe-than-sorry approach, but I reckon I often play my Hifi as loud as we usually rehearse so should that require hearing protection? Also, if I'm on my tractor all morning (doing proper high-revving work like mowing or ploughing) then my ears will ring slightly unless I wear ear defenders ( which I do). Same thing with clay shooting. But the band doesn't seem to cause the same problem.
[/quote]

If you research Noise Induced Hearing Loss and Noise exposure times and Decibel levels you'll soon realise just how important it is to wear ear plugs. Each time you experience ringing in your ears it means you've damaged them, all be it only slightly but each time you do damage to them you'll soon experience a sudden loss of frequencies and the level will drop. Seriously I'd recommend EVERYONE who plays music whether it's just low level practicing or full band rehearsals, just do it. Hearing is the thing you need most for playing.

[xilddx]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1359112212' post='1949983']
I think it's fair to say that evolution hasn't moved as fast as technology - Our ears are really not designed to deal with being exposed for long periods to anything that has a high SPL. (Generally man made 'stuff' seems to come to mind when I think about it.)

Tractor, drum kit, shooting, even using hammer drills for extended periods can all give the ear drums a serious rattling. All of those should require either turning down (where possible!!) or the use of ear plugs/defenders.

So how do we decide when necessary - I guess that can be difficult. There are published guidelines (sometimes printed on the back of ear plug packets, but I have also seen them in amplifier manuals too) that suggest the maximum amount of time to be exposed to a particular volume, rated in decibels. They sometimes have some practical examples too, for example 'road drill' or 'aeroplane taking off'. I think there's two problems there straight away. Firstly we don't carry around suitable test gear wherever we are to take note of the ambient volumes we are being subjected to. The other problem is that I don't live near an airport or do I spend lots of time near road drills, so it's hard to make a comparison between those a distance away or my drummer 2 metres from my noggin!
[/quote]

Here you go [url="http://www.hse.gov.uk/noise/calculator.htm"]http://www.hse.gov.uk/noise/calculator.htm[/url]

[Dood]

The other thing I wanted to add about ears ringing that usually gets missed:

If you go out to band practice and you arrive home with ringing ears, the damage has been done already. If you wake up in the morning and the ringing has gone, the damage hasn't repaired. It can't. Next time you go out to a gig and come back with ringing ears, that's not the same damage, that's even more. It's cumulative. Some people have gone to many gigs and not suffered from ringing effects of tinitus, but actually they could have suffered the same amount of damage to their ears unwittingly.

So, ear plugs in! It's not worth the risk!

[Dood]

[quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1359112438' post='1949988']
If you research Noise Induced Hearing Loss and Noise exposure times and Decibel levels you'll soon realise just how important it is to wear ear plugs. Each time you experience ringing in your ears it means you've damaged them, all be it only slightly but each time you do damage to them you'll soon experience a sudden loss of frequencies and the level will drop. Seriously I'd recommend EVERYONE who plays music whether it's just low level practicing or full band rehearsals, just do it. Hearing is the thing you need most for playing.
[/quote]

Ahh we both typed a similar reply at the same time! - Yes, my own hearing measurements support this statement! I have a dip in the frequencies of my hearing as described.

[Dood]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1359112512' post='1949993']
Here you go [url="http://www.hse.gov.uk/noise/calculator.htm"]http://www.hse.gov.u.../calculator.htm[/url]
[/quote]

Excellent! Thank you!

[Commando Jack]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1359112212' post='1949983']
even using hammer drills for extended periods
[/quote]

I started wearing ear plugs because of the discomfort of standing so close to the drummer's snare that it was going through me, but noticed the same level of discomfort when working with some power tools. Now I keep my earplugs in a little pouch on my keys so I'm able to use them whenever I need them (power tools, bands mostly).

There are almost identical threads like this one on woodworking forums. However there are reports of people having a hearing test only to find out that they lost the ability to hear only certain parts of the frequency spectrum due to the consistency of the motor noises, which effectively notched their hearing.

[chris_b]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1359112212' post='1949983']
....I think it's fair to say that evolution hasn't moved as fast as technology....
[/quote]

Band evolution has moved pretty quickly as well.

In my current bass rig I am using more watts than my first 2 bands put together.

Most of the drummers I play with are now using plugs but none of the guitarists, keyboard players or singers are!

[xilddx]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1359112636' post='1949995']
The other thing I wanted to add about ears ringing that usually gets missed:

If you go out to band practice and you arrive home with ringing ears, the damage has been done already. If you wake up in the morning and the ringing has gone, the damage hasn't repaired. It can't. Next time you go out to a gig and come back with ringing ears, that's not the same damage, that's even more. It's cumulative. Some people have gone to many gigs and not suffered from ringing effects of tinitus, but actually they could have suffered the same amount of damage to their ears unwittingly.

So, ear plugs in! It's not worth the risk!
[/quote]

This is good [url="http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/hearing/pages/noise.aspx"]http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/hearing/pages/noise.aspx[/url]

Also [url="http://www.actiononhearingloss.org.uk/your-hearing/look-after-your-hearing.aspx"]http://www.actiononhearingloss.org.uk/your-hearing/look-after-your-hearing.aspx[/url]

[Dood]

[quote name='Commando Jack' timestamp='1359112881' post='1950004']
/snip
However there are reports of people having a hearing test only to find out that they lost the ability to hear only certain parts of the frequency spectrum due to the consistency of the motor noises, which effectively notched their hearing.
[/quote]

Yes exactly! - I was offered a set of hearing aids that are programmable which only boost in the areas of frequency that have been lost. This is set after taking readings using the usual specialised test gear to ascertain where the losses are. The trial was actually pretty amazing and I would very much like to buy a set. (Not that my hearing could be considered bad - I'm just a geek!) It's very true when they say 'you don't know what you got, 'til it's gone' but more so in this case, it's almost frightening to hear for the first time what effect those losses have had on hearing. It wasn't [i]just[/i] about 'the sound of things' either. Spatial awareness seemed to be hyper sensitive as my brain has obviously been over compensating for those dips. Genuinely, it seems like a bizarre thing to say but I could actually hear the size of the room just by the noise that the computer was making.

Tests have also suggested that using these hearing aids can actually help alleviate some of the effects of Tinnitus too. By boosting those frequencies that have been lost, your brain stops trying to turn up the sensitivity in those areas to compensate for the loss. It is believed this turning up of the 'gain' is what induces the Tinnitus effect in recent testing. I can't say for sure if that's true, I'm not an audiologist - but certainly the two audiologists I have spoken to about this support the statement.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1359112397' post='1949986']
The first noise action level is 80dB(A) and the usual informal test is whether you can have a normal conversation with someone a couple of metres away without raising your voice. At work we have to limit exposure at this level. I'd suggest you consider wearing some hearing protection if this sort of noise level is maintained for some time. Your rehearsals may well be much louder than this and I definitely advise wearing hearing protection in most band rehearsals with drums.
[/quote]

Thanks for that - exactly the sort of info I was looking for. Thanks.

Actually, I recently downloaded a decibel meter app for my phone. Haven't had a chance to use it at rehearsals yet, but I will next time. I doubt it's particularly accurate but it'll be interesting to see what readings it comes up with and should be a rough guide anyway.

[Marvin]

[quote name='TRBboy' timestamp='1359031487' post='1948670']
I use the Alpine Musicsafe earplugs, and they're awesome for the money. Come with a carrying case and a choice of three different attenuation inserts, plus a spare earplug. I can't gig without them now, it sounds like a right racket!
[/quote]

I've got these and can't get on with them at all. I can't hear anything when I wear them, so I don't bother.

[xilddx]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1359141010' post='1950735']
Thanks for that - exactly the sort of info I was looking for. Thanks.

Actually, I recently downloaded a decibel meter app for my phone. Haven't had a chance to use it at rehearsals yet, but I will next time. I doubt it's particularly accurate but it'll be interesting to see what readings it comes up with and should be a rough guide anyway.
[/quote]

Mmm, I wouldn't trust it too much. But it will be about right, there should be some documentation with it saying how out it can be and not to use it for professional purposes.

A quick search found this simple noise exposure guide. But the lower action level in the UK under the Noise at Work regs is 80dB(A) I think this is old, or American or summat

http://www.dangerousdecibels.org/education/information-center/decibel-exposure-time-guidelines/

[flyfisher]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1359142141' post='1950768']
Mmm, I wouldn't trust it too much. But it will be about right, there should be some documentation with it saying how out it can be and not to use it for professional purposes.
[/quote]

Agreed.

[Dusty]

I'm really struggling now to hear my bass on stage & in rehearsal. I play in a heavy metal band and stand between a powerhouse of a drummer to my right & Full Marshall stack to my left. I use a Markbass LMT into an 8x10 and can't hear it over the din. I know my hearing is damaged to some extent (verified) but I need to do something. It's not that my rig is not powerful enough as the band complain I'm to loud.
I understand that bass frequencies travel in a funny wave form so are louder further away from the source, but that doesn't help me stood right in front of the bass rig. I've tried normal industrial ear plugs which does help to dampen the noise of the snare and guitar next to me, but I still can't hear myself. Is it possible to get plugs that will cut certain frequencies (snares, cymbals & guitars) allowing me to hear my bass better ?
Cheers

[markbunney]

hi, ive got acs custom e15 plugs (and have just ordered some pro 17's), they cut everyting down by 15 decibels but i find i hear my bass much clearer with them. They are not cheap (£140), but well worth. Plus not having ringing ears at the end of a gig, and not eventually going deaf is priceless.

[Damonjames]

I forgot to post back on this, I ordered some acs er20's for the whole band off the overwhelming positive feedback. The other two guy in the band are happy, but for me they fit like any other earplug I've tried, if I move my mouth/face they work their way loose, not good as I do backing vox. Wish I'd tried the noizezz ones now but oh we'll, they cut the noise down really well though and can hear the mix just fine so +1 for effectiveness but -1 on the fit

[Dusty]

I've just looked at these and they seem very good, plus some good positive comments on this thread, but very pricey to pay on the off chance they might work ! Do you need to go to a specialist to get these ?

[neepheid]

[quote name='Damonjames' timestamp='1367619704' post='2067767']
I forgot to post back on this, I ordered some acs er20's for the whole band off the overwhelming positive feedback. The other two guy in the band are happy, but for me they fit like any other earplug I've tried, if I move my mouth/face they work their way loose, not good as I do backing vox. Wish I'd tried the noizezz ones now but oh we'll, they cut the noise down really well though and can hear the mix just fine so +1 for effectiveness but -1 on the fit
[/quote]

There are two sizes, do you have the ER-20 or the ER-20S? S=small. I needed the small as I found the larger ones to be uncomfortable during extended use. Maybe you have the small ones and need the regular.

[joeystrange]

[quote name='Dusty' timestamp='1367621126' post='2067784']
I've just looked at these and they seem very good, plus some good positive comments on this thread, but very pricey to pay on the off chance they might work ! Do you need to go to a specialist to get these ?
[/quote]

I got a set of Pro 17s a few months ago (after thinking about it for a long time) and they're brilliant! Everything sounds great, just quieter.
You do need to go to a specialist but Boots Hearingcare is a dealer and there's one in most big towns. Plus they signed me up for their hearing club (for free) to get a discount so they ended up costing £112ish instead of £140.

Although if it's just hearing the bass that you're worried about, cheap generic foam plugs cut all the top end and leave the lows, although it'll be very muddy. It's strange that you tried them and still couldn't hear the bass.

[Dusty]

Thanks Joey, will check out boots. The foam ones are great for protection purposes and for a few pence a pack you can't go wrong, but my hearing is shot a certain frequencies due to years of engine testing without protection, even at low volumes I struggle to hear myself over anyone else

[TimR]

Most of the attack, definition and pitch information from bass is in the mid and high frequencies. Foam plugs will make the issue worse.

In ear monitoring will probably be the only way to go if you've lost those frequencies.

If you sing then you need the 'vented' ER plugs. They should allow the air to move around when you move your jaw and prevent the plugs from moving about.