Japanese High End Basses - Atelier, Moon, Bacchus etc.

[molan]

I saw the amazing Francis Hylton tearing it up on a lovely looking Atelier Z bass last night and it started me wondering why we never see any of these for sale in the UK?

I've never played one but it really sounded great in Francis' hands and reminded me of the very best of something like an NYC Sadowsky. Anyone here tried one?

I also got to play a Moon recently as well and that was a great bass - again it really nailed that modern 'super-jazz' sound and feel. Although the odd one pops up on the used market, it's another brand you rarely see in the UK?

Bacchus is the other one I can think of. I have a feeling they have some 'offshore' basses but their MIJ ones have a good rep.

I guess it could be that people associate MIJ with a 'cheaper that MIA' Fender and think anything from Japan should be lower cost?

Or maybe the simple cost of distance shipping and an expensive local workforce just makes them too expensive for anyone to import?

[BigRedX]

1. Most of them are essentially Fender copies. Good Fender copies granted, but we already have access to lots of good Fender copies from the likes of Sadowsky, Lakland and Overwater to name but a few. IMO the market is over-saturated with these instruments, so a Japanese version would have to be both an exceptional instrument and cheaper.

2. The exchange rate. Right now £1 is worth about ¥140. Five years ago it was worth around ¥250. As you can see that means right now Japanese-made instruments are even more expensive.

I depresses me that these fairly derivative instruments get all the publicity, when there are Japanese manufacturers making far more innovative and original instruments. Take a look at the output of the ESP Japan custom shop, or pretty much anything by Atlansia instead.

[molan]

I must admit I'd normally think there's an over saturation of the expensive Fender clones but I think that an NYC Sadowsky is just about the easiest high end bass to sell on the used market so there's obviously lots of demand for them.

It's a funny old market at times, Fender traditionally struggle to sell high end active basses but 'copies' of their core design fetch £3K new and can easily go over £2K used.

I played an ESP CS bass once, very nice but I know the owner found it hard to sell for anything like what it cost new.

Never heard of Atlansia before - they have some pretty crazy designs!

http://www.atlansia.jp/BASS.NEW.HTML#P1

There's even a 1 string 'Solitaire' bass in here, lol

[Dingus]

I too like a lot of the high quality Japanese basses I have played . I really like the design ethic that a lot of Japanese instrument makers seem to have and , without wishing to deal in stereotypes or generalisations , they seem to be a culture that demands and enjoys top quality goods . of all kinds . I played an Atlansia bass briefly about twenty years ago and I remember it had a very big and round neck . The neck profile was so different to any normal bass that it had obviously been designed like that deliberately , but what that reason was I couldn't work out . I called back in the same shop around ten years later and the bass was still unsold

I would be intrested in high end Japanese basses , but I think retailers would face a residual reluctance from the buying public to paying large amounts of money for Far Eastern basses . Not many punters in the UK ( or indeed in the States ) would hand over their cash for Bossa or Moon bass when you could get a Wal or Sadowsky or similar Western brand for the same money . Another aspect to this is that the Japanese manufacturers may not seek to exploit the export market . The brands you mention will , I expect , be relatively small concerns who might be able to sell their full production without agressively seeking out foreign distribution .

[BigRedX]

Sadowskys sell because they are a well-established make and Roger Sadowsky was able to build up a strong base of customers through his repair and customisation services, which lead to lots of big-name players being seen with his instruments.

The Japanese makes sell well in Japan where the various exchange rates and import duties make them cheaper than super-jazzes from Europe and the US. The interest in these Japanese basses in the UK a few years ago was mostly fuelled by the favourable exchange rate which made the second hand examples in particular very attractive financially. The current exchange rate means that even if the Yen price hasn't changed the UKP price is somewhere between 50% and 100% more than it was 5 years ago.

If you are still GASing for Japanese super-jazzes here's a few more makes to add to your list:

[url="http://www.taurus-jp.com/vanzandt/index.html"]VanZandt[/url]

[url="http://www.crewsguitars.co.jp/index.html"]Crews Maniac Sound[/url]

[url="http://www.deviser-momose.com"]Momose[/url] (part of Deviser who also make Bacchus)

There's also Bossa that are made in Japan, but I can't find the Japanese web site (a common problem with all but the biggest Japanese guitar makers).

BTW I own an Atlansia fretless Solitaire Bass. It's a fantastic fun instrument!

Edited January 27, 2013 by BigRedX

[ordep]

always dreamt of owning one of these:

http://www.str-guitars.com/modules/products/index.php?content_id=1

[LukeFRC]

- Exchange rate
- lack of marketing (or English website)
- lack of distribution
- Cos we still have hang ups about where something comes from? I mean within a lot of you guys playing age japan was known for cheap copies. Now we think of china in the same way... my suggestion is that in 20 years the best basses in the world may come out of a court factory in china... but enough folk will look down their nose at them that they won't get stocked in the same way.
- by the time you get to a bass worth importing, pay shiping and taxes a UK based luthier could custom make you something awesome too.


slightly OT is sadowsky metro line the only japanese made basses with major distribution to the uk at the mo?

[noelk27]

Not forgetting ...

http://www.sugiguitars.com/

http://www.fgnguitars.com/

http://www.tuneguitars.com/

[EBS_freak]

Atelier also have a hand in an old brand coming back from the dead...

http://www.rockinn.co.jp/goodfellow-londonderry.html

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1359320123' post='1953105']
Atelier also have a hand in an old brand coming back from the dead...

http://www.rockinn.co.jp/goodfellow-londonderry.html
[/quote]

Me likey!

[BigRedX]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1359311367' post='1952917']
- Cos we still have hang ups about where something comes from? I mean within a lot of you guys playing age japan was known for cheap copies. Now we think of china in the same way... my suggestion is that in 20 years the best basses in the world may come out of a court factory in china... but enough folk will look down their nose at them that they won't get stocked in the same way.
[/quote]

Anyone who still thinks that "Made In Japan" is automatically inferior when it comes to musical instruments is a fool. Ever since I saw how much better in every way the new guitars and basses from Ibanez and Aria Pro II were compared to Fenders in 1979, I have had no problem buying Japanese-made instruments. The three most recent basses I have bought were all made in Japan.

[BigRedX]

And my favourite Japanese instruments after Atlansia, [url=http://www.geocities.jp/jerseygirlhg/home.htm]Jersey Girl[/url].

[thodrik]

My Sadowsky Metro is made in Japan and the quality is as high as any of my other instruments.

I think that previous comments from BigRed X have pretty much nailed why we don't see too many of the Japanese brand 'Super Fender' basses for sale in the UK

[Gust0o]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1359322396' post='1953146']
And my favourite Japanese instruments after Atlansia, [url="http://www.geocities.jp/jerseygirlhg/home.htm"]Jersey Girl[/url].
[/quote]

For the nation that invented lean manufacture, that's a stunning example of craft production - some brilliant insight on show in that link. The attention to detail on the inlays is superb.

[Prime_BASS]

it's all about Germany anyway.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1359322310' post='1953145']
Anyone who still thinks that "Made In Japan" is automatically inferior when it comes to musical instruments is a fool. Ever since I saw how much better in every way the new guitars and basses from Ibanez and Aria Pro II were compared to Fenders in 1979, I have had no problem buying Japanese-made instruments. The three most recent basses I have bought were all made in Japan.
[/quote] I don't think that your or my taste in instruments really reflects the wider population, personally I've owned twice as many japanese instruments than all the other countries put together but ... let me put it this way... most guitar shops for guitars sold as "good" focus on Fender and Gibson.
To their loss

[molan]

I must admit that I think there's still a general perception of 'made in Japan' instruments being inferior to USA. This must be partly down to years of Fender pricing them below their USA standard models?

To be honest I think that us Brits in general are pretty jingoistic when it comes to appraising instruments pretty much anywhere outside of the UK or USA. In fact, if I'm being really critical, there's a hell of a lot of players out there who look down their noses at anything other than American made instruments.

A lot of this is just good old Fender, Gibson, Rickenbacker, MusicMan etc heritage followed up, in more recent years, by the rarity and desirability of the super Jazzes pioneered (to something approaching a mass market anyway) by Roger Sadowsky and the custom shops at Fodera, Alembic, Spector, Zon etc.

Personally I'd think that Japanese and German craftsmanship, manufacturing skill and attention to detail would be at the forefront of modern instrument production but there's still a bias over here against them (interesting that Warwick reversed this trend for a while but seem to be quite out of favour now).

I guess the other one that still surprises me is the negativity you see against lots of UK luthiers. Maybe not so much here on BC but try selling a Shuker, Sei, Overwater, GB etc to the more mainstream bass playing public and watch them turn their noses up when you say you have a handmade British instrument.

Anyway - I have a Danish super-J on its way fairly soon so that'll keep me quiet for a bit until I spot an Aelier Z or a nice Larry Graham Moon up for sale

Definitely going to browse all those other links people have suggested as well!

[Chris2112]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1359322310' post='1953145']
Anyone who still thinks that "Made In Japan" is automatically inferior when it comes to musical instruments is a fool.
[/quote]

Crazy to think that attitude could ever exist. The Japanese are the master craftsmen of the world.


A traditionally strong yen, big shipping costs and lack of a professional player base outside of Japan are probably the reasons why small-time Japanese luthiers haven't made a big dent in the Western market. Yamaha got by through massive distribution networks, yet no-one questions their quality!

[BigRedX]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1359333081' post='1953303']
I must admit that I think there's still a general perception of 'made in Japan' instruments being inferior to USA. This must be partly down to years of Fender pricing them below their USA standard models?

...

I guess the other one that still surprises me is the negativity you see against lots of UK luthiers. Maybe not so much here on BC but try selling a Shuker, Sei, Overwater, GB etc to the more mainstream bass playing public and watch them turn their noses up when you say you have a handmade British instrument.
[/quote]

For a factory-made instrument Made In Japan trumps Made In America every time for build quality.

Unfortunately most bassists still want something that looks like a Fender and with a recognisable name on the headstock, and that means either an actual Fender or one of the better known high-end copies. Sad but true.

And it's also sad that UK-made instruments aren't more widely known and used. Here I think it's mostly price, as with the exception of Overwater and Status it's a very much build to customer order business model. IMO UK-made instruments are as good as any other in the high end. While I own instruments from all around the world, all but one of my main guitars and basses were made here in the UK.