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Tone...The Holy Grail


Pete Academy
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As has been said a million times before, literally, your playing and your overall musical identity rapidly overtakes any tonal characteristics of bass, amp and all the variables unless you're really going at it with effects or extreme differences in EQ etc.

I have never actively purchased a bass guitar or amp based on the hope that I might define my own sound or 'tone', I just buy what I think sounds nice, or rather what I hope I can make sound nice in a band or studio environment. I'm just very aware that from venue to venue and from studio to studio or whatever, my sound is going to vary uncontrollably so by extension trying to evolve a specific sound too much is kind of a waste of my time.

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[quote name='plumbob' timestamp='1359573298' post='1956918']
So to cover most tones I am now using a combination of things, my plank of wood with strings is actually a Yamaha TRB5Pll, a Roland V bass, an EBS HD650 amp and a BFM Jack
[/quote]

But, if anyone else played through your gear, they would all sound different.
It all starts with the player. I could play a Precision all day, and I wouldn't sound like Jamerson or Pino.It's just how it is. The characteristics of the player
are a lot more noticable, audibly, than the characteristics of the instrument.

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[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1359575672' post='1956974']
But, if anyone else played through your gear, they would all sound different.
It all starts with the player. I could play a Precision all day, and I wouldn't sound like Jamerson or Pino.It's just how it is. The characteristics of the player
are a lot more noticable, audibly, than the characteristics of the instrument.
[/quote]


Doddy
I know what your saying , but are you now talking about style of playing not tone?

Honestly I wouldn’t have said that before using the V bass , but the reality now is that I could stick the midi pickup on your bass , Pino’s bass , or even a plank of wood with strings on it and if I selected the Jazz Bass Slap Preset , you or Pino would have exactly the same bass tone as myself .

Now whether I can use that bass tone to play in the style of Jamerson , Pino or Marcus is questionable ! :lol:

Edited by plumbob
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[quote name='plumbob' timestamp='1359576617' post='1956998']



Doddy
I know what your saying , but are you now talking about style of playing not tone?

Honestly I wouldn’t have said that before using the V bass , but the reality now is that I could stick the midi pickup on your bass , Pino’s bass , or even a plank of wood with strings on it and if I selected the Jazz Bass Slap Preset , you or Pino would have exactly the same bass tone as myself .

Now whether I can use that bass tone to play in the style of Jamerson , Pino or Marcus is questionable ! :lol:
[/quote]
No, I'm still talking about tone.
No matter what you're running it through, it all starts with your hands, and everyone plays differently. How I pluck the strings will be different from how
you pluck the strings and that is the biggest thing, way before the electronics.
No need to fit a midi pickup to my bass...I've been running a V Bass with one of my basses for years :)

Edited by Doddy
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Doddy

I refer to what you said earlier

( The characteristics of the player
are a lot more noticable, audibly, than the characteristics of the instrument.)

So are characteristics not style?

As you know with V bass you are but a midi controller triggering the tone .

By the way nice hear off another V bass user , I was beginning to think it was only me and Ped ! :lol:

Edited by plumbob
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[quote name='Pete Academy' timestamp='1359500161' post='1955945']
We're all chasing that elusive tone that we hear in our heads. But is it all down to our fingers and how we play? Are we wasting our time and money buying new gear?
[/quote]

What if the player plays dubstep, or electronica.
I doubt that dub is 'in the fingers' .

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[quote name='plumbob' timestamp='1359579021' post='1957056']
Doddy

I refer to what you said earlier

( The characteristics of the player
are a lot more noticable, audibly, than the characteristics of the instrument.)

So are characteristics not style?

As you know with V bass you are but a midi controller triggering the tone .

By the way nice hear off another V bass user , I was beginning to think it was only me and Ped ! :lol:
[/quote]

When I mention a players characteristics,I meaning more about the way that they play that shapes their
sound-it's an individual and unique thing to each player.You could class it as a style,but I think of style as
being more of a genre thing with regards feel and note choices.

The V Bass is great,I don't use it often enough though.


[quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1359579508' post='1957070']
What if the player plays dubstep, or electronica.
I doubt that dub is 'in the fingers' .
[/quote]
It starts off in the fingers though. How you play the instrument and the sound that you produce changes
how the effects react.

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Guest bassman7755

Whats all this sudden obsession with "tone", have I accidentally logged on to guitarchat.co.uk ?.

I just saddens me that people will spend the rest of their lives obsessing about something which quite honestly makes sod all difference to the vast majority of people who will ever watch them play when they could be putting the time and energy to much better use. I mean really its almost hard not to get a decent sound from modern kit so why waste time chasing some ultimate unobtainable super tone.

Edited by bassman7755
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[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1359581332' post='1957115']
Whats all this sudden obsession with "tone", have I accidentally logged on to guitarchat.co.uk ?.

I just saddens me that people will spend the rest of their lives obsessing about something which quite honestly makes sod all difference to the vast majority of people who will ever watch them play when they could be putting the time and energy to much better use. I mean really its almost hard not to get a decent sound from modern kit so why waste time chasing some ultimate unobtainable super tone.
[/quote]



It wasn't me honest gov ! Pete started it ! :dash1:

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[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1359581332' post='1957115']
Whats all this sudden obsession with "tone", have I accidentally logged on to guitarchat.co.uk ?.

I just saddens me that people will spend the rest of their lives obsessing about something which quite honestly makes sod all difference to the vast majority of people who will ever watch them play when they could be putting the time and energy to much better use. I mean really its almost hard not to get a decent sound from modern kit so why waste time chasing some ultimate unobtainable super tone.
[/quote]

Yeah, sod it. I'm turning up to my next gig with a Ukelele. The load in and load out will be so much easier.

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[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1359549823' post='1956382']
It's not just tone that we're after with kit though, [b]the attack and release, and the envelope, are as important, or even more so, than tone[/b]. Tone is a misleading word.

True that a lot of our sounds come from what we do with our hands, but if your bass, amp and effects are not reacting to your hands in the way you need or expect, or in a way that pleases and inspires you, or in a way that fits your musical vision or the music you play, then it's time to change that kit for something that does. Of course, there is a lot of inexperience or ignorance around too, which the industry likes to capitalise on.

I change my sounds quite often, I am on a journey of improvement. But because I have a POD X3 LIVE, I dont need to spend loads of cash buying and selling amps and effects to get what I want. And I have the ONE bass which delights me.
[/quote]

+1 which is all part of how it sits in the mix. I am going to hunt through your posts to work out what that "one" is :)

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[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1359581332' post='1957115']
Whats all this sudden obsession with "tone", have I accidentally logged on to guitarchat.co.uk ?.

I just saddens me that people will spend the rest of their lives obsessing about something which quite honestly makes sod all difference to the vast majority of people who will ever watch them play when they could be putting the time and energy to much better use. [b]I mean really its almost hard not to get a decent sound from modern kit so why waste time chasing some ultimate unobtainable super tone.[/b]
[/quote]

I'm looking forward to hearing yours man :) May we?

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[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1359594416' post='1957416']
Warwick Streamer ChromeTone with an ebony fretboard, mate :) I f***ing adore it!
[/quote] ahh I just found it, listened to a load of Kit Richardson stuff too... laptop speakers on low late at night but it sounds great man. (given I couldn't hear the bass at all ;) ) reminded me a bit of zoey van goey (check out the propeller vs wings album)

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[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1359594905' post='1957421']
ahh I just found it, listened to a load of Kit Richardson stuff too... laptop speakers on low late at night but it sounds great man. (given I couldn't hear the bass at all ;) ) reminded me a bit of zoey van goey (check out the propeller vs wings album)
[/quote]

That's made my evening mate, thank you! Will check out[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] zoey van goey too, thank you.[/font][/color]

Edited by silddx
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[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1359595080' post='1957422']
That's made my evening mate, thank you!
[/quote] went back for a second listen! :)
i think it's her voice that reminds me of ZvG - they are very glasgow sounding and you are more London... hand written notes in vids though http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3h7nmL9PKM

Edited by LukeFRC
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Definitely most of it from the fingers and in particular where you place your plucking hand i.e.. next to the bridge over the pickup.......

Jaco use to play between the bridge and the bridge pick up with only that pickup on with full treble (not sure of the bass pickup volume he used but think it was 0). James Jamerson played just past the pickup.

Liked the ZVG video

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[quote name='yepmop' timestamp='1359617232' post='1957494']
Definitely most of it from the fingers and in particular where you place your plucking hand i.e.. next to the bridge over the pickup.......

[b]Jaco use to play between the bridge and the bridge pick up with only that pickup on with full treble (not sure of the bass pickup volume he used but think it was 0).[/b] James Jamerson played just past the pickup.

Liked the ZVG video
[/quote]

And what a horrible tone he had :D That's cool, it's a matter of taste, but like Led Zeppelin, he's inspired an awful lot of sh*t since.

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For me, its all about the Sansamp. I got one about a year ago and would never go without it! I have the Programmable DI one, its got 3 savable settings. Works wonders for me as I play different stuff all the time, one night Reggae the next Death metal! ha ha! Heres a video of some of the more heavier stuff going streight intro the desk via the sansamp - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU268uPYXv4

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I was very happy with the sound the I've been getting out of my gear for the past couple of years.
Last night I plugged in as usual at rehearsal and it just sounded better. I naturally thought my technique must have got even more spectacular and I was hearing extra talent out of the cones.
Turns out the compressor knob on my TC head had been unknowingly nudged from its natural resting place of 0/10 to 4/10.
I thought I didn't like an over compressed 'tone' but there you go. I must do so I'm keeping it.

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[quote name='Low End Bee' timestamp='1359732622' post='1959570']
Turns out the compressor knob on my TC head had been unknowingly nudged from its natural resting place of 0/10 to 4/10.
I thought I didn't like an over compressed 'tone' but there you go. I must do so I'm keeping it.
[/quote]

I don't like an overcompressed tone, but I do always use modest amount when playing through my rig as I find it improves the definition of the bass sound in the mix.

I don't think finding a great tone is EITHER fingers OR gear, but more a matter of getting the RIGHT COMBINATION of the two.

For example, back in 1991 when I was a 23 year old whippersnapper I bought a handmade KGB headless bass (maple body, bartolini single coils etc.. a good quality instrument) and never really played another fretted bass until I got an SR505 last year (I fancied delving into the world of 5s for a change).

I liked the bass initially, the weight, the slim neck, and once I got used to it, the string spacing were all good. It didn't have a BAD sound, and it worked really well for certain things, but over time I realised that I just couldn't do all the same things on it that I could do on the KGB. All the subtle little pluck, pops and nuances that I was used to playing were almost unachievable, or only achievable with a great deal more effort. I persevered with it, tried different strings etc, but ultimately it just wasn't working for me. If I was a pick player (for example) it might not have mattered so much, but the sound of the instrument simply didn't suit my style.

I decided to upgrade to an SR1205 last month after trying one out, and huzzah... I'm back in happy bunny land! The nordstrand big singles on it sound utterly fantastic... it's a whole different ball game to the 505.

So whilst a particular bass will not make you a better player, it may facilitate certain techniques that are not really possible on a different/lesser instrument. Of course I always sound like me no matter what bass I play on, but if I don't have a bass that suits my style, I don't sound like the complete me, because I can't do all of the me things that I'm used to doing....if that makes sense.

Edited by JellyKnees
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[quote name='Pete Academy' timestamp='1359500161' post='1955945']
We're all chasing that elusive tone that we hear in our heads. But is it all down to our fingers and how we play? Are we wasting our time and money buying new gear?
[/quote]

that and our ears and the way we hear

must be few things that are so intrinsically subjective which imho is the biggest hurdle to overcome - many peeps are acutely aware of how their voice sounds when the hear themselves for first time on a recording and/or amplified through a PA
personally i think many guitarists suffer a similar thing - although we hear the tone our ears and brain struggle to reconcile it with some 'golden tone' that exists in our imagination and the feedback loop that our mental ear hears because it knows what our fingers are up to!!

next time you go want to hear what your bass sounds like - go to an open mic night with a bass playing friend who you trust with your instrument and ask them to play a tune or two while you sit back and listen - admittedly you may not be going through the rig of your choice but you will be surprised whn you stand back and listen to your own bass with somebody elses fingers playing it after you eliminate the feedback loop in your own brain between your ears and your fingers :ph34r:

Edited by steve-bbb
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[quote name='ArcherBass' timestamp='1359728734' post='1959496']
For me, its all about the Sansamp. I got one about a year ago and would never go without it! I have the Programmable DI one, its got 3 savable settings. Works wonders for me as I play different stuff all the time, one night Reggae the next Death metal! ha ha! Heres a video of some of the more heavier stuff going streight intro the desk via the sansamp - [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU268uPYXv4[/media]
[/quote]

this is exactly why i love/hate warwicks so much - love that tone - just cant bear to pick one up though :( :huh:

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Tone is over rated. Most of the time what you think I'm hearing in the audience isn't what I'm hearing at all because you're too close to cabs to hear it like it is out front and/or the soundman has screwed the mix. Secondly I'm much more interested in what you're playing and how it sounds in the band. If the bass line is s**t, doesn't fit the music or is too loud (or too soft) then you can have the best tone in the world and it means nothing.

I find it interesting that on most instrument sites (I play too many instruments so I belong to a few) there is always more debate about equipment than music.

Steve

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