Vintage And Rare Guitars

[Happy Jack]

Ben,

It's always good when a supplier who has been criticised takes the trouble to come here and post in a reasonable and constructive fashion, but it also tends to draw a response.

I'll remain reasonable, too, but constructive will probably be beyond me.

On Simone's recommendation I decided to give your shop a try for selling my 1974 Rickenbacker 4001 Fretless. I brought it into your shop on Saturday afternoon. The salesman hummed and hawed, tried to persuade me it was a '75 before I stone-walled him into looking it up (which took nearly 30 seconds) and he had to agree it was a 1974, then explained how the '74 models were much less sought after than the '73.

After five minutes of this nonsense he put a price on it - £1695. You have a 1974 Rickenbacker 4001 (JetGlo) in similar condition in the corner at the moment. The price tag says £1995. Hmm. Apparently ultra-rare fretless Ric's are worth 15% less than standard basses at V&R.

I asked him how much of the £1695 would find its way back to me. He told me I would get about £1000. I mentioned to him what I do for a living (Finance Director) and then asked him to explain where the £695 had gone.

Well, there's the VAT of course. On a £1695 sale that's just over £200. The other £500 odd?

Ah well, there's the cash he's going to tie up in a slow-moving item. What cash? This is a consignment deal. Ah, he said, I'd forgotten that.

The libel laws being what they are, I'll refrain from telling you what I thought of your salesman and his ludicrous patter.

I simply picked up the Ric and strolled across the road to Wunjo's. They also valued the bass at £1695 (no input from me about V&R, I should add) despite being known as a significantly cheaper shop than you. They take 20% of the sale value. If the bass sells at £1695 then I'll get £1350. I have every expectation that the bass will actually sell at nearer £1500 and I'll end up with £1200.

If you'd like to see my bass, it's the one in the window. Brian's a nice guy. I'm sure he'll let you play with it.

Have a good recession.

[Kiwi]

Noone seems to know much about Musicman Cutlass basses there either, huh Ben?

[Shockwave]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='439904' date='Mar 19 2009, 11:48 PM']Ben,

It's always good when a supplier who has been criticised takes the trouble to come here and post in a reasonable and constructive fashion, but it also tends to draw a response.

I'll remain reasonable, too, but constructive will probably be beyond me.

On Simone's recommendation I decided to give your shop a try for selling my 1974 Rickenbacker 4001 Fretless. I brought it into your shop on Saturday afternoon. The salesman hummed and hawed, tried to persuade me it was a '75 before I stone-walled him into looking it up (which took nearly 30 seconds) and he had to agree it was a 1974, then explained how the '74 models were much less sought after than the '73.

After five minutes of this nonsense he put a price on it - £1695. You have a 1974 Rickenbacker 4001 (JetGlo) in similar condition in the corner at the moment. The price tag says £1995. Hmm. Apparently ultra-rare fretless Ric's are worth 15% less than standard basses at V&R.

I asked him how much of the £1695 would find its way back to me. He told me I would get about £1000. I mentioned to him what I do for a living (Finance Director) and then asked him to explain where the £695 had gone.

Well, there's the VAT of course. On a £1695 sale that's just over £200. The other £500 odd?

Ah well, there's the cash he's going to tie up in a slow-moving item. What cash? This is a consignment deal. Ah, he said, I'd forgotten that.

The libel laws being what they are, I'll refrain from telling you what I thought of your salesman and his ludicrous patter.

I simply picked up the Ric and strolled across the road to Wunjo's. They also valued the bass at £1695 (no input from me about V&R, I should add) despite being known as a significantly cheaper shop than you. They take 20% of the sale value. If the bass sells at £1695 then I'll get £1350. I have every expectation that the bass will actually sell at nearer £1500 and I'll end up with £1200.

If you'd like to see my bass, it's the one in the window. Brian's a nice guy. I'm sure he'll let you play with it.

Have a good recession.[/quote]

Ben works at the bath V&R.

I have my own bad experiences at both V&R's when it comes to valueing equipment. Such as trying to fob off non original Basses/guitars as original. A certain freind of mine bought a Semi electric from the London store, which said it was an original (I think it was some sort of gretsch) It was a very nice playing instrument. Took it to a freind of mine who runs a vintage guitar shop who proved that it was actually a very well made reissue of the said guitar.

The guy took the guitar back to V&R they essentially stone walled him and refused to take it back. This wasent some piddly 1-2K either.

Rob.

[99ster]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='439891' date='Mar 19 2009, 11:36 PM']Fair play to Vintage Ben for sticking his head above the parapet.[/quote]

Fair play indeed - but that doesn't change the fact that their prices are comically high - let's just take one example from their bass selection:
[url="http://www.vintageandrareguitars.com/web/our-catalogue/Fender/Electric-Basses/item/3821"]this 'interesting' example of a Fender P bass[/url] - £1,295.00 for a 1977 battered P bass that some muppet had made an atrocious hack job of sticking a repro jazz pickup in + a badass bridge. "A lot of bass for the money". They are joking right? Apparently not, as some poor fool was convinced by the 'experts' at V&R that this chopped up bass was a great investment & really was worth £1,295.00 of his hard earned money.
Their whole business model is based on supplying the 'good stuff' i.e. really nice top end vintage instruments to serious collectors & celeb players with big budgets - then knocking out junk like that P bass to the gullible. They know full well that anyone who knows their stuff about vintage guitars will never buy from them. And fair play to them for that as well - it's a greedy cynical business that they're in - so good luck to them & their 100% mark-up... But don't then expect to come & post on here acting like you only have our best interests at heart - sorry sunshine that ain't gonna wash.

[quote name='vintage_ben' post='439856' date='Mar 19 2009, 10:57 PM']Pop in and Say hi - you never know I might be playing the Entwistle stack knob[/quote]

By the way - did you tell John Ludlow you & your mates would be having fun playing around in the showroom with his £30K Entwistle Jazz that you have on consignment? No - I bet you didn't. Shall I tell him for you?

[Buzz]

Er, crikey, when did the masses of basschat become so [i]bitchy[/i] towards people. Bloody hell.

[birdy]

I bought my 65 Jazz from V&R in Bath and was very happy with the service I received and met Ben.

I probably could have bought it for 15% cheaper on the 'street' but I have the assurance of knowing it is all original and its provenance is correct.

I used them for the same reasons you may buy a Porsche from a reputable dealer as opposed to some guy in the paper.

Steve

[john_the_bass]

[quote name='Buzz' post='439930' date='Mar 20 2009, 12:24 AM']Er, crikey, when did the masses of basschat become so [i]bitchy[/i] towards people. Bloody hell.[/quote]

Sometime around when Noah felt the first drop of rain.

[vintage_ben]

Interesting comments, clearly many have issues with the shop and there seem to be a mix of constructive and unconstructive ones. Giving the weight to the later, I'm removing my post for risk of further inflaming the situation.

To the protagonists I'd say this.

With regards the stack knob. Yes instruments are played when required by staff, as well as played by potential customers. I take offence at the accusation of 'playing around'. You'll also be aware this bass no longer belongs to the aforesaid owner. I'm sorry this comment wasn't taken as the humorous response to an above post it was meant to be.

The '77 P-bass was a great playing and sounding bass despite the issues it had. The guy who bought it was extremely happy with it. This bass would not be an investment and was not sold as so.

I have never knowingly sold a bass as non-original, but clearly mistakes can happen. Some instruments sell better in certain shops than others hence the price discrepancy. We have a very hard time selling fretless basses perhaps? 73' 4001s are checkerboard bound, 74s aren't? But I can't speak for my colleagues or the London shop.

The intention of my post was to offer my own personal perspective on this topic. I neither represent the views of my colleagues, nor the business. Of course I am fully aware that some people will continue to consider V and R as 'overpriced', 'selling dodgy stuff' and nothing I say will change that. We all have bad customer service from time to time, as a sales person I do my very best to stop this from happening.

As I said, I've no doubt met some of you before; hopefully I'll meet you again... but not playing any of our high-end guitars.

Edited March 20, 2009 by vintage_ben

[wateroftyne]

Hmmm....

[harvey1-8]

I don't mind Vintage and Rare, they offer a good service to a particular part of market. In the past I've thought of it like this: just because I drive a car doesn't mean i can afford or want a vintage Bentley, sure it would be nice but there's no way i can afford it. I apply this to the basses and guitars I buy.

EDIT:
As for selling your bass via shops I think you have to take into account one of the things you pay for is exposure, how many people walk into V&R knowing that there might be something special in there? I know I have in the past and will do again. It's like eBay, sure the fees are high, but your listing has the potential to be viewed by millions of people. Only shops like V&R have the ability to filter that down to those who can afford the asking price. That, im my opinion, is one of their main advantages and one of the things the shop takes a cut for.

Edited March 20, 2009 by alexharvay

[bumfrog]

I've always found most the stuff on denmark st to be overpriced, but I expect that because of what and where it is. I do love looking around, but do have a chuckle at some of the prices, but I think fair play, as most of the people I see playing the stuff in those shops are all suits who play for a bedroom style hobby who can afford to spend £1500 on a whim for a nice guitar.

Horses for courses really.

The only thing that bothers me is the attitude of *some* of the staff in the shops. Given I was interested in buying a new bass, I asked if they stocked X bass, and all I got back was "no". No sign that they wanted to try and help me chose anything different, or anything like that.

[bassaussie]

I dealt with V&R some years back. The range of instruments is very impressive. As for the staff, always found they were quite helpful, and reasonably knowedgable provided you got one of the experienced staff members. I also had my dealings with a few less experienced staff members, who seemed more than happy to pass off their advice as expert opinion, when I in fact knew they were incorrect. I find that happens a lot more in basses than guitars, as vintage basses is probably an area that less people become expert in. Anyway, as said above, it's the sort of place to go to when you know exactly what you want, and don't really care how much the price tag is.

However, I then noticed the comments above about the consignment sales they do, and how they structure their commission. It seems things haven't changed much. I tried selling a bass though them, and rather than give a specific percentage for the commission, they simply plucked a number out of the air. I think the figures were similar to those mentioned by Happy Jack. The bass would sell for around £1600, and I'd get £1100. I asked them how they arrived at that figure, and it was similar BS about a difficult item to sell etc etc. The bass in question was a refinished late 60s Precision!!! Sure, they don't fly out the door, but I'd say it's hardly a difficult item to sell as far as vintage guitars and basses go!!

Thinking about it now, it seems V&R want their cake and eat it too in relation to consignment sales. In the past, the way I viewed selling a bass or guitar through a store was like this. If I wanted to sell the bass outright, then I had to accept a lower value as the risk was now placed on the store. If I sold it on consignment, I got a higher return, but I had to wait for the bass the sell to get my money. It seems V&R use a third category, where they get a higher percentage, but don't accept the risk of an outright purchase.

[s_u_y_*]

[quote name='vegas_hooker' post='203037' date='May 20 2008, 04:30 PM']Last time I was in there, some 'suit' walked in, pointed at a les paul custom and paid about £1400.00 without flinching.


It was for his kid!!!!!![/quote]

That's obscene! Someone's probably gonna grow up to be a spoilt brat.

It doesn't matter if you earn £10,000 a year or £100,000. Any responsible parent has to teach his or her children values, and that includes the value of money!

[rjb]

The folk who can afford to pay those prices probably know they're paying over the mark, but are happy to pay up because they can get their hands on what they want without hunting around and waiting for the right deal to turn up.

I paid a little over the mark for my second hand Thumb NT in a shop. I was sold because it was made from a particularly nice piece of bubinga (far better than the example on Warwick's site) and I could have it right there and then.

Impatience can be a real earner!

Having said that, London in general is expensive for buying instruments. You get a far better deal in Manchester or Glasgow where shop rents are likely cheaper.

[Shaggy]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='439904' date='Mar 19 2009, 11:48 PM']I decided to give your shop a try for selling my 1974 Rickenbacker 4001 Fretless. I brought it into your shop on Saturday afternoon. The salesman hummed and hawed, tried to persuade me it was a '75 before I stone-walled him into looking it up (which took nearly 30 seconds) and he had to agree it was a 1974, then explained how the '74 models were much less sought after than the '73.[/quote]


[b]Noooooooooo![/b] I was still hoping to buy that off you one of these days - I'm only about £1450 short.......

BTW it's only the early '73's that have the chequerboard binding / full width sparly inlays.

[SJA]

V&R= Veblen & Rip-off?

[The Funk]

I can't see Vintage Ben's original post now. Like I said before, I like the place (in London).

[Twigman]

[quote name='The Funk' post='440133' date='Mar 20 2009, 11:31 AM']I can't see Vintage Ben's original post now. Like I said before, I like the place (in London).[/quote]
Me neither

Obviously embarrassed and deleted it.

[birdy]

[quote name='Twigman' post='440148' date='Mar 20 2009, 11:44 AM']Me neither

Obviously embarrassed and deleted it.[/quote]

If you read the post that does remain he explains it.

"Interesting comments, clearly many have issues with the shop and there seem to be a mix of constructive and unconstructive ones. Giving the weight to the later, I'm removing my post for risk of further inflaming the situation. "

If you think V&R are overpriced then don't buy from them. simple.

[harvey1-8]

[quote name='vintage_ben' post='439991' date='Mar 20 2009, 08:36 AM']Interesting comments, clearly many have issues with the shop and there seem to be a mix of constructive and unconstructive ones. Giving the weight to the later, I'm removing my post for risk of further inflaming the situation.[/quote]

That's why you can't see his post.

EDIT: beat me too it!

Edited March 20, 2009 by alexharvay

[Telebass]

V&R cater to a particular clientele, to whom the premium prices are of little or no concern. That's their business model, and as they are still around in these hard times, they are doing something right. I personally think it's all a bit overblown, but then I'm well known on here for generally pooh-poohing the vintage thing anyway.
Good luck to them! As a (former) guitar shop salesman, I am as aware as Ben that you simply cannot please everyone, no matter what you do.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='s_u_y_*' post='440042' date='Mar 20 2009, 09:53 AM']That's obscene! Someone's probably gonna grow up to be a spoilt brat.

It doesn't matter if you earn £10,000 a year or £100,000. Any responsible parent has to teach his or her children values, and that includes the value of money![/quote]

Probably. If he spent that on a guitar from V and R, he bought a cheapie.

I don't get why people have such hangups over things like this. If you don't want to buy, don't. If you do want to buy, do. If you can't afford to buy, that's life... but don't despise those that can... otherwise you'll become very twisted and jealous. Simple really... it's all about supply and demand. If there is a demand for vintage instruments... and people are prepared to pay over the odds... then so be it.

Personally, I like buying stuff without crud encrusted throughout the fingerboard. Call it mojo, call it what you like. I call it somebody else's grime.

Edited March 20, 2009 by EBS_freak

[john_the_bass]

[quote name='rjb' post='440061' date='Mar 20 2009, 10:10 AM']Having said that, London in general is expensive for buying instruments. You get a far better deal in Manchester or Glasgow where shop rents are likely cheaper.[/quote]

Depends which shops you go in - Music Ground operate in Manchester as well owning how many shops on Denmark St and elsewhere (Leeds??) and they seem to have a fairly optimistic pricing policy. Speaking of Music Ground, anybody know if there is any truth in this that I found on another forum? Must stress this is a rumour.

[quote]Its seems that there are rumours about that the boys in blue have raided the Music Ground shop and warehouse. Has anyone heard anything else about this situation???[/quote]


[quote name='birdy' post='440161' date='Mar 20 2009, 11:53 AM']If you think V&R are overpriced then don't buy from them. simple.[/quote]

I think that's the best philosphy - remember that when you buy from a dealer, you are to a degree buying into that dealer's expertise.
I can't say how much value is in that for me, but to some people it's priceless.

[skankdelvar]

My only experience of V&R was when I unloaded a '69 Melody Maker on them 4 years ago. It's not a popular model, was missing the original pot knobs, wang bar and scratchplate and I didn't expect a great price. Nevertheless, their's was the best price on the street at £350 cash. Sigh.

That said, there was none of this 'minute scrutiny', otherwise they'd have had the plate off and spotted the neat and huge mahogany insert where the chiselled out humbucker rout used to be.

Vintage guitars is 99% a mug's game, because most of the value lies in the buyer's romanticized perceptions, not in the intrinsic quality of the instrument. On the whole, vintage axes play and sound no better than modern equivalents.

What's worse, you can never gig them for fear of theft, so most end up gathering dust.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='440593' date='Mar 20 2009, 08:04 PM']What's worse, you can never gig them for fear of theft, so most end up gathering dust.[/quote]

I'm off to see a band tonight, and the bass player will be totin' his Jazz that he bought new back in '63.

Bosshog of these parts regularly gigs his '66 J.

Mine go out the house too.. that's why I bought them.

I never understood the 'retirement' philosophy.. they're for playing.