Vintage And Rare Guitars

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Clive Thorne' post='444592' date='Mar 25 2009, 12:34 AM']No debate required, everyone knows that British electricity is the best in the world.[/quote]

I've got a soft spot for New Zealand's electricity. Got a certain zing about it.

[YouMa]

[quote name='evilLordJuju' post='444193' date='Mar 24 2009, 08:58 PM']It isn't how old the bass per se... A lot of basses built in the past were made with the fashion of the day in mind. 50s and early 60s basses were built to sound a bit like uprights - a nice thumpy sound. Pickups positions, mutes, number of windings in a pickup, choice of woods and construction etc.... (i'm talking mostly about Gibson here - but i'm sure these examples fit other brands to varying extents)

Plus in 1953, a lump of wood from a 400 year old mahogany tree was a lot more likely (and wood harvested from an old tree has different grain characteristics, and sonic qualities). A skilled builder (such as the 50s and 60s Gibson employees) could do things like tap a top and ascertain something about how it resonates, and whether it need carving more. How many people have that skill today?

Today, really ancient trees tend not to be used, pickups have all drifted towards the bridge. Bass manufacturers don't necessarily use the same species woods, and pickup designs tend to favour a different sound. Nobody wants to sound like a thumpy double bass.

The actual design, woods, and components of a vintage bass define it's sound. Had someone in 1955 built a bubinga bass with pickups right up against the bridge, i'm sure they would not have a particularly vintage sounding bass, even at 50 years old.[/quote]

Rubbish,i like vintage guitars and a lot of the standards were better etc,but most of the early "electronics" employees were mrs bloggs from down the road in fullerton. And i know that the there was no holy grail search for woods,the guy was just trying to sell a decent guitar that would rival a hollow body. Wood from old trees is still available cheap as chips.

Edited March 25, 2009 by YouMa

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='YouMa' post='444598' date='Mar 25 2009, 12:40 AM']Rubbish,i like vintage guitars and a lot of the standards were better etc,but most of the early "electronics" employees were mrs bloggs from down the road in fullerton. And i know that the there was no holy grail search for woods,the guy was just trying to sell a decent guitar that would rival a hollow body.[/quote]


Truth. In fact, isn't it Jimmy Page who tries to buy up all the Marshall amps wired by Doris or something like that? I can't quite remember but I seem to recall something like that....

[YouMa]

Im sure if hendrix or page had been given a "bad" later strat or les paul they would have still ripped the tits off the stoned out people in the crowd.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='YouMa' post='444603' date='Mar 25 2009, 12:52 AM']Im sure if hendrix or page had been given a "bad" later strat or les paul they would have still ripped the tits off the stoned out people in the crowd.[/quote]


That sounds painful...

[YouMa]

Agreed, it does a bit,i should have said blown there minds.

[evilLordJuju]

[quote name='YouMa' post='444598' date='Mar 25 2009, 12:40 AM']Rubbish,i like vintage guitars and a lot of the standards were better etc,but most of the early "electronics" employees were mrs bloggs from down the road in fullerton. And i know that the there was no holy grail search for woods,the guy was just trying to sell a decent guitar that would rival a hollow body. Wood from old trees is still available cheap as chips.[/quote]


How about reading what I wrote before completely dismissing my post?

Did I mention any electronics employees? Did I even mention Fullerton or Fender?
I specifically mention Gibson. I talked about tapping tops, and listening to them. A bit different from winding a pickup.
With regard woods i'm mostly talking about rosewood and mahogany (what Gibson basses were made of), not pine, or whatever they build Fenders out of . Ancient South American rainforests were cut down, and used as a matter of course in the 50s. I'm not 100% sure of the legal situation now, but you can't legally buy equivalent wood 'as cheap as chips' as you claim - if at all.

Gibson do get sustainably collected mahogany still - but this isn't necessarily the wood they would have got 50 years ago, and if it is, it will be in much smaller quantities, and used on only a few top end guitars.
[url="http://www.rainforest-alliance.org/profiles/documents/gibson_profile.pdf"]http://www.rainforest-alliance.org/profile...son_profile.pdf[/url]

And you missed the point further too - my main point was about design - about the use of mutes, pickup placement, etc etc. It may not have changed much on some basses - but, for example, a 1963 Thunderbird is a very different bass to a 2009 Thunderbird.

[YouMa]

Sorry i didnt realise i was talking to gibson employee. You seem to know a lot about peoples wood. fnarr,sounds a bit aspergers to me.

Edited March 25, 2009 by YouMa

[Telebass]

I'm one of they who think the vintage thing is pure nonsense. Talking Fender here, they weren't at [i]any[/i] time in their past, built better than they are now. A lot of the jobs done by hand then are still done by hand now. Sometimes still by the same people. I've owned what would would now be vintage Fender basses, and, without any doubt, my Mexican P is the equal of any of them. My Japanese 51RI smokes the lot. I had a 68 Jazz for a while. It was a complete POS. Followed that with a 69 Telecaster Bass. Totally awesome. Yet the 51RI is better still. And most certainly better built.
The one nice thing about some, repeat SOME vintage basses, is that they do feel nice to play. They're nicely worn in. But most decent instruments will feel this way after three hundred gigs or so!
There's also a reason you find really clean vintage stuff sometimes - they were often dogs, and rarely got played.
Buy a modern instrument with confidence, even (or especially?) Fenders. There's nowt whatever wrong with them, and it makes zero sense to fork out megabucks.

Edited March 25, 2009 by Telebass

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Telebass' post='445439' date='Mar 25 2009, 09:20 PM']Buy a modern instrument with confidence, even (or especially?) Fenders. There's nowt whatever wrong with them, and it makes zero sense to fork out megabucks.[/quote]

Dang! And you were doing so well until then.

Regrettably, in some situations it DOES make sense to fork out megabucks, especially if you do it sensibly and get your timing right.

Buy a brand-new Fender today, even a US-made jobbie complete with the embarassing little sticker on the scratchplate, and its value drops by between 10% and 30% as you carry it proudly out of the shop.

Buy a 1964 Jazz today (especially in today's market with prices suddenly down and haggling effective) and you'll sell it in 10 years for WAY more than you paid for it.

In general though, I entirely agree with you. I've owned plenty of vintage instruments (still do, actually). My main players are a pair of Laklands, neither of them as much as five years old.

[Stag]

I thought id best come back and add something to this thread since I started it... nearly a year ago!

To cut a long (and sad) story short I was bequeathed some cash in an inheritance. I remembered my little trip to Denmark St. I also knew I still wanted an EB3, because I love Jack Bruce (Yes, I know his classic EB tone is fairly useless in 85% of gigging environments, but we are talking JACK BRUCE here). As we all know, they dont necessarily grow on trees, and certainly not on any trees here in Norfolk. So I decided to bite the bullet and get on a train to Laaahnndaaahhn for a day of beer and bass.

Went to every shop on Denmark Street - im not going to name names of places that I didnt think were worth visiting again (you all know which one/s they are anyway), more praise the places I did like. The two places that stuck out were Wunjos & V&R, both staffed by very pleasant and helpful people who were happy to let me have a tinkle on anything I fancied. I tried an EB3 out in V&R and yes, I could get "that" moving mud sound but then noticed an old 72' Les Paul Bass. Had a go on that and was instantly in love. The JB sound can be nailed, as can numerous other tones due to the amount of controls you can fiddle with. With the extra "oddity" factor it had sold itself to me, so I bought it. There was one in Wunjo as well in not as good nick, although I think someone has bought their one now. My new (old) bass did need a setup, which they were happy to do at a later date FOC, and chucked a brand new case in for it. I also didnt pay the advertised price on the ticket for the bass. So, basically, I was extremely happy with buying from them for perhaps a tad more than the eBay price (not that they turn up much) and will do so again if I ever want something else of the same ilk. In fact, I was so impressed with the service (both pre and post sale) that I emailed them a little thank you letter, which I dont do very often! Only thing I would say is that it would probably save them some time in the long run to get their guitars set up better before sticking them out for people to play - a couple that I tried could have done with some tinkering with trussrod / bridge IMHO - would make their guitars more attractive for sale and saves getting them setup later.

As for the vintage v new argument - im happy with either. When I want / need a 5 string, ill almost certainly buy a new one. For now, I like the vintage sound and "mojo" you get from older basses, plus the stuff I do in the band im in is kinda suited to that sound. And I always use either my 82' Ric or the LP bass at gigs - as a previous poster stated, they are for playing! Sure, you may damage them, but that's why they already have mojo-marks... Im more worried about such things getting nicked than damaged, so I guard my basses quite jealously before and after the gig... having said that id be the same about a "new" bass as well. Being a vintage bass doesnt necessarily make it more "nickable", as to the untrained non-expert eye any guitar is worth nicking if its in a position to be thieved - as one of my chums sadly found out when his Warwick Rockbass (which was a lovely little player) got pinched out of his car recently. I guess its just the sheer value of what you may lose that is the issue. Mind you, if you had your new £2000+ Wal or similar nicked, you'd be looking at a similar loss if it got thieved (and also the loss of your sanity and cheery disposition).

[i]deep breath[/i]

I think thats my longest post ever? Best take a week off posting now, im spent.

Edited March 25, 2009 by Stag

[4000]

[quote name='Telebass' post='445439' date='Mar 25 2009, 09:20 PM']I'm one of they who think the vintage thing is pure nonsense. Talking Fender here, they weren't at [i]any[/i] time in their past, built better than they are now. A lot of the jobs done by hand then are still done by hand now. Sometimes still by the same people. I've owned what would would now be vintage Fender basses, and, without any doubt, my Mexican P is the equal of any of them. My Japanese 51RI smokes the lot. I had a 68 Jazz for a while. It was a complete POS. Followed that with a 69 Telecaster Bass. Totally awesome. Yet the 51RI is better still. And most certainly better built.
The one nice thing about some, repeat SOME vintage basses, is that they do feel nice to play. They're nicely worn in. But most decent instruments will feel this way after three hundred gigs or so!
There's also a reason you find really clean vintage stuff sometimes - they were often dogs, and rarely got played.
Buy a modern instrument with confidence, even (or especially?) Fenders. There's nowt whatever wrong with them, and it makes zero sense to fork out megabucks.[/quote]

I certainly don't think all vintage guitars are better (I've played some absolute dogs) but what I do know is that for my purposes my 1972 Rick 4001 smokes any later Rick I've ever played in terms of tone. As ever, YMMV.

[Telebass]

[quote name='4000' post='446296' date='Mar 26 2009, 06:39 PM']I certainly don't think all vintage guitars are better (I've played some absolute dogs) but what I do know is that for my purposes my 1972 Rick 4001 smokes any later Rick I've ever played in terms of tone. As ever, YMMV.[/quote]

Oh, entirely agree with that.

If one wants to have these things as investments, fair enough. Or maybe not? If I still had my first precision, it would be worth, allowing for inflation, about what I paid for it, ie about 250 squids x 33 years. In other words, it's 'worth' not a bit extra. It would be great to be still gigging it though, because it was a good'n. But no better than what I currently have. Certainly not worth seeking out especially, though.

Quite apart from all this, I simply like instruments to be 'my own', therefore, I tend to buy new.. The 51RI I got from Mickeyboro of this parish was just about unplayed, so it's now 'my own' despite being 10 years old when I got it.

It's simply a matter of taste. Vintage isn't better, or worse. Just taste. The investment side of it will, IMHO, come to nothing eventually. Or even pretty soon, if the current economic climate gets much gloomier...

[guzzibass]

Wild Guitars in Highgate has got a tasty '66 Jazz and an early '70s Ricky. Proper guitar shop.

[Shaggy]

[quote name='guzzibass' post='446607' date='Mar 26 2009, 10:27 PM']Wild Guitars in Highgate has got a tasty '66 Jazz and an early '70s Ricky. Proper guitar shop. [/quote]
You used to see tasty stuff like that in your average high st music shop, now with ebay, specialists like V&R (and evil bass forums) and anything over 10yrs old being "classic" (ie; bung another zero at the end of the price) they hardly ever have second hand and tends to be p/x-ed starter-bass fodder if they do. Shame

[Guest sonny-d]

I really think that some you should go back and read part 6 of the introduction which outlines the conduct and behaviour of members on this forum. I find a lot of the things said on these pages offensive, accusatory, and even liabelous. Some of you seem to think that your status outside of this gives you the right to slag off anyone and everyone without any real understanding of the situation at hand. Some of you don't even have a clue what you are talking about. If you spent just half the time you do writing these scathing reports on shops and websites etc as you do on actually playing bass then maybe you wouldnt be so frustrated. I find it childish, futile and pathetic that some of you feel the need to be so anally retentive. To me this sums up everything depressing and tragic about these so-called forums. If this the way you carry on behind peoples' backs then it's no wonder that YOU are the ones who get a reputation for being difficult. Its pathetic and god help anyone who has to deal with you.

[pete.young]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='443797' date='Mar 24 2009, 03:19 PM']American amps win for me I am afraid...[/quote]

Says EBS_freak. LOL!

[pete.young]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='442828' date='Mar 23 2009, 07:30 PM']There's also some vintage German electricity stored on the sea-bed at Scapa Flow.

Not a lot of people know that.[/quote]

Any more on this Jack? I've made an extensive survey of the inside of most of those wrecks and not found anything with Glockenclang written on it yet!

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='sonny-d' post='452019' date='Apr 1 2009, 10:42 PM']I really think that some you should go back and read part 6 of the introduction which outlines the conduct and behaviour of members on this forum. I find a lot of the things said on these pages offensive, accusatory, and even liabelous. Some of you seem to think that your status outside of this gives you the right to slag off anyone and everyone without any real understanding of the situation at hand. Some of you don't even have a clue what you are talking about. If you spent just half the time you do writing these scathing reports on shops and websites etc as you do on actually playing bass then maybe you wouldnt be so frustrated. I find it childish, futile and pathetic that some of you feel the need to be so anally retentive. To me this sums up everything depressing and tragic about these so-called forums. If this the way you carry on behind peoples' backs then it's no wonder that YOU are the ones who get a reputation for being difficult. Its pathetic and god help anyone who has to deal with you.[/quote]

A point well made... so why did you bother joining?

I think you'll find that the point of forums is that sad deluded people without real lives can talk utter b*ll*cks 'behind people's backs' (though how you manage to do that whilst openly posting on a public forum, I fail to comprehend).

In summary you don't have to deal with people on here... you can simply extricate yourself and go elsewhere! That isn't how I normally welcome people but it is how I react to individuals who come on and start slating all and sundry with less than an hour as a member; you'll find that to slate all and sundry you have to be a member for at least 2 hours.

[pete.young]

[quote name='sonny-d' post='452019' date='Apr 1 2009, 10:42 PM']I really think that some you should go back and read part 6 of the introduction which outlines the conduct and behaviour of members on this forum. I find a lot of the things said on these pages offensive, accusatory, and even liabelous. Some of you seem to think that your status outside of this gives you the right to slag off anyone and everyone without any real understanding of the situation at hand. Some of you don't even have a clue what you are talking about. If you spent just half the time you do writing these scathing reports on shops and websites etc as you do on actually playing bass then maybe you wouldnt be so frustrated. I find it childish, futile and pathetic that some of you feel the need to be so anally retentive. To me this sums up everything depressing and tragic about these so-called forums. If this the way you carry on behind peoples' backs then it's no wonder that YOU are the ones who get a reputation for being difficult. Its pathetic and god help anyone who has to deal with you.[/quote]

There can't be too many places in Denmark St who would employ someone who is clearly intelligent, articulate and focussed on providing excellent customer service. Although telling your customers that they are full of sh*t may be seen as overstepping the mark more than somewhat.

Wrong we may be, but WE are the ones who spend the hard-earned money which keeps the music shops in Denmark St and elsewhere afloat in these current times of hardship, so be prepared to live up to expectations however unreasonable if you want to stay in business.

[deaver]

[quote name='sonny-d' post='452019' date='Apr 1 2009, 10:42 PM']accusatory, and even liabelous[/quote]

I used to have a girlfriend called Lia Belous

Edited April 1, 2009 by deaver

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='deaver' post='452058' date='Apr 1 2009, 11:13 PM']I used to have a girlfriend called Lia Belous[/quote]

I knew a Conny Lingus... does that count?

[deaver]

[quote name='deaver' post='452058' date='Apr 1 2009, 11:13 PM']I used to have a girlfriend called Lia Belous[/quote]


[quote name='warwickhunt' post='452061' date='Apr 1 2009, 11:18 PM']I knew a Conny Lingus... does that count?[/quote]


I've forgotten my own punchline...mixture of Bell's and another bloody virus. Actually, just remembered something my first two girlfriends were called Batty and Wilde, they should have got together and done the Northern working mans club circuit in the 80's

[Musky]

[quote name='sonny-d' post='452019' date='Apr 1 2009, 10:42 PM']I really think that some you should go back and read part 6 of the introduction which outlines the conduct and behaviour of members on this forum. I find a lot of the things said on these pages offensive, accusatory, and even liabelous. Some of you seem to think that your status outside of this gives you the right to slag off anyone and everyone without any real understanding of the situation at hand. Some of you don't even have a clue what you are talking about. If you spent just half the time you do writing these scathing reports on shops and websites etc as you do on actually playing bass then maybe you wouldnt be so frustrated. I find it childish, futile and pathetic that some of you feel the need to be so anally retentive. To me this sums up everything depressing and tragic about these so-called forums. If this the way you carry on behind peoples' backs then it's no wonder that YOU are the ones who get a reputation for being difficult. Its pathetic and god help anyone who has to deal with you.[/quote]

Some people's opinions on V&R maybe particularly harsh, but they are also balanced with others that paint a more rosy picture. That's in the nature of a forum - people tend to give their opinions, and in this particular thread seem mostly based on first hand experience. If you disagree you might like to give your reasons for doing so, but to slate people for relating their own experiences and feelings on the matter appears rather petulant.

I might well be mistaken, but you come over as having a personal interest in V&R. If so it might be as well to bear in mind that these opinions are likely to be shared by others who have never even heard of this forum. Some businesses actually like and encourage feedback in the marketplace, and even attempt to address any negative concerns. Whether or not you are connected to V&R, you're not really doing them any favours by coming across as someone who would rather silence critics than address customers' concerns.

[josh3184]

I wish he had said all that behind my back, I would feel much better