Virgin 5 string.....

[aende]

So, I had a play on a 5 string bass last night, Ibanez Soundgear variant, and I have a few queries;

1, the low 'B' aside growling the sound up, what can it actually be used for? Percussion? Does anyone retune it to a more useable frequency?
2, String spacing - weird, I tried going between 4 and 5 string bases and it was messy to say the least.
3, Amps and cabs; I was running the 5 string through a 250w head and 210 cab and man, the cab was on the limit with the low 'B' - any tips?

The bass did not have much 'tone' to it - so, are the pickups the all important thing in a 5 string bass - I think it was an Ibanez Soundgear 200 series - active with humbuckers.

Just a few thoughts; I quite like the idea, but it was a bit weird to play. Any ideas or thoughts on playing it more musically would be appreciated - I am here to learn!

[BigRedX]

Sounds like a cheap bass, badly set up. IMO you can only make an informed decision about 5-string basses when you have played a decent one (£1000+) which has been set up to suit your playing style.

[aende]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1359714475' post='1959094']
Sounds like a cheap bass, badly set up. IMO you can only make an informed decision about 5-string basses when you have played a decent one (£1000+) which has been set up to suit your playing style.
[/quote]

I was not really asking about the bass specifically, as it was not mine and I don't intend to buy or play it. I don't have access to £1000 pieces of musical kit as with most people and I am not looking to compare it to anything anyway...

But any tips on what you can do with the low 'b' musically - Amp and cab preferences and settings or any tricks that allow you to move between 4 and 5 string would be appreciated.

[geoffbyrne]

I play all 5ers (I have 3) and for me, it's not really about the Low B (I often use the low D, but rarely go below) - it's more about the technique of playing [i]across[/i] the fretboard rather than up & down it. It enables me to figure out a way to play a song & then, if the key needs changed, it's easy to simply move that pattern up or down the fretboard.

String spacing on a 5 or 6 is always going to be narrower than on a 4 - you have to deal with it or go back to 4s. I have a fairly small hand and I don't have fingers like sausages so that helps.

Certainly, more amplification would help you. As you probably know, each octave you drop demands twice the power to maintain the same volume, so the low B needs a fair bit of power and suitable drivers to cope.

G.

[BigRedX]

It might sound trite, but if you need to ask, then you probably don't need a 5-string.

On a good 5-string bass the B is playable all the way up the neck. Depending on how you play it may give you access to more notes with less hand movement. It's not just about those 5 extra notes below E.

[aende]

Okay - I can see the sense in a wider range of note/tone for less movement, I get that.

I am not thinking of buying a 5 string at all, I thought it was fun to try it; but I think that 4 is enough for me, my ability and my amplification. I may borrow it again to try some stuff on.

The extra power for the low end could be a problem......500W and 2 x 210 cabs. I think the low b will kill the cabs.

[MrTaff]

I've never treated the B any different, pretty much play it the same as an E string on a 4, lots of open notes & runs up and down the string.

The string spacing is something you get used to, Ibanez basses already have rather narrow string spacing which makes the jump harder.

I use a lh1000 & either a 410 or 2 410's, both sound fine even tuned down to ADGCF.

[BigRedX]

You don't necessarily need more power and bigger cabs. While my big rig is a 4x10 and 2x10, depending on the gig I run all sorts of combinations down to 2x10 or a 1x12+1x6 on their own without any problems.

A decent amp and 2x10 cab should be fine unless you have a very loud drummer.

[RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE]

I find that with 5 strings , after wondering how it sounds "wrong" on a four a song you've been trying to learn (a cover song for example,)just appears. "right" all of a sudden.
Eventually , you realise that the more sparingly you go lower than 5th fret on b string , the more confident you become of your new instrument.
After a while , you will hardly think about the difference between 4&5

Edited February 1, 2013 by RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE

[Jellyfish]

The low B is usable, you just need to know how to use it! It adds a lot of flexibility when it comes to playing bass lines at the very least. But a lot of cheaper 5-string basses can have pretty lacking B strings.

The lower end Ibanez's can be pretty lacking and usually have a pretty 'floppy' B string. Or at least I found that that was the way with the SR505 I played. I then played the SR Prestige I now own and am still blown away by how good the B string is. As far as string spacing goes, the SR have pretty tight spacing (the tightest I've seen in the £200-£600 price bracket) but a lot of people love it like that, including me . And as far as the amp and cab goes... My little BH250 and Genz Benz 112 sounds monstrous!

Don't let one bad experience put you off though, it took me a lot of tries before I fell for a 5 string and was a cheap Ibanez BTB that started the ball rolling for me.

[Silvia Bluejay]

[quote name='geoffbyrne' timestamp='1359715079' post='1959105']
I play all 5ers (I have 3) and for me, it's not really about the Low B (I often use the low D, but rarely go below) - it's more about the technique of playing [i]across[/i] the fretboard rather than up & down it. It enables me to figure out a way to play a song & then, if the key needs changed, it's easy to simply move that pattern up or down the fretboard.

String spacing on a 5 or 6 is always going to be narrower than on a 4 - you have to deal with it or go back to 4s. I have a fairly small hand and I don't have fingers like sausages so that helps.

Certainly, more amplification would help you. As you probably know, each octave you drop demands twice the power to maintain the same volume, so the low B needs a fair bit of power and suitable drivers to cope.

G.
[/quote]

This.

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='aende' timestamp='1359713806' post='1959079']
So, I had a play on a 5 string bass last night, Ibanez Soundgear variant, and I have a few queries;

1, the low 'B' aside growling the sound up, what can it actually be used for? Percussion? Does anyone retune it to a more useable frequency?
2, String spacing - weird, I tried going between 4 and 5 string bases and it was messy to say the least.
3, Amps and cabs; I was running the 5 string through a 250w head and 210 cab and man, the cab was on the limit with the low 'B' - any tips?

The bass did not have much 'tone' to it - so, are the pickups the all important thing in a 5 string bass

Just a few thoughts; I quite like the idea, but it was a bit weird to play.
[/quote]

1) The Low "B" string can be used just like any of the other, with most of the techniques that can be applied to them, but, er.. Lower in pitch

2) The difference in feel is something that can be overcome with habituation. Then it's a natural transition in both directions

3) Most average cabinets struggle to reproduce the fundamental frequency of "E1" (41Hz), let alone "B0" (32Hz)
This does cause issues in terms of headroom for partnering amps. Playing at a level that does not unduly stress the amp/cab could give a more accurate impression of the instrument's sound

4) It's fair to say that it's easier to make a pick-up that can transduce such a low frequency than it is to make a loudspeaker system that can reproduce it!

5) IMO, a five string bass ought to be a "complete" instrument. Not a bass which has a B string that sounds different to the other 4. How that is arrived at is immaterial- be it a fresh design or a modification of a 4 String design. As long as all the strings sound "of a piece" and the resultant tone is acceptable to you, then it's doing its job.
Trying lots of fivers will give you a thorough understanding of their respective strengths and weaknesses, as well as what you do and don't like.

How you tune it and how you play it are entirely up to you, though, for example, some grunge bands de-tuned to "D", and many newer heavy rock/metal songs use drop "D", "C#" or "C" tunings.
Doubling synth lines can also now be achieved.
A five tuned BEADG will give you access to all of this.
Two other tunings of note;
EADGC (the regular 4 with a high "C")
DGCFBb (as above, but de-tuned a tone)

[aende]

Okay - Thanks for the info all.

So, it is more about technique change to accommodate the low 'b'; and setup of equipment to accommodate the low resonance.

I will have another go on it; preferably when I am not in a rehearsal time. I think I needed to set the amp eq up very different than I have set up for the 4 string (my Warwick is passive too).

[Fat Rich]

Also has a lot to do with the kind of music you play. Playing the low B can make it sound like the bottom has dropped out of the song so you need to be sure it's enhancing the song and not detracting from it.

It also helps if there's a bit of space in the music to get the low notes across, they can get lost if you're band has a busy sound.

Even if you've no intention of buying a 5 string at the moment I'd still suggest going into a shop and trying a few. There are plenty out there with fast necks, decent spacing and a tight, focussed sounding low B.

[V4lve]

I have small hands and find a 5 easier to play for two reasons . The strings are closer together and because of the low B I can spend less time up the dusty end where frets are closer together.

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='aende' timestamp='1359718350' post='1959211']
Okay - Thanks for the info all.

So, it is more about technique change to accommodate the low 'b'; and setup of equipment to accommodate the low resonance.

I will have another go on it; preferably when I am not in a rehearsal time. I think I needed to set the amp eq up very different than I have set up for the 4 string (my Warwick is passive too).
[/quote]

Don't try to push the bass end too much. Our perception of low notes is heavily determined by the first and second harmonic content, so have a look at how you EQ the 60-120Hz region. Try to avoid as low as 50Hz, as that frequency tends to excite a room mode that corresponds to a common dimension in many rooms- an 8ft ceiling- and that will cause evil boominess.
Also revisit how/where you position your amp/cab. Sticking it in a corner may well lift the bottom end a bit due to boundary reinforcement, but may not give the sound you want. Experimentation is key for this one!

[icastle]

If you think about 'how' you hit the strings on a 4 string, you (hopefully) exert some control and hit them differently - same thing with a 5 string.

As for volume differences, I use my B string as an indicator that the set needs changing - it's always that one that goes dead first.
You can compensate to a certain degree by adjusting your pickup height so that you get a more balanced response across the set.

My biggest pet 'hate' is listening to someone playing a 5 string and simply creating a sonic 'boom' - IMO it should be used to provide timely and sympathetic texture to a piece of music, not just walloped at every possible juncture because it's there.

As others have already pointed out here, the Ibanez SR range do have narrow, slim necks that take a little bit of getting used to, but if\when you do get used to it they're really nice to play.

[lowdowner]

[quote name='geoffbyrne' timestamp='1359715079' post='1959105']
I play all 5ers (I have 3) and for me, it's not really about the Low B (I often use the low D, but rarely go below) - it's more about the technique of playing [i]across[/i] the fretboard rather than up & down it. It enables me to figure out a way to play a song & then, if the key needs changed, it's easy to simply move that pattern up or down the fretboard.

String spacing on a 5 or 6 is always going to be narrower than on a 4 - you have to deal with it or go back to 4s. I have a fairly small hand and I don't have fingers like sausages so that helps.

Certainly, more amplification would help you. As you probably know, each octave you drop demands twice the power to maintain the same volume, so the low B needs a fair bit of power and suitable drivers to cope.

G.
[/quote]

This is definitely true for me.

On a 4 string I often found the difference in tone between open strings and fretted strings to be too noticeable - I wanted consistency. And also, for some tunes, the movements up and down the neck could make the line seem disjointed in sound (and sometimes, I'm ashamed to say, gappy!) With a 5 string you can often move the notes around the neck to both avoid open strings (or open strings in an odd place where their tone just doesn't fit) and you can often minimise movement and concentrate on a tight, compact, and smooth pattern without all the neck shifts.

A good example is Floyd's Money - if you play this on a 4 string, there is a shift during the first section where the famous riff moves up to frets 7 to 10 on the A,D,G strings and then back down again to first position. On a 5 stringer, because the lowest note of the riff now fits on the 'B' string, you can play both patterns up at the 7-10 frets without moving your left hand at all. It's smoother and sounds more coherent.

As many people have said, a 5 stringer isn't really about the lower pitches, more about the flexibility in where you play your existing notes and the options it gives you. All your box patterns become compact and efficient (well, more so), and you can stay stationary on the neck or *choose* to move around.

I should say that I'm new to 5 strings so I'm learning about this stuff, but I'm loving it

Edited February 2, 2013 by lowdowner

[Matt P]

For me a 5 string is all about versatility, I play in church a lot and there seem to be loads of songs in e flat, the low b means that a descending bassline that was written on an organ can be played properly. I also love it for songs in e as it gives me a fretted low e.
I will agree that not all 5 strings are equal. But there are some great budget ones available.

Matt

[stingrayPete1977]

We do this version of feel good inc, a great example of how a 5 can sound great used as a 5, it has that sound on the other strings that some people cant get on with but used in the right context it sounds ace! (dont listen on ipod/laptop etc) There is an open B under a lovely guitar chord where it all drops out that makes playing a 5 worthwhile all on its own

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Uv0rOcdqdA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Uv0rOcdqdA[/url]


On the other hand I also love being able to learn a song once in one position then being able to shift a whole tone or more without any trouble at all.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='aende' timestamp='1359713806' post='1959079']
So, I had a play on a 5 string bass last night, Ibanez Soundgear variant, and I have a few queries;

1, the low 'B' aside growling the sound up, what can it actually be used for? Percussion? Does anyone retune it to a more useable frequency?
2, String spacing - weird, I tried going between 4 and 5 string bases and it was messy to say the least.
3, Amps and cabs; I was running the 5 string through a 250w head and 210 cab and man, the cab was on the limit with the low 'B' - any tips?

The bass did not have much 'tone' to it - so, are the pickups the all important thing in a 5 string bass - I think it was an Ibanez Soundgear 200 series - active with humbuckers.
[/quote]

1. The extended note range is really useful IME for example in Highway Star there is a run that goes F E Eb D I can play down to the low D instead of having to skip an octave halfway through the run, or I can play Slither without having to drop tune, the list goes on ....

2. Ibanez basses have very narrow spacing, try a status for comparison which has very wide spacing.

3. In reality the fundamental frequencies of a normal bass are starting to roll off by the time you get down to the last 1/2 octave, on the open A and below you are already hearing more upper partials than fundamental (unless your using very specialist gear like barefaced "big" series or acme low-B etc) so going down a few more notes doesn't make much odds so long as the speakers aren't overwhelmed by the subsonic content. Most modern cabs can handle it just fine.

[Myke]

I found this thread really interesting because I have just bought a 5 string after years of saying 'Oh, I'm never going to get one, there's no point' but I was wrong. I just had to learn 'Master Blaster' and during the long run I had to jump from a G to a Bb on the D string to keep the riff getting higher but the day before the gig I got my 5 string and I could play the whole run in the same area on the bass!

Also I learnt the music to a show once before and in one of the songs I had to play a low D which I couldn't do on my 4 string.

Adjusting to the string spacing takes a little while but you get used to it.

Myke

[alyctes]

for me the real reason for fives is that you've got two octaves under your hand, with only a small shift.

For some of the stuff I played in my previous band, I tuned the five up three semitones, D G C F Bb. Gave me a blues 7th under the low E. I'm still not sure that was a good idea, but it gave a lot of heft to E or Em tunes.

[V4lve]

[quote name='Matt P' timestamp='1359797313' post='1960344']
For me a 5 string is all about versatility, I play in church a lot and there seem to be loads of songs in e flat, the low b means that a descending bassline that was written on an organ can be played properly. I also love it for songs in e as it gives me a fretted low e.

Matt
[/quote]
+1