yorks5stringer Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Just got a new very cheap Bass and it sounds out of tune (sharp) as you get higher up the neck. Winding the saddles back as far as they will go towards the back edge of the body still does not make the open string and octave come up the same on the Tuner, on any string ( it's 5'er) although it reduces the disparity. Measuring from the nut to the middle of the contact point of the D saddle, I'm on 33 and 3/4 of an inch ( even with the saddles screwed right back). My immediate thought is the bridge is not correctly sited and from looking under it when I first unpacked the bass ( it was loose) there is no reason not to move it back the errant 1/4 ". Before I drill new holes ( will obviously mark it up and check parallels etc) is there anything I may have missed? Any thoughts would be useful please as I don't want to damage the shiny new finish with holes if I've missed something obvious ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiOgon Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 33&3/4" might be all you need, or not! Measure exactly from the nut to the 12th fret & double it, should be close! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorks5stringer Posted February 1, 2013 Author Share Posted February 1, 2013 33.75" does not give me enough adjustment with the saddles ( they are right back) to get the intonation correct. I know you cannot get it totally spot on.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Well the 12th fret is the exact midpoint between the nut and the bridge saddle. I'd measure from the 12th fret to the nut (that's a fixed reference point), put the saddles to the midway position on the bridge and make sure they are the same distance from the 12th fret as the nut is. That way you've got adjustment in both directions from the centre point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oopsdabassist Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 That sounds like good advice to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mart Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 (edited) Er, I hesitate to disagree with Mr Castle, but I think this is wrong. If you start with the distance from 12th fret to saddle exactly the same as the distance from the 12th fret to the nut, then there are no circumstances in which you'd need to move the saddle towards the nut. Intonation is all about compensating for the way a string gets stretched when you fret a note, so you need to move the saddle back from the equidistant position to balance this. Even with the thinnest strings and the lowest action imaginable, you will still stretch a string when you fret a note, so you need to move the saddle back to compensate. There is no way you would ever need to move the saddle forward from this equidistant position. Based on that logic, you should put the saddles right at the front of your bridge (towards the nut), and then site the bridge so that the saddle-12th distance is the same as 12th-nut, since that gives you the maximum range of usable intonation adjustment. Anyway, before you get to moving the bridge, have you tried changing the strings? Without knowing anything about your bass, I'd say it's more likely that the previous owner out a dodgy set of strings on, than that the factory put the bridge in the wrong place. (And I say that despite having once had to move the bridge on a bass because the factory had put it in the wrong place! ) Edited February 2, 2013 by mart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Rock Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 I didn't know that about the stretching, but it makes perfect sense. Thanks for the education :-) I had idly wondered why the heavier the gauge, the further back it tends to go. Now I know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 [quote name='yorks5stringer' timestamp='1359746509' post='1959892'] Just got a new very cheap Bass and it sounds out of tune (sharp) as you get higher up the neck. Winding the saddles back as far as they will go towards the back edge of the body still does not make the open string and octave come up the same on the Tuner, on any string ( it's 5'er) although it reduces the disparity. Measuring from the nut to the middle of the contact point of the D saddle, I'm on 33 and 3/4 of an inch ( even with the saddles screwed right back). My immediate thought is the bridge is not correctly sited and from looking under it when I first unpacked the bass ( it was loose) there is no reason not to move it back the errant 1/4 ". Before I drill new holes ( will obviously mark it up and check parallels etc) is there anything I may have missed? Any thoughts would be useful please as I don't want to damage the shiny new finish with holes if I've missed something obvious ! [/quote] Try new strings first! I experienced this once... and a new set of strings sorted it. Same gauge and all. If you have a very high action... sort that first, as higher action results in a need for more compensation at the bridge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lettsguitars Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 If the action is too high that will also screw with intonation. Moving the bridge back half an inch would sort it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 There's no guarantee that the scale length is actually 34". There are plenty of basses where it's not. First accurately define the scale length. It is twice the distance from the nut (or zero fret if there is one) to the twelfth fret. These two points are fixed so it's easy to measure. Once you have the actual scale length of the neck you can check if it is possible to get the bridge saddle is the correct place. If it is then fit some good new strings, because old strings get worn by contact with the frets and over time become more difficult to intonate. If the bridge does appear to be in the wrong position I'd be checking the accuracy of the actual fret positions first before proceeding any further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorks5stringer Posted February 2, 2013 Author Share Posted February 2, 2013 Brand new bass with brand new strings and the action is quite low......! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubrad Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 How cheap is cheap? Anything under a couple of hundred for a 5 string and I'd change the strings as a matter of course. If it's new, I'd have it back to the shop and let them worry about it! If it doesn't work properly it needs to be ridiculously cheap as a project.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 So what's the distance from the nut to the 12th fret? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorks5stringer Posted February 2, 2013 Author Share Posted February 2, 2013 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1359816795' post='1960700'] So what's the distance from the nut to the 12th fret? [/quote] 17" and 16.75" to the contact point on the saddles in the bridge! Reckon it needs to go back 1/4" and its not straight too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 [quote name='yorks5stringer' timestamp='1359821037' post='1960770'] 17" and 16.75" to the contact point on the saddles in the bridge! Reckon it needs to go back 1/4" and its not straight too! [/quote] OK. If the saddles are as far back as they will go then the bridge is in the wrong place. [quote name='yorks5stringer' timestamp='1359815971' post='1960683'] Brand new bass with brand new strings and the action is quite low......! [/quote] Stop messing about trying to fix it and take the bass back to the shop where you bought it and get them to swap it for a new one which has the bridge in the right place. Don't settle for a repair. If they can't do a replacement get your money back. Instruments these days should be made properly no matter how inexpensive they are. Besides if they can't do something simple like fitting the bridge in the right place who knows what else is wrong with it that may well show up later on - maybe after the guarantee has run out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorks5stringer Posted February 2, 2013 Author Share Posted February 2, 2013 It was £60 plus postage new, once the bridge is straight and set correctly I'm sure it will be fine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 [quote name='yorks5stringer' timestamp='1359815971' post='1960683'] Brand new bass with brand new strings and the action is quite low......! [/quote] the brand new strings may be not very good... try your favourite se first. I know it sounds strange, but I have experienced very weird intonation issues that came down to the strings, nothing else, even ones that looked pretty new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 [quote name='mart' timestamp='1359796030' post='1960328'] Er, I hesitate to disagree with Mr Castle, but I think this is wrong. If you start with the distance from 12th fret to saddle exactly the same as the distance from the 12th fret to the nut, then there are no circumstances in which you'd need to move the saddle towards the nut. Intonation is all about compensating for the way a string gets stretched when you fret a note, so you need to move the saddle back from the equidistant position to balance this. Even with the thinnest strings and the lowest action imaginable, you will still stretch a string when you fret a note, so you need to move the saddle back to compensate. There is no way you would ever need to move the saddle forward from this equidistant position. [/quote] No need to hesitate mate, nobody else ever does! Intonation is affected by a lot of factors and, as you quite rightly say, the action is one of them. It's also the diameter of the string which is why the saddles on a correctly setup bass are never in a straight line. That's why I chose the halfway point, if you make your 'starting off point' too rigid then you'll never be able to correctly intonate a different gauge of string. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mart Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 [quote name='icastle' timestamp='1359826413' post='1960873'] No need to hesitate mate, nobody else ever does! .... [/quote] Ok, I'll disagree then! I agree that there are a number of factors behind setting the intonation (e.g. action, string diameter, string tension, and how hard you tend to press down on the strings when you play, which is why intonation is always a personal setting). But all of these factors go into determining [i]how much[/i] you stretch the string when you fret a note. Nothing changes the fact that you are stretching it, to some degree, so the saddle needs to be moved backwards to compensate, but never forwards (from that "equidistant" position). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 [quote name='mart' timestamp='1359836183' post='1961054'] Ok, I'll disagree then! I agree that there are a number of factors behind setting the intonation (e.g. action, string diameter, string tension, and how hard you tend to press down on the strings when you play, which is why intonation is always a personal setting). But all of these factors go into determining [i]how much[/i] you stretch the string when you fret a note. Nothing changes the fact that you are stretching it, to some degree, so the saddle needs to be moved backwards to compensate, but never forwards (from that "equidistant" position). [/quote] I disagree with your disgree... If you have the saddles all the way forwards as your neutral starting off point then that'll be fine (we hope) for the gauge of strings and action that is set when the bass leaves the factory. Problem with that is that it ties you into a set action and a set string gauge... and you know how picky and finickety bass players can be... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorks5stringer Posted February 3, 2013 Author Share Posted February 3, 2013 Job done! Measured it all up and the bridge is now 1/2" further back which allows the contact point on the D string saddle to be exactly on 34". Needless to say intonation now spot on too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 Nice! Glad you got it sorted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mart Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 (edited) Glad you got it sorted! I still disagree with icastle, and really not seeing the argument I'm afraid. I'm really talking about a situation where there are no strings on the bass: the position of the bridge that I'm proposing is based on the nut-12th fret distance. Set the saddles at the same distance from the 12th as the 12th is from the nut, then [i]whatever[/i] strings you put on, you'll need to move back from that position in order to set the intonation. Because whatever strings you have, you will [i]stretch[/i] them when you fret a note, not [i]shrink[/i] them! If you set the saddles in the middle of the range then, then you will lose half your adjustment range because you would never ever need to move the saddles forward of that equidistant position. In other words, take any correctly intonated bass, with any scale length, any strings, whatever, and you will find that the distance from saddle to 12th fret, on every string, is longer than the distance from 12th to nut. It may be only a little longer (if you have small, low tension strings, with very low action), but it will NEVER be shorter. Still disagreeing? Edited February 3, 2013 by mart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 [quote name='mart' timestamp='1359927297' post='1962259'] Still disagreeing? [/quote] Yep but only 'cos it's making you sound all Scottish. It really depends on how much less of a stretch it takes to fret the note than it did when the guitar was originally setup. If you shove all the saddles right forward and then mount it in the correct location, you'll get the correct intonation for that set of strings at that action. Lower the action or use a different gauge of strings (so exerting less stretch than you had to use on the previous setup) and you'll not have anywhere to go with the saddles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin_lindsay Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Hey iCastle, I'm glad you've never set up any of my instruments!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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